Oh the joys of a "new" plane...

k9medic

k9medic

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Sep 27, 2018
Messages
920
Location
N Central FL and GTC Bahamas when off work
Display Name
Display name:
ATP-H, CMEL, CSEL, CFI/CFII Airplanes and Helicopters
I purchased my Cherokee 6 about 3 weeks ago and since then I have managed to find more "little" things to take care of that seriously have me wondering how in the world it made it out of annual 6 months ago. I'm not a mechanic so perhaps I am missing something but...

Some things that we found that SHOULD have been found at the annual -
  • Severe nose wheel shimmy only at low speed. Found the front tire was rubbing on the fork retainer bolts to the point that it had worn grooves in the tire. There was a ton of rubber piled up in the wheel fairing. Mechanic installed new tire and all is good now. How do you not find this on an annual??
  • Engine compartment was horribly dirty and covered in old oil and dirt. This should have been cleaned before re-cowling the engine. We changed the oil ourselves and applied a good amount of elbow grease to the engine.
  • Wiring issues - found that the wire that powered the EGT and CHT gauge was run through a switch that was run off the panel light rheostat that was running through a 5amp circuit breaker labeled "TV/DVD." Mechanic rewired the EGT and CHT and removed the "TV/DVD" circuit breaker.
The biggest thing that has us shaking our heads -
  • There is a manual trim tab attached to the rudder. It is bent to the right which would mean that (according to the rigging and trimming section of the EAA website) it is trying to correct a yaw to the right.
    The rudder trim knob in the cockpit is turned all of the way to the left. The mechanic cannot figure out why there would be a manual trim tab attached to the rudder as there are zero references to one in the manual. He plans on removing the trim tab and re-centering the knob to see if it corrects itself. It does have electric aileron trim though.
 
Your pre buy didn't catch some of these?

But yeah it will take a good year to get it the way you want. Past mechanics don't see things new mechanics do and vise versa or the previous owner knew it and would get it "next" year. Non airworthy items tend to get pushed by some to next year. Me personally, if it's broke now fix it now. Things compound quickly.
 
simtech said:
Your pre buy didn't catch some of these?
Click to expand...

We caught the dirty engine compartment on the prebuy but the nose wheel shimmy and the weird rigging didn't come up until we actually did the acceptance flight. We only ground ran the plane for the pre buy.

The wiring was found when I was cleaning and saw some strange colored wires. The mechanic didn't poke his head under the dash before then
 
k9medic said:
We caught the dirty engine compartment on the prebuy but the nose wheel shimmy and the weird rigging didn't come up until we actually did the acceptance flight. We only ground ran the plane for the pre buy.

The wiring was found when I was cleaning and saw some strange colored wires. The mechanic didn't poke his head under the dash before then
Click to expand...

Gotcha. Yeah you will find more trust me. After 1 or 2 annuals you will have it the way you want. At least that was how mine went.
 
This sort of thing is all too common. I believe that many owners can't really afford the airplane, so they find mechanics willing to cut corners and pencil-whip the annuals to keep the costs down, and stuff like this accumulates. Then the guy finally sells the airplane to some unsuspecting buyer. I have spent many hours per airplane fixing all the stuff we found, providing the new owner wants it fixed, and most did.

Misrigged control systems are so common it's not funny. Lots of mechanics can't afford (or just won't buy) the service manuals that describe rigging procedures, and those procedures are often not intuitive. Part of the blame lies with the manufacturers, who often want far beyond a reasonable price for their manuals. These days, with DVDs and internet, there's no reason any manual should cost $600.

The mechanic who has the manual and won't use it should go fix cars or bicycles.
 
k9medic said:
The biggest thing that has us shaking our heads -
  • There is a manual trim tab attached to the rudder. It is bent to the right which would mean that (according to the rigging and trimming section of the EAA website) it is trying to correct a yaw to the right.
    The rudder trim knob in the cockpit is turned all of the way to the left. The mechanic cannot figure out why there would be a manual trim tab attached to the rudder as there are zero references to one in the manual. He plans on removing the trim tab and re-centering the knob to see if it corrects itself. It does have electric aileron trim though.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'd let him remove it if I were you. For one, if he removes it he's going to have to remove your rudder to re-balance it; I wouldn't want to pay for that. Two, there's no harm in leaving it there, it's just another method for rudder trim in addition to the knob. Rig the rudder properly and leave the manual tab. My Twin Bo has adjustable aileron trim in the cockpit, plus a manual trim tab out on the left aileron. Both get used.
 
