Old AD 98-02-08

Tom-D

Tom-D

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Tom-D
Which engines does it apply to?

98-02-08 Textron Lycoming: Amendment 39-10291. Docket 94-ANE-44.
Applicability: Textron Lycoming 320 series limited to 160 horsepower, and 360 series, four cylinder reciprocating engines with fixed pitch propellers; except for the following installed in helicopters or with solid crankshafts: HO-360 series, HIO-360 series, LHIO-360 series, VO-360 series, and IVO-360 series, and Models O-320-B2C, O-360-J2A, AEIO-360-B4A, O-360-A4A, -A4G, -A4J, -A4K, -A4M, and -C4F. In addition, engines with crankshafts containing "PID" stamped on the outside diameter of the propeller flange are exempt from the inspection requirements of this AD.

Does this AD apply to 150 horse power 0-320-E2D
 
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When I look at the AD, I see this:
“AD 98-02-08 applies to”
you do not?
 
Tom-D said:
Thank you, it seems many A&P-IAs have been reading this AD wrong, thinking it only applied to 160 horse.
The link you gave is the clarification of that misunderstanding.
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I didn’t read the link I posted closely and I haven’t had an airplane it applied to for quite some time, but last I remember I seem have interpreted it to only apply to 160hp engines too. I may be one of those guys you’re referring to, I will have to go look at it tonight.

Would it be possible that the 150hp engines are only affected if they have been converted to 160hp?
 
mondtster said:
I didn’t read the link I posted closely and I haven’t had an airplane it applied to for quite some time, but last I remember I seem have interpreted it to only apply to 160hp engines too. I may be one of those guys you’re referring to, I will have to go look at it tonight.

Would it be possible that the 150hp engines are only affected if they have been converted to 160hp?
Click to expand...

It applies to all 0-320-. if. it does not have a solid crank.
 
not to say either way but this was posted on the shortwing piper forum 8 years ago.

I had to call the gentleman listed in this A.D. itself for a "closer determination" when the A.D. first came out, because my FSDO interpreted it as applying to the 150 hp engines as well. I was told BY THE AUTHOR of the A.D. that my thinking was correct, that the only reason possible for the "notation" about "limited to 160 hp models" was -since there are ONLY 150 and 160 hp versions of the O-320s- to LIMIT the effectivity to the 160 hp versions exclusively. He expressed a notable frustration with having to explain this SO MANY TIMES and remarked that if it wasn't so much like "moving a mountain", he would have rewritten it to specifically "NOT" apply to 150 hp engines, in those words. The inspection is limited to the 160 engines ONLY for aircraft that are NOT operated "for hire".

also if you read the entire text of the ad, this is in the preamble information...

"One commenter states that the AD should take into consideration the operation and service history for each engine in specifying corrective action. The FAA partially concurs. The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater."
 
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unsafervguy said:
not to say either way but this was posted on the shortwing piper forum 8 years ago.

I had to call the gentleman listed in this A.D. itself for a "closer determination" when the A.D. first came out, because my FSDO interpreted it as applying to the 150 hp engines as well. I was told BY THE AUTHOR of the A.D. that my thinking was correct, that the only reason possible for the "notation" about "limited to 160 hp models" was -since there are ONLY 150 and 160 hp versions of the O-320s- to LIMIT the effectivity to the 160 hp versions exclusively. He expressed a notable frustration with having to explain this SO MANY TIMES and remarked that if it wasn't so much like "moving a mountain", he would have rewritten it to specifically "NOT" apply to 150 hp engines, in those words. The inspection is limited to the 160 engines ONLY for aircraft that are NOT operated "for hire".

also if you read the entire text of the ad, this is in the preamble information...

"One commenter states that the AD should take into consideration the operation and service history for each engine in specifying corrective action. The FAA partially concurs. The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater."
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This is the kind of information Tom was talking about, someone writes this without any source of credible backup in writing from the FAA and people believe it. Just how many have gone undone is anyone guess, if for no other reason clean out the crank sludge it gets bad.
 
