OK, so now how about ice?

[spiderweb]

Tomorrow I am definitely going to fly in the afternoon. The weather will be just fine with the lowest ceiling being at 40. The winds will be up, but not as bad as before. Anyway, my neck feels better, so I don't care. BUT, I wanted to do a short IFR hop to OKV, and it looks like I will get IMC. IMC, I want, but I-C-E, I do NOT want. I am looking at the ADDS site and trying to formulate an outlook. I do know that surface temps will be about 6-8 C, so if I did get anything by accident, there would be a good chance for it to melt.

Please advise, because if the danger of ice is there, I will just stay VFR.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

What is the lowest ceiling forecast to be, where is this Ben?

 

[spiderweb]

What is the lowest ceiling forecast to be, where is this Ben?

4,000 BKN. Frederick, Maryland (KFDK) to Winchester, Virginia (KOKV).

 

[EdFred]

Ben that's gonna be a stay under the clouds day. 4000' -2C/1000 that means -2C to 0C at 4000' What happens to water at 0C???

 

[spiderweb]

Ben that's gonna be a stay under the clouds day. 4000' -2C/1000 that means -2C to 0C at 4000' What happens to water at 0C???

Where did you get that temp? EKN is supposed to be a 0 degrees C at 6,000 tomorrow after 18Z (when I'm up).

 

[121Dispatch]

Ben,

That number comes from a standard temperature lapse rate...2C/1000'. In a stable atmosphere, the temp usually drops a bit slower (~1c/1000'), and with an unstable atmosphere, expect the temps to drop a bit faster/1000'. (~3-4c/1000').

Ice is one of my top demons...I like to leave a pretty good margin (about 5 degrees) above 0c if I'm flying IMC.

 

[SkykingC310]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but...

I think you should fly in the clouds and pick up some ice so that you know what it's like. If there is ice at 6000, file for 6000. Learn something. Know how your aircraft handles with a trace of ice, an 1/8", 1/4"...

If it's not looking good, simply request lower, and ATC will get you down. There are ways to experience in-flight icing safely. Here in the Northwest, it's rare to have an IMC flight without ice. All I'm suggesting is that you don't want your first icing experience to be a surprise.

Just my two cents,

Adam

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Assuming MEA is lower than the bases.

 

[spiderweb]

Ben,

That number comes from a standard temperature lapse rate...2C/1000'. In a stable atmosphere, the temp usually drops a bit slower (~1c/1000'), and with an unstable atmosphere, expect the temps to drop a bit faster/1000'. (~3-4c/1000').

Ice is one of my top demons...I like to leave a pretty good margin (about 5 degrees) above 0c if I'm flying IMC.

Right--standard lapse rate. And here I am scouring the web for a freezing level when I could have made that calculation!

 

[spiderweb]

Assuming MEA is lower than the bases.

They will be, but the OROCAs aren't.

 

[wsuffa]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but...

I think you should fly in the clouds and pick up some ice so that you know what it's like. If there is ice at 6000, file for 6000. Learn something. Know how your aircraft handles with a trace of ice, an 1/8", 1/4"...

If it's not looking good, simply request lower, and ATC will get you down. There are ways to experience in-flight icing safely. Here in the Northwest, it's rare to have an IMC flight without ice. All I'm suggesting is that you don't want your first icing experience to be a surprise.

Just my two cents,

Adam

I disagree. Completely. No sense practicing bleeding.

On top of that, Ben's flying close to and around the Washington ADIZ, and across the arrival/departure corridors for Dulles. You absolutely cannot count on getting a different altitude in that area. And declaring an emergency will not be well taken.

Finally, as if it's not enough to just stay out of icing altogether, Ben's unlikely to get much more than 4000 - 6000 feet for that short flight in any event. See above statement about proximity to Dulles and the ADIZ.

Ben, expect routing up over Martinsburg. On the return, you might get Westminster, unless you accept a visual. BTDT.

bill

 

[spiderweb]

I disagree. Completely. No sense practicing bleeding.

On top of that, Ben's flying close to and around the Washington ADIZ, and across the arrival/departure corridors for Dulles. You absolutely cannot count on getting a different altitude in that area. And declaring an emergency will not be well taken.