Your always going to find some minor problems,if you think the mechanic that did the annual was lax,find another shop.
 
"Cheap" annuals are not cheap in the long run. It took several years to sort out all the deferred or pencil whipped maintenance from prior owners on both of the planes I have owned. Sometimes your own mechanic will let things go they shouldn't just because they were before.The coup de grace was a spinner failure on a post-annual takeoff due to the failure of a cracked plastic spinner bulkhead. After an emergency landing and disassembly, I discovered that the bulkhead had been "repaired" in the past with RTV and a rubber stopper. I replaced that part with the newer metal bulkhead and insisted on seeing the disassembled plane during every annual with a new mechanic after that. Even an untrained eye would know that the spinner repair was not SOP. This is the kind of crap that drives new owners crazy. (Like removing 10-15 lb of useless and obsolete wiring, antennas, and avionics bits and bobs during a major panel upgrade.)
 
Dan Thomas said:
... Part of the blame lies with the manufacturers, who often want far beyond a reasonable price for their manuals. These days, with DVDs and internet, there's no reason any manual should cost $600. ...
Click to expand...
How many of these service manuals do you think will be sold? How many different iterations will you need? How long should you maintain them—should a new 172 manual cover old 172s? Or do you write a new one?
My company does technical publications for an aerospace company; I know the true cost of keeping up documentation. Beside whomever is making it pretty for publication, someone must do version control and quality assurance; a minor change may require a dozen professionals to put in an hour or two of their time. Legal may need to approve it. The actual cost of printing short runs isn't why they cost so much.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I believe that many owners can't really afford the airplane, so they find mechanics willing to cut corners and pencil-whip the annuals to keep the costs down, and stuff like this accumulates.
Click to expand...
This is more the problem. In the OP's case, there was a previous owner who accepted or possibly requested the aircraft remain in that condition. But while it's easy to point the finger at the mechanic for whatever reason, it's the owner that has the final say so on the aircraft condition and actually returns it to service.

Dan Thomas said:
Lots of mechanics can't afford (or just won't buy) the service manuals
Click to expand...
Dan Thomas said:
Part of the blame lies with the manufacturers,
Click to expand...
While I disagree on the "lots" term as the majority of mechanics I know all have the proper manuals for the work they perform, it's not really the OEMs fault. Considering I've done some technical writing for small OEMs, they just as soon not write any instructions or worse have all previous documentation destroyed on items no longer in production. Unfortunately, a couple regulations get in the way and they must provide that documentation. And with those docs comes support and liability which drives the costs. So it's not as simple as making a few DVDs.

Dan Thomas said:
The mechanic who has the manual and won't use it should go fix cars or bicycles.
Click to expand...
Agree 100% but should stick to lawnmowers.
 
Sadly this sort of thing isn't uncommon. The wiring issue I wouldn't have expected to catch on an annual. The engine should have been cleaned, though, and if the nose wheel was rubbing that also should have been noted.

The rudder I would investigate before removing that manual trim tab as it's possible that it just needs to be properly rigged.

@Mtns2Skies is right. You'll find more.
 
Bell206 said:
This is more the problem. In the OP's case, there was a previous owner who accepted or possibly requested the aircraft remain in that condition. But while it's easy to point the finger at the mechanic for whatever reason, it's the owner that has the final say so on the aircraft condition and actually returns it to service.



While I disagree on the "lots" term as the majority of mechanics I know all have the proper manuals for the work they perform, it's not really the OEMs fault. Considering I've done some technical writing for small OEMs, they just as soon not write any instructions or worse have all previous documentation destroyed on items no longer in production. Unfortunately, a couple regulations get in the way and they must provide that documentation. And with those docs comes support and liability which drives the costs. So it's not as simple as making a few DVDs.


Agree 100% but should stick to lawnmowers.
Click to expand...

It's partly because I own two odd-ball airplanes, but I have my own copies of the pertinent maintenance manuals and I make sure my A&P has access to my copies (PDFs). Much easier to do troubleshooting or preventive maintenance with all the the manuals.
 
Same here, list is over 50 items but mostly done (since July)!
Now, to figure out what that relay is, which I can hear clicking under the left side of the panel when I put the two loose connectors together under the right side of the panel!
 
bradg33 said:
but I have my own copies of the pertinent maintenance manuals
Click to expand...
I always encouraged owners to purchase their own manuals for various reasons. Most of my manuals were bought at auction or during the first years of Ebay before anybody realized their value. But I never paid for the update service. The FARs provide alternative methods to work on aircraft without OEM manuals. But if my manuals didn't cover a specific S/N aircraft I could usually find the required info somewhere in my network. If not, and needed the specific info by S/N, I would decline the work. Unfortunately, not every mechanic can be selective on turning down work.
 
bradg33 said:
I'm not sure I'd let him remove it if I were you. For one, if he removes it he's going to have to remove your rudder to re-balance it; I wouldn't want to pay for that. Two, there's no harm in leaving it there, it's just another method for rudder trim in addition to the knob. Rig the rudder properly and leave the manual tab. My Twin Bo has adjustable aileron trim in the cockpit, plus a manual trim tab out on the left aileron. Both get used.
Click to expand...

Until a sharp inspector sees it and asks, "I don't remember seeing that in the maintenance or parts manual, and since that is a modification to a balanced flight control it's a major modification, so can I please see the form 337 for that?"
 
I spent about a year shaking out my T Lance and it was pretty damn nice to begin with. As to the annual, I've looked a few planes where I’m 99.44% sure it was pencil whipped.

But I have to ask.....


If you are finding all this now, did you happen to have a prebuy done on it or even take it for a test flight before buying. A competent once over would certainly have discovered a few of these.
 
unsafervguy said:
Until a sharp inspector sees it and asks, "I don't remember seeing that in the maintenance or parts manual, and since that is a modification to a balanced flight control it's a major modification, so can I please see the form 337 for that?"
Click to expand...

I'd roll the dice on that one. The likelihood of that happening is rather small, IMHO.
 
As I meantioned earlier, yes to the pre buy. We did a ground run only and after it was all said and done I did an acceptance flight which was fine.

I figured the nose shimmy was pilot induced and the trim tab/ rigging wasn’t noticed until I started to look close at some things.
 
Sounds like lots of owner (hangar gremlins) work has been done without proper supervision. You'll want to get the control rigging thoroughly checked and corrected.
 
Well almost a week has gone by and we have come across some new issues as predicted.

I flew the plan over to the mechanic to get the tire put on. While I was on my way over to the airport (class D) I realized that I was no longer receiving audio. After a few hard presses on the audio panel, everything started working again. On my landing roll out, my left brake pedal went to the floor and I was barely able to get the plane to a stop. I limped to the mechanics hangar and after installing the new nose tire, we started looking for likely culprits with the brakes.

We bled the brakes...Nothing. We bled them again... Nothing. We drained and refilled everything... Nothing. Finally, we rebuilt the brake master cylinder and got good pressure. While there I had him take care of that strange trim tab.

On the flight home, the plane flew as advertised and the trim knob was working the way it should. We still have no idea why there was a fixed tab on the rudder. Landing was a different story - no brakes again!

This morning, we went to the plane and started looking again. After a few moments of pulling on the parking brake handle, while flipped upside down under the panel the issue was immediately evident. There was a bubbling ooze of a mess of 5606 coming out of the left side hose. A quick pull and replacement of the hose along with some time spent bleeding the brakes resulted in nice solid brakes yest again.

Here is the kicker - there was a tab on the old brake hose dated 3/1967!! I guess if it works, why mess with it!
 
A wise old owner once told me you'll spend 10% of the purchase price in the first few years fixing things and getting the aircraft into shape.
 
k9medic said:
Here is the kicker - there was a tab on the old brake hose dated 3/1967!! I guess if it works, why mess with it!
Click to expand...

You would be surprised how often I've seen this. On the MU-2, hose replacement is prescribed every 10 years and must be performed per the maintenance manual. In the piston world, although replacement every 12 years is recommended it's often ignored. Then you have issues like this pop up. Absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. On the 414 I found hoses that dated back to the 80s if not earlier. Fuel and oil carrying hoses, right next to the turbo. I replaced all of them.

Bill Jennings said:
A wise old owner once told me you'll spend 10% of the purchase price in the first few years fixing things and getting the aircraft into shape.
Click to expand...

If it's only 10% you got a pretty good airplane. 50% is more the number I'd recommend for most old piston birds.
 
Dan Thomas said:
This sort of thing is all too common. I believe that many owners can't really afford the airplane, so they find mechanics willing to cut corners and pencil-whip the annuals to keep the costs down, and stuff like this accumulates. Then the guy finally sells the airplane to some unsuspecting buyer. I have spent many hours per airplane fixing all the stuff we found, providing the new owner wants it fixed, and most did...
Click to expand...

Ted DuPuis said:
...If it's only 10% you got a pretty good airplane. 50% is more the number I'd recommend for most old piston birds.
Click to expand...

My current plane I bought from a guy that made about 3x more than me, he babied the plane, poured money into it, and it showed. And yet, I still spent close to 50% of the purchase on my first two annuals...old planes tend to accumulate old problems.
 
I heard you'd spend the same as the purchase price in the first 3 years :)
 
tawood said:
My current plane I bought from a guy that made about 3x more than me, he babied the plane, poured money into it, and it showed. And yet, I still spent close to 50% of the purchase on my first two annuals...old planes tend to accumulate old problems.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, that hasn't been my personal experience, but I don't disagree on the expectations bit. I will say, some people are sticklers and tinkerers too. I could easily find 25k worth of cosmetic and misc avionics repairs/refurbishment that are not airworthiness issues but most buyers would probably want addressed. If I were to consider them necessary for further flight I too would be wailing about the untenable nature of aircraft sole ownership. So its all a matter of degrees.

I know theres no guarantees in life, but if i had taken the perspective of budget busting 50 pct of hull value surprise repairs after "thorough pre buys" by default, I would have never felt comfortable in pulling the trigger on aircraft ownership. Alas, it hasn't been that dark and upside down of an experience, 3 airplanes and counting. Go figure. But I can totally see how it can be for those with a "to a kid with a hammer, everything is a nail" approach to ownership.

All that said, ones money, ones circus. No right or wrong answer.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Perhaps, that hasn't been my personal experience, but I don't disagree on the expectations bit. I will say, some people are sticklers and tinkerers too. I could easily find 25k worth of cosmetic and misc avionics repairs/refurbishment that are not airworthiness issues but most buyers would probably want addressed. If I were to consider them necessary for further flight I too would be wailing about the untenable nature of aircraft sole ownership. So its all a matter of degrees.

I know theres no guarantees in life, but if i had taken the perspective of budget busting 50 pct of hull value surprise repairs after "thorough pre buys" by default, I would have never felt comfortable in pulling the trigger on aircraft ownership. Alas, it hasn't been that dark and upside down of an experience, 3 airplanes and counting. Go figure. But I can totally see how it can be for those with a "to a kid with a hammer, everything is a nail" approach to ownership.

All that said, ones money, ones circus. No right or wrong answer.
Click to expand...
I agree, and with a new plane, I tend to be a stickler, right up until I get tired of paying to be a stickler... then after that I'm willing to "tap on the radio" to get the display to brighten up, or "wiggle the knob" to get the switch to properly switch, etc.
 
k9medic said:
There was a bubbling ooze of a mess of 5606 coming out of the left side hose
Click to expand...

hey I wonder if your drain holes could be blocked up, aren't there supposed to be drain holes in the belly - I'd think you should see something on the floor/ground
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top