Tom, if you are having trouble interpreting an AD, I suggest that you talk to your FSDO or call the contact in the AD.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Tom, if you are having trouble interpreting an AD, I suggest that you talk to your FSDO or call the contact in the AD.
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What makes you believe I'm have trouble interpreting the AD?
I posted the clarification all one must do is read the list of engine application.
The FAA has made it clear, that the AD does apply to all 0-320s
 
unsafervguy said:
not to say either way but this was posted on the shortwing piper forum 8 years ago.

I had to call the gentleman listed in this A.D. itself for a "closer determination" when the A.D. first came out, because my FSDO interpreted it as applying to the 150 hp engines as well. I was told BY THE AUTHOR of the A.D. that my thinking was correct, that the only reason possible for the "notation" about "limited to 160 hp models" was -since there are ONLY 150 and 160 hp versions of the O-320s- to LIMIT the effectivity to the 160 hp versions exclusively. He expressed a notable frustration with having to explain this SO MANY TIMES and remarked that if it wasn't so much like "moving a mountain", he would have rewritten it to specifically "NOT" apply to 150 hp engines, in those words. The inspection is limited to the 160 engines ONLY for aircraft that are NOT operated "for hire".

also if you read the entire text of the ad, this is in the preamble information...

"One commenter states that the AD should take into consideration the operation and service history for each engine in specifying corrective action. The FAA partially concurs. The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater."
Click to expand...

According to the applications list posted by the FAA your contact got it wrong. I guess that is why the FAA put out the clarification. They couldn't interpret it either.
 
To be clear for every one, at the time this AD came out I only had 1, 0-320 on my customer list, it was a 160 horse and it was complied with then. Later this engine was overhauled by Zepher Hills and the crank was replaced. I still do that aircraft each year, and the engine is still running great.
 
brien23 said:
This is the kind of information Tom was talking about, someone writes this without any source of credible backup in writing from the FAA and people believe it. Just how many have gone undone is anyone guess, if for no other reason clean out the crank sludge it gets bad.
Click to expand...
I'd venture a guess that the major portion of these hollow crank 0-320 have gone away due to attrition (time and hours) with no casualties proving this was a useless AD to start with.
 
Tom-D said:
What makes you believe I'm have trouble interpreting the AD?
I posted the clarification all one must do is read the list of engine application.
The FAA has made it clear, that the AD does apply to all 0-320s
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Maybe because the very first line in the post of a thread you started asked the question "Which engine does it apply to?"..
 
Grum.Man said:
Maybe because the very first line in the post of a thread you started asked the question "Which engine does it apply to?"..
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Have you ever asked a question when you knew the answer, just to get the conversation started?
 
What about the line from the faa in the preamble of the ad that's says it only applies to 160 hp?

From the text of the AD
One commenter states that the AD should take into consideration the operation and service history for each engine in specifying corrective action. The FAA partially concurs. The FAA has taken into consideration service history and has limited the applicability of this AD to engines with 160 hp or greater

Also from the text

Applicability: Textron Lycoming 320 series limited to 160 horsepower,

Also from the ad:

The total number of engines impacted worldwide is 16,357 (11,000, 160 hp, 320 series; and 5,357, 360 Series). The FAA estimates that 60% of that number, 9,814 engines are installed on aircraft of U.S. registry, and are affected by this AD.

The text of the ad says three times in different places 160hp.


Where did this list you posted com from, it's not in the ad itshelf?
 
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unsafervguy said:
What about the line from the faa in the preamble of the ad that's says it only applies to 160 hp?

The text of the ad says three times in different places 160hp.


Where did this list you posted com from, it's not in the ad itshelf?
Click to expand...

Im assuming you're referring to the list I posted. All I did was google it and post the first link I found from the FAA.

I quickly scanned the AD again the other night and came to the same conclusion you did, the AD clearly states it only applies to the 160hp engines.