Finally, as if it's not enough to just stay out of icing altogether, Ben's unlikely to get much more than 4000 - 6000 feet for that short flight in any event. See above statement about proximity to Dulles and the ADIZ.

Ben, expect routing up over Martinsburg. On the return, you might get Westminster, unless you accept a visual. BTDT.

bill

That's the routing I usually get.

 

[wsuffa]

Tomorrow I am definitely going to fly in the afternoon. The weather will be just fine with the lowest ceiling being at 40. The winds will be up, but not as bad as before. Anyway, my neck feels better, so I don't care. BUT, I wanted to do a short IFR hop to OKV, and it looks like I will get IMC. IMC, I want, but I-C-E, I do NOT want. I am looking at the ADDS site and trying to formulate an outlook. I do know that surface temps will be about 6-8 C, so if I did get anything by accident, there would be a good chance for it to melt.

Please advise, because if the danger of ice is there, I will just stay VFR.

Ben,

The icing predictions on ADDS only go out about 12 hours. Looking at the 7 AM plots, I would NOT fly at 6,000. At 3,000, the plots are showing some chance of icing at 3,000....

I would look in the morning, and shortly before flight. This may very well be a VFR day.

bill

 

[SkykingC310]

Alright Bill, put some ice in your shorts and chill out. Of course I wouldn't tell someone to get into an emergency situation just for the experience. Use some common sense. And Your comment about an emergency not being appreciated...I'm sure it's never anyone's intention to have an in-flight emergency. If I truly have one, my first thought is not, "Oh my...what will ATC think...they're not going to appreciate this."

 

[Dave Siciliano]

If I were to experiment with getting ice on the plane (and my plane is K-ice), this is not where I'd do it. Find a day where ceilings are much higher and the temperature below is much warmer in less congested space.
Ben is not flying a K-ice plane and is a fairly new instrument pilot.

Best,

Dave

 

[James_Dean]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but...

I think you should fly in the clouds and pick up some ice so that you know what it's like. If there is ice at 6000, file for 6000. Learn something. Know how your aircraft handles with a trace of ice, an 1/8", 1/4"...

If it's not looking good, simply request lower, and ATC will get you down. There are ways to experience in-flight icing safely. Here in the Northwest, it's rare to have an IMC flight without ice. All I'm suggesting is that you don't want your first icing experience to be a surprise.

Just my two cents,

Adam

Strongly disagree. I was given this oportunity while flying with my instructor working on my IR. We descended into IMC where icing was not forcast. We entered the clouds and immediately started picking up ice. We stayed for a little bit to "experience icing". Five minutes later we were looking for an out. Seven minutes later we were at full power and descending, not by choice. We broke out at 1500 and started to shed ice. We landed at 100 kts and full power. This was in a Saratoga.

YOU WILL GET DEAD PLAYING WITH ICE IN A NON KI PLANE! IF YOU ENCOUNTER ICE GET OUT NOW!

Sorry for the rant, but this "see what it's like" tactic almost cost me my life.

James Dean

 

[wsuffa]

Alright Bill, put some ice in your shorts and chill out. Of course I wouldn't tell someone to get into an emergency situation just for the experience. Use some common sense. And Your comment about an emergency not being appreciated...I'm sure it's never anyone's intention to have an in-flight emergency. If I truly have one, my first thought is not, "Oh my...what will ATC think...they're not going to appreciate this."

Adam, with all due respect, that airspace is NOT the place to expect to get a clearance lower. You proposed he pick up ice for the "experience" and that ATC will let him down.

IF he were that high across that corridor, he would NOT be automatically cleared lower due to IAD traffic. Unless he used the "E" word. Maybe in your part of the world it will happen. It won't happen in that corridor.

(It also won't happen near Chicago - I've been there and seen that in real life when ATC sent a twin cessna at an altitude where he picked up ice, and there was no where else to put him).

Sorry, we've just been through this on another board. You suggested that Ben go and pick up ice for practice. I'm here to tell you that (aside from being a dumb move anywhere) it's a really dumb move in that area because there is nowhere else to go.

 

[wsuffa]

That's the routing I usually get.

Ben, the temp charts on ADDS show below freezing at all altitudes for early afternoon through there. You might want to plan VFR.

 

[SkykingC310]

Dave, I agree that there is a time and place and that the Washington ADIZ is not the place, but there are ways to safely experience ice.

James, I'm sorry you had a bad experience. It may not have been forecast, but what did your O.A.T. read?

Being an ass 'cause I like to argue.

 

[James_Dean]

James, I'm sorry you had a bad experience. It may not have been forecast, but what did your O.A.T. read?

Non-sequitor. You're the one advocating a dangerous practice. If you're going to send someone off to find icing why does it matter what my OAT was. Does that somehow indicate the intensity of the icing?


I'm sorry, but in my not so humble opinion, you're giving very dangerous advice.

BTW, OAT was 35 before the descent. The cloud layer was 31 - 32. The air below was 38 - 40.

James Dean

 

[bbchien]

Non-sequitor. You're the one advocating a dangerous practice. If you're going to send someone off to find icing why does it matter what my OAT was. Does that somehow indicate the intensity of the icing?


I'm sorry, but in my not so humble opinion, you're giving very dangerous advice.

BTW, OAT was 35 before the descent. The cloud layer was 31 - 32. The air below was 38 - 40.

James Dean

Well, Ben you have to get out here in the midwest in the winter and do it in a K-ice bird...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Every now & then you might just happen to ice up in non-forecast, non-known IMC icing conditions and be able to feel what it's like, then descend into warmer conditions below, like over the less cold salt water around Seattle where I've been in it a handful of times like that. To try to actually plan it in a non-K plane would be almost impossibly dangerous and against the regs in most cases.

Go up in a K aircraft with somebody and you can get more than your fill that way.

 

[gismo]

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but...

I think you should fly in the clouds and pick up some ice so that you know what it's like. If there is ice at 6000, file for 6000. Learn something. Know how your aircraft handles with a trace of ice, an 1/8", 1/4"...

If it's not looking good, simply request lower, and ATC will get you down. There are ways to experience in-flight icing safely. Here in the Northwest, it's rare to have an IMC flight without ice. All I'm suggesting is that you don't want your first icing experience to be a surprise.

Just my two cents,

Adam

I see no problem climbing into the clouds, but if you do find ice either climb above the ice (another 4000 will usually do it unless there's convective activity or significant orthographic lifting), descend back out of the clouds (don't go in if this isn't an option due to terrain or SUA), or turn around. I wouldn't stay in the ice to "see how the plane behaves" because 1> it will behave differently next time anyway (no two icing encounters are identical) 2> It may "behave" rather poorly in unpredictable ways. 3> the more ice you accumulate the longer it will take to disappear. Having at least a couple thousand feet of above freezing temps between you and the ground should give plenty of margin if you catch a little ice. If you stay in long enough to collect a bunch, you'd better hope it melts fast!

 

[SkykingC310]

Apparently I've hit a sore spot in many of you.

 

[Greebo]

I dunno - don't think anyone sounds sore - just adamant in their opinions.

Personally, I think the best way to experience ice is to let someone else experience it and learn from them. Posthumously if necessary. I've got lots of experience from other people that say messing around with ice is risky business, and I can't help but remember the saying about old pilots vs. bold pilots...

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Personally, I think the best way to experience ice is to let someone else experience it and learn from them.

I like mine best in a glass at the bar, surrounded by pilot friends.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Doesn't look like you ll have the opportunity, the fip shows none at any altitudes early afternoon (if one is to believe that) and besides, the bases are lifting on the forecasts
Is this really a ~70 mile flight? You won't hardly be up there long enough!
PS the airmet only extends to this am. Have a nice flight!

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Ben, looking at the icing forecasts and the weather out my window this morning I'd go--YMMV--but for the record, I'm an icing chicken.

 

[grattonja]

Sky clear Vis unlimited here above the ADIZ this am. Good local practice weather up here.

As to climbing into a cold cloud in the winter in that 182 you rent Ben? I've done it in a skyhawk, in non-airmet conditions, and found rime. It accrues quickly, you get real slow. The aircraft starts to shake as the prop slings ice off. You are unable to climb by the time you want to climb. I had fairly high ceilings below and warmer air than you will have today. Still we had to sit in that stuff for a while to clear some mountainous terrain. It is NO FUN, and you don't need to learn that it is stupid. You already know it is stupid to be there. NO offense to any other poster on this board, but having been up in inadvertent icing (and it was light rime not something more serious), I would never advocate for deliberately going up in a non K-ice plane to learn. That kind of learning has a high mortality rate.