Further research turned up this letter from RAM, who holds a 160hp STC for certain engines and airframes. Their interpretation would imply that the AD only applies to the 160hp engines as well.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Service-Bulletins-and-ADs/SL2003-01.htm

As I asked previously, perhaps the FAA listed the applicability as including the 150hp engine models because of the potential that they were modified to be 160hp engines?

What happens to the 150hp engine data plate if a 160hp STC or other alteration is made? Lycoming has guidance for this.
 
Note the date of issuance of the clarification, Feb-18
No this letter was not a part of the Original AD.
When you read the applications list given, you'll see it covers all models that has a hollow crank, even the 150 horse power. Also note there are only 2 horse power versions of the 0-320 150 and 160.
 
Tom-D said:
Note the date of issuance of the clarification, Feb-18
No this letter was not a part of the Original AD.
When you read the applications list given, you'll see it covers all models that has a hollow crank, even the 150 horse power. Also note there are only 2 horse power versions of the 0-320 150 and 160.
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then this is a matter for the lawyers, they cannot change the ad without a revision and publishing it in the federal register. The ad clearly states 160 hp, that cannot be changed without a revision as called for by law. There are a lot of ads issued that have applications listed that do not apply to every model listed. The latest piper fuel ad is an example. The list states all piper pa28 serial numbers but not all those serial numbers have that selector so it does not apply to those. Until a new ad is issued, I stand by the fact that the ad states 160 hp, if you have a 160hp E3D, it applies. A 150hp E3D does not. Ram, who holds the stc for the upgrade stated that years ago.

Until I see something from the chief council I stay with rather ad as written.
 
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unsafervguy said:
then this is a matter for the lawyers, they cannot change the ad without a revision and publishing it in the federal register. The ad clearly states 160 hp, that cannot be changed without a revision as called for by law. There are a lot of ads issued that have applications listed that do not apply to every model listed. The latest piper fuel ad is an example. The list states all piper pa28 serial numbers but not all those serial numbers have that selector so it does not apply to those. Until a new ad is issued, I stand by the fact that the ad states 160 hp, if you have a 160hp E3D, it applies. A 150hp E3D does not. Ram, who holds the stc for the upgrade stated that years ago.

Until I see something from the chief council I stay with rather ad as written.
Click to expand...

That is exactly my position on it.
 
unsafervguy said:
then this is a matter for the lawyers, they cannot change the ad without a revision and publishing it in the federal register. The ad clearly states 160 hp, that cannot be changed without a revision as called for by law. There are a lot of ads issued that have applications listed that do not apply to every model listed. The latest piper fuel ad is an example. The list states all piper pa28 serial numbers but not all those serial numbers have that selector so it does not apply to those. Until a new ad is issued, I stand by the fact that the ad states 160 hp, if you have a 160hp E3D, it applies. A 150hp E3D does not. Ram, who holds the stc for the upgrade stated that years ago.

Until I see something from the chief council I stay with rather ad as written.
Click to expand...
The application is direct from the FAA, who do you believe the chief counsel is?
What can I tell ya, the FAA says your interpretation is wrong. and the AD applies to all 0-320s 150 and 160 horse power.
 
mondtster said:
I quickly scanned the AD again the other night and came to the same conclusion you did, the AD clearly states it only applies to the 160hp engines.
Click to expand...
THat's not what the FAA thinks it says, Who counts?

They believe it applies to all 0-320s up to and including the 160 horse
 
mondtster said:
Im assuming you're referring to the list I posted. All I did was google it and post the first link I found from the FAA.

I quickly scanned the AD again the other night and came to the same conclusion you did, the AD clearly states it only applies to the 160hp engines.

Further research turned up this letter from RAM, who holds a 160hp STC for certain engines and airframes. Their interpretation would imply that the AD only applies to the 160hp engines as well.

http://www.ramaircraft.com/Service-Bulletins-and-ADs/SL2003-01.htm

As I asked previously, perhaps the FAA listed the applicability as including the 150hp engine models because of the potential that they were modified to be 160hp engines?

What happens to the 150hp engine data plate if a 160hp STC or other alteration is made? Lycoming has guidance for this.
Click to expand...

From the AD,
Note 1: This airworthiness directive (AD) applies to each engine identified in the preceding applicability provision, regardless of whether it has been modified, altered, or repaired in the area subject to the requirements of this AD. For engines that have been modified, altered, or repaired so that the performance of the requirements of this AD is affected, the owner/operator must request approval for an alternative method of compliance in accordance with paragraph (g) of this AD.

OBTW,, the applicability provision now includes all 0-320s with hollow cranks.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I didn't need to. I was not the one looking for guidance. You were.
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Had you read it you would have known your post wasn't necessary, and not wasted every ones time.

If you'er going to eavesdrop, pay attention.
 
So if it's a 160hp with pits and cracks in the crank the AD applies if the same crank in 150hp has pits and cracks it does not. Their must be some logic that those who do not think it applies to the 150hp have and ignore the application list.
 
brien23 said:
So if it's a 160hp with pits and cracks in the crank the AD applies if the same crank in 150hp has pits and cracks it does not. Their must be some logic that those who do not think it applies to the 150hp have and ignore the application list.
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It says right in the supplementary information it was issued based on cracking reports of 160 and up engines, even says they considered adding O-235 and O-290 to the AD but never did.
 
bnt83 said:
It says right in the supplementary information it was issued based on cracking reports of 160 and up engines, even says they considered adding O-235 and O-290 to the AD but never did.
Click to expand...
It may say that in the preamble, but it does not say that in the AD.
 
bnt83 said:
View attachment 62003
Click to expand...
Doesn't read the same does it?

It limits the horse power at 160 which means it can't go higher, but does include all under the limit. It does not say "ONLY" 160 horse power, to go higher the engine will have a solid crank anyway, and a different designation.


as per the application list. The 0-320-E2D was the engine in question, I picked it for the simple reason it is a 150 horse and it is on the application list. Read the list in post 2
 
Tom-D said:
Doesn't read the same does it?

It limits the horse power at 160 which means it can't go higher, but does include all under the limit. It does not say "ONLY" 160 horse power, to go higher the engine will have a solid crank anyway, and a different designation.


as per the application list. The 0-320-E2D was the engine in question, I picked it for the simple reason it is a 150 horse and it is on the application list. Read the list in post 2
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That reference in post #2 looks like something an intern entered into a database to make them searchable by make & model, hardly regulatory information, or all inclusive.
 
bnt83 said:
That reference in post #2 looks like something an intern entered into a database to make them searchable by make & model, hardly regulatory information, or all inclusive.
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Did you notice in that paragraph that the engines that are exempt are listed. See any 150 horse engine listed as exempt?

Post 2's link is the applications list for the AD, and shows what engine this AD applies to.
Read it and weep, the 150s are all there.
 
Tom-D said:
Did you notice in that paragraph that the engines that are exempt are listed. See any 150 horse engine listed as exempt?
Click to expand...

According to you and that link in post #2 every engine on that list must have the crankshaft inner bore inspected?
 
bnt83 said:
According to you and that link in post #2 every engine on that list must have the crankshaft inner bore inspected?
Click to expand...
exactly..
You see the end of that crank, and it has a plug, this AD applies.
 
Tom-D said:
exactly..
You see the end of that crank, and it has a plug, this AD applies.
Click to expand...

So your saying even tho that table in post #2 says IO360A1A, its installed in a Mooney with a constant speed prop it must be inspected?


The answer is no, because the text of the AD says only applies to engines with fixed pitch props, just like is says 160hp o-320 series installed with fixed pitch props are affected.​
 
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bnt83 said:
So your saying even tho that table in post #2 says IO360A1A, its installed in a Mooney with a constant speed prop it must be inspected?


The answer is no, because the text of the AD says only applies to engines with fixed pitch props, just like is says 160hp o-320 series installed with fixed pitch props are affected.​
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Didn't you just answer your own question? If it is exempted by the AD, what's the problem? are all A1As pushing constant speed props, or can they have a fixed pitch on them?
 
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