If you have clouds on your trip, stay below them. Wait for a nice spring day for some IMC. Maybe Thursday this week if the temps go up as forecast. You might be able to get some safe practice in actual. I'm waiting for temps around here to go up before I "re-wet" my IR.

Jim G

 

[poadeleted20]

Apparently I've hit a sore spot in many of you.

And with the FAA, who will take the ticket of anyone they catch intentionally flying into what they call "known icing conditions" in an aircraft not equipped and certified for such flight. And the FSDO's up your way do not seem to have any "Northwest" exception to the rule -- they recently yanked for 90 days the ticket of a pilot in the Seattle area named David Curtis who launched into conditions much like those described in this thread -- see Administrator v. Curtis for details.

If you want to know what the FAA considers "known icing conditions," I suggest looking at page 10-24 of the Instrument Flying Handbook and paragraph 5 of Advisory Circular 91-51A. The FAA's position is that the risks of disaster outweigh any potential gain from intentional flight into known icing conditions in aircraft not equipped and certified for such flight -- even to give someone an idea of what icing looks/feels like as a training exercise. As noted by another, this is considered too much like having combat troops practice bleeding in training.

 

[ggroves]

Ben, looking at the icing forecasts and the weather out my window this morning I'd go--YMMV--but for the record, I'm an icing chicken.

Agreed. Come on out to OKV, Ben. The forecast for this PM looks pretty good. Scattered 5 - 10, becoming broken 10.

Greg
182RG

 

[Bill]

I'm waiting for temps around here to go up before I "re-wet" my IR.

I'm in the same boat as you guys, wanting to get my recent IR more wet, but known ice isn't the time to try.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Adam:

I have a friend with a V-tail Bonanza that did just what you suggested. Of course, he was technically illegal, but he was a former airline captain and had a lot of other experience. He went up on an day where the ceilings were relatively high and had plenty of room to descend into warm air below if he had problems. Climbed into the clouds with a block altitude clearance and came down several times with different amounts of ice on the plane to see how it handled.

I don't think any instructor should be doing this with a student in a non-K-ice AC. Now, if one were to do it, maybe the manner above is a reasonably safe way, but may be in violation of the FARs.

The nerve you struck was just kind of telling a guy with a relatively new IR rating to go into icing conditions in a very busy area where he may not have reasonable outs and may get into an emergency situation. Looks like you have a pretty capable aircraft and probably have a lot of experience. Did you see what Ben proposed flying? Not a 310!!

There were three fatal accidents in Ben's region of the country last weekend: at least one was ice related and maybe another. So, nerves may be a little frayed. Many of us have a lot of respect for ice on the plane and believe there are prudent was to deal with it; that's all. Please don't take it personally. Looks like you probably have a lot to ad to the board conversation!!

I look forward to hearing your thoughts in more areas.

Best,

Dave

 

[EdFred]

I wonder if we should all run our planes out of fuel from time to time, you know "just for practice".

 

[jesse]

I wonder if we should all run our planes out of fuel from time to time, you know "just for practice".

Why not? It's good practice?

 

[James_Dean]

I wonder if we should all run our planes out of fuel from time to time, you know "just for practice".

I had a valve hooked into my vacuum line. Sometimes when I'm IMC I'll go ahead and turn it off just for a little extra partial panel practice. I'll usually only do this when there is plenty of turbulence to make it real, don't want to cheat myself.


James Dean

 

[tonycondon]

I prefer to take off with no gas.

 

[AirBaker]

If I were to experiment with getting ice on the plane (and my plane is K-ice), this is not where I'd do it. Find a day where ceilings are much higher and the temperature below is much warmer in less congested space.
Ben is not flying a K-ice plane and is a fairly new instrument pilot.

Best,

Dave

I've yet to pick up ice, but that is how I'd want my first time to be...

Of course, I'd rather do it an a Bonanza/206/etc with some extra power. No sense in taking up an airplane with less power.

 

[AirBaker]

I wonder if we should all run our planes out of fuel from time to time, you know "just for practice".

Maybe just one of the tanks? Up high... Over an airfield?

 

[deafsound]

Don't let this happen: