OH costs

It depends. Shops in different areas charge vastly different prices. Are you planning to send it off or have the work done locally? Are you helping at all?

There is no standard I'm aware of for what constitutes a top overhaul. A major overhaul also has many variations, depending on whether you overhaul to service limits or new limits and what accessories you have done as well.

Also, what engine?
 
Cherokee 180 would have a 360 lycoming. I do not know what you fly.

Cessna 182 would have a 470 or 540. Depending on year I think it could be low compression conti or Lycoming but both are 6 cyl.

I watched my IA do a top O/H on my Comanche which has Lycoming 540, 6 jugs. It was $1000 per jug new or about $700 for a full reconditioned jug with cerminil treatment. I ordered the parts and paid directly so the IA did not pay for them or mark them up to me. This saved me about $300 per jug I suspect.

8-10 hrs labor (could be less if done at annual inspection as you already have the cowl off- I assisted and it took less than 1 hr remove cowl and prep, another 1 hr to take off exhaust and turbo (without the turbo it would probably be a bit faster), shields and hoses or what not then about 1 hr per jug two swap them out (it really seemed to take about half our each to remove them, and another half our each to replace them as I had to remove and send them in to be re-manufactured), plus 2 hrs should cover putting it back together). I might have saved 1-2 hrs of mechanics time as I did most of the lugging around the boxes, unboxing the jugs when they came back and had them ready for the IA to install as he was ready.

plus probably a good idea to do an oil change shortly after swapping the jugs to remove any manufacturing debris left on the jugs or shavings from the broken in rings. If you have a Cherokee I am unsure if it would be easier or worse to work as the Comanche has plenty of room to work.

Lycoming new price has a price of $1000 for parallel valve jugs and I can't remember but I think it was $1800 for angle valves. You can check that out yourself. The shipping was free if I went new but it was about $27 each way on the reman jugs.

you need to check on the Lycoming 360 engine if you have a sold core crank case or not. If you have a hollow crank it probably has had the AD inspection on it for pitting. That would factor into my doing a TOP or not.

So my IO540 top included Refurb jugs, Kept old injectors, $4500 including shipping. $500 labor to IA. Six new champion spark plugs I sourced cheaply at $120. $50 for oil filter and 12 quarts oil Phillips xc 20-50 which has plenty of mineral oil in it so it is great for break in as well as normal use.

So for 6 cyc Lycoming worked out to about $5200 doing what is called a Field Top Over Haul not sending it some place.

For me to do a field MOH would have likely added $10-12k bottom including all hoses, $2k more on top as I would have gone new jugs only; $2k accessories OH, $2k turbos, $1200 waste gates. Maybe another 20-30 hrs at $55 per hour.
 
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Advertised 180HP IO-360 overhaul exchange prices run from about $17K at a couple of places to $25K at Air Power. Add a thousand or two for removal, shipping, replacement and general engine compartment cleanup. Four new cylinders for that engine will cost about $5K, plus labor to remove and replace the old ones, bringing cost for a minimal "top overhaul" to around $6K.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
you need to check on the Lycoming 360 engine if you have a sold core crank case or not. If you have a hollow crank it probably has had the AD inspection on it for pitting. That would factor into my doing a TOP or not.

Since when is a crank considered a top end part?

If this is a hollow crank, you best re-read the AD, These cranks can not be re-used (add the price of a new crank to the bill

$50 for oil filter and 12 quarts oil Phillips xc 20-50 which has plenty of mineral oil in it so it is great for break in as well as normal use.

All aviation oils are mineral. And yes the Phillips 20W50 does work well for break in, simply because it is not an EP oil.

So for 6 cyc Lycoming worked out to about $5200 doing what is called a Field Top Over Haul not sending it some place.

Please show us what that is.

For me to do a field MOH would have likely added $10-12k bottom including all hoses, $2k more on top as I would have gone new jugs only; $2k accessories OH, $2k turbos, $1200 waste gates. Maybe another 20-30 hrs at $55 per hour.
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Please explain the difference between a major overhaul and a firewall forward. Which one has a proper definition?
 
I overhauled one of my O-360's myself for $12K including new cylinders and sending out the machine work. OTOH when we bought the pawnee brave it had receipts for a previous overhaul on the IO-720 at $87K and change. That probably covers the range of single engine lycomings.
 
Tom-D said:
Please explain the difference between a major overhaul and a firewall forward. Which one has a proper definition?
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In the past some might have said that the firewall forward included all accessories, etc... But even then, it's always been whatever you get in WRITING that's being worked on, just like any work nowadays.
 
Firewall forward is everything in front of the firewall to include the prop MOH.
MOH just the engine, hoses and accessories to serviceable limits unless otherwise stated.
Remanufactured (can only be done by factory) MOH to new limits(gets new log book).
New is new from factory (with new logbook).

I said that the hollow crank condition would factor into whether I did a Top OH or a MOH not that it was in any way part of performing an TOP.
 
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JHW said:
I overhauled one of my O-360's myself for $12K including new cylinders and sending out the machine work.
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I don't believe Jaybird has either the skill set, the time, or the certifications to make that a viable option even if he could sell his partners on the idea.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
Firewall forward is everything in front of the firewall to include the prop MOH.
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That may be your definition, Tony, but there is no FAA definition of the term. So, it means whatever the person who owns the plane thinks it does.
MOH just the engine, hoses and accessories to serviceable limits unless otherwise stated.
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Again, that is Tony's definition, not the FAA's. The limits in the overhaul manual may be different than "servicable" limits in the repair manual, and there's nothing about hoses or other engine compartment accessories there. Here are the actual legal FAA definitions of the terms "overhauled" and "rebuilt":
Sec. 43.2

Records of overhaul and rebuilding.

(a) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being overhauled unless--
(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, and reassembled; and
(2) It has been tested in accordance with approved standards and technical data, or in accordance with current standards and technical data acceptable to the Administrator, which have been developed and documented by the holder of the type certificate, supplemental type certificate, or a material, part, process, or appliance approval under part 21 of this chapter.
(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.
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Remanufactured (can only be done by factory) MOH to new limits(gets new log book).
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The term "remanufactured" is not defined by the FAA, and Lycoming no longer uses it. They now use "rebuilt," which is (as stated above) defined by the FAA. Also, shops other than the factory can "rebuild" an engine as well as overhaul it.

New is new from factory (with new logbook).
Click to expand...
That is correct.

I said that the hollow crank condition would factor into whether I did a Top OH or a MOH not that it was in any way part of performing an TOP.
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Since there is no legal definition of a "top overhaul" of an engine, that term has little meaning. You have to look at all the documentation of the work to find out just what was done. Also, it's hard to figure out the condition of the crank, bearings, and other "bottom end" parts without tearing down the engine, and at that point, you've done half the work of a "real" overhaul.
 
JHW said:
I overhauled one of my O-360's myself for $12K including new cylinders and sending out the machine work. OTOH when we bought the pawnee brave it had receipts for a previous overhaul on the IO-720 at $87K and change. That probably covers the range of single engine lycomings.
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I didn't do the overhaul on the 520s myself this go round, but I may next go round. Hopefully that won't be for 15 years or so.

Jaybird, budget $20-$25k for the total overhaul cost including redoing the baffles, new fuel and oil hoses, new rubber mounts, and other parts that wear out over time. You should have some money leftover.

Keep in mind that not all overhauls are created equal. Feel free to PM me if you want my input.
 
Ron Levy said:
Also, shops other than the factory can "rebuild" an engine as well as overhaul it.
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Do you know of any shops that can grant zero time and a new logbook other than the manufacturer?

AC 20-62E
​
k. Rebuilt Engines. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Only engines that are rebuilt by a manufacturer holding an FAA production approval, an agency approved by the PAH, or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated agency can be considered as zero timed
[/FONT][/FONT]
91.421
(a) The owner or operator may use a new maintenance record, without previous operating history, for an aircraft engine rebuilt by the manufacturer or by an agency approved by the manufacturer
 
VanDy is correct... If you want a rebuild, rather than an overhaul, you need to go to the manufacturer.

However, your shop can overhaul your engine to new limits. It just isn't 0 timed.
 
VanDy said:
Do you know of any shops that can grant zero time and a new logbook other than the manufacturer?

AC 20-62E
​
k. Rebuilt Engines. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Only engines that are rebuilt by a manufacturer holding an FAA production approval, an agency approved by the PAH, or an appropriately rated FAA-certificated agency can be considered as zero timed
[/FONT][/FONT]
91.421
(a) The owner or operator may use a new maintenance record, without previous operating history, for an aircraft engine rebuilt by the manufacturer or by an agency approved by the manufacturer
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I think Penn Yan has that authorization -- I believe I've seen a zero-time log on a rebuild from them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
VanDy is correct... If you want a rebuild, rather than an overhaul, you need to go to the manufacturer.

However, your shop can overhaul your engine to new limits. It just isn't 0 timed.
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Any shop can rebuild an engine, but they need special authorization to zero-time it. IOW, zero-timing is a step beyond rebuilding, not an automatic part of it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Any shop can rebuild an engine, but they need special authorization to zero-time it. IOW, zero-timing is a step beyond rebuilding, not an automatic part of it.
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You should note there is a difference between total time, and times since major overhaul.

I can not zero total time, I can produce an engine that has zero since major overhaul.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be your definition, Tony, but there is no FAA definition of the term. So, it means whatever the person who owns the plane thinks it does.
Again, that is Tony's definition, not the FAA's. The limits in the overhaul manual may be different than "servicable" limits in the repair manual, and there's nothing about hoses or other engine compartment accessories there. Here are the actual legal FAA definitions of the terms "overhauled" and "rebuilt":


The term "remanufactured" is not defined by the FAA, and Lycoming no longer uses it. They now use "rebuilt," which is (as stated above) defined by the FAA. Also, shops other than the factory can "rebuild" an engine as well as overhaul it.

That is correct.

Since there is no legal definition of a "top overhaul" of an engine, that term has little meaning. You have to look at all the documentation of the work to find out just what was done. Also, it's hard to figure out the condition of the crank, bearings, and other "bottom end" parts without tearing down the engine, and at that point, you've done half the work of a "real" overhaul.
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Well said, but would you accept a definition written in a FAA produced AC. as a proper definition ?

see AC 43-11
 
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At what point would you gentlemen recommend simply replacing a cylinder that is running low compression and when a total overhaul should be performed.

For instance my IO-360 had the #4 cylinder replaced about 200 hours ago (which was before I owned it) when the compression dropped to about 48#. I noted that the compressions in the #3 cylinder were last read at 68# at the airplanes annual just prior to my purchase. In the pre-purchase and in the annual since that cylinder came back up to 72#. This makes sense because the aircraft is being flown more than before I purchased it.

My IO-360 has around 1350 hrs since new and runs great, oil samples are trending well. I have priced overhaul and R&R at about $26,000 using figures from Signature in Cincy and I am putting back an amount per hour that would provide that reserve if the engine makes it to TBO (2000).

I had been running it at 75% power but recently started running at 65% power as it is a little smoother. what are your thoughts on power settings?
 
These numbers horrify me.
 
Tim, there are too many variables for me to make a hard line. In your case, I'd likely just overhaul the offending cylinder and go on, unless you had other indications that there is a problem.

65 or 75% power is fine on that engine. Neither should hurt it.
 
Tom-D said:
You should note there is a difference between total time, and times since major overhaul.

I can not zero total time, I can produce an engine that has zero since major overhaul.
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Well, yes, but the term "zero-timed" is generally accepted to mean a new log book with zero time in it, not just an old tattered log that has twenty years of entries followed by "0 SMOH." Tom can do the latter, not the former, so if Tom advertises an engine as "zero-timed," he's treading on very thin ice.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, yes, but the term "zero-timed" is generally accepted to mean a new log book with zero time in it, not just an old tattered log that has twenty years of entries followed by "0 SMOH." Tom can do the latter, not the former, so if Tom advertises an engine as "zero-timed," he's treading on very thin ice.
Click to expand...

I always give a new log book with my overhauls, with zero since major overhaul.
 
Tom-D said:
Well said, but would you accept a definition written in a FAA produced AC. as a proper definition ?

see AC 43-11
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I know what that AC says, but since it is not regulatory, folks can ignore it and use the term "top overhaul" (as in, "This engine has had a 'top overhaul'") to mean anything they like unless they qualify it appropriately ("This engine has had a top overhaul in accordance with AC 43-11"). They cannot, however, legally use the term "overhauled" (as in "This engine has been overhauled") unless the work done meets the standard in 43.2(a).
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Tim, there are too many variables for me to make a hard line. In your case, I'd likely just overhaul the offending cylinder and go on, unless you had other indications that there is a problem.
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Agreed.

65 or 75% power is fine on that engine. Neither should hurt it.
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Also agreed, but remember that many of us are running with mechanical tachs that are into their fourth decade of operation, and those tend to read 100-150 RPM low. As a result, it's not hard to be running well over 75% when you think you aren't. Checking your tach with a strobe and creating a tach correction card (like the one for your compass) is a good idea -- and then updating it every five years or so.
 
Tom-D said:
I always give a new log book with my overhauls, with zero since major overhaul.
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I'm sure you also give back the old logbook, too, and the new logbook has the total time since new carried forward into it right next to that "0 SMOH". That's the difference with what everyone calls "zero-timed" -- no old log, no time carried forward.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, yes, but the term "zero-timed" is generally accepted to mean a new log book with zero time in it, not just an old tattered log that has twenty years of entries followed by "0 SMOH." Tom can do the latter, not the former, so if Tom advertises an engine as "zero-timed," he's treading on very thin ice.
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Zero Timed
has no definition in any engine overhaul reference.

As per

§91.421 — Rebuilt engine maintenance records
This section presents the term “zero time.” Although not truly given as a definition, the wording of the regu- lation is very clear that an aircraft engine, when rebuilt by the engine manufacturer or an agency approved by the manufacturer, may be given a new maintenance record, showing no previous operating history. This new record must include a signed statement with the date it was rebuilt, any changes incorporated by com- pliance with AD notes, and compliance with any of the manufacturer’s service bulletins.

so you best read what was done during overhaul.
 
Tom-D said:
Zero Timed
has no definition in any engine overhaul reference.
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Exactly my point. Any one claiming to sell you a zero-timed overhauled engine is blowing smoke up your nose. The two terms "zero-timed" and "overhauled" should never appear together. OTOH, while every zero-timed engine must have been rebuilt, not every rebuilt engine will be zero-timed. Only the manufacturer and some select other shops can zero-time an engine when they rebuild it.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm sure you also give back the old logbook, too, and the new logbook has the total time since new carried forward into it right next to that "0 SMOH". That's the difference with what everyone calls "zero-timed" -- no old log, no time carried forward.
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I don't know where you get the opinion that Zero timed means a new engine, many ads in T-A-P say it the engine is Zero Timed but are actually overhauled with TT continuing.
OBTW, I seldom get the old log books. I give the owner the choice, new log? old log continuing.

I'm not even required by FAR to enter the TT of the engine.

I can enter " TSMO "0" Total time unknown"
 
Tom-D said:
I don't know where you get the opinion that Zero timed means a new engine,
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I never said it did. All I said is that a rebuilt engine (and only a rebuilt engine) may be returned from the shop with a logbook showing zero time in service.

many ads in T-A-P say it the engine is Zero Timed but are actually overhauled with TT continuing.
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If so, they're lying out their bungholes.

OBTW, I seldom get the old log books. I give the owner the choice, new log? old log continuing.

I'm not even required by FAR to enter the TT of the engine.
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No, but it's not going to be worth much if you don't, since there are many inspections and AD's which are based on hours of operation.

I can enter " TSMO "0" Total time unknown"
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Yes, "unknown" is a legally valid substitute, as long as their are no limited life components involved. Of course, that isn't considered "zero-timed" by anyone, and it's going to have a serious effect on value.
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly my point. Any one claiming to sell you a zero-timed overhauled engine is blowing smoke up your nose. The two terms "zero-timed" and "overhauled" should never appear together. OTOH, while every zero-timed engine must have been rebuilt, not every rebuilt engine will be zero-timed. Only the manufacturer and some select other shops can zero-time an engine when they rebuild it.
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You seem to link Zero Timed with 0 TT.
It also applies to SMOH.

That is why the FAA has not applied it to mean the rebuilt engine is new.

I can "re-build" engines, that only applies to the tolerances use in the overhaul, and has nothing to do with how much time is on the data tag. or wether or not a new log book is started.

Anyone can start a new log book on any engine.
 
The policy of both engine manufacturers today is they will not give you a new log book and a zero TT unless the engine is in fact a new engine.

New engines can be assembled by any licensed agent of the manufacturer, and it will have a new data tag, giving it a new SERIAL NUMBER.

The FARs will state what is legal, but the manufacturers will dictate reality.
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed.

Checking your tach with a strobe and creating a tach correction card (like the one for your compass) is a good idea -- and then updating it every five years or so.
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You make a great point there. I should have requested this at Annual time then I would have known for sure. I will make sure to get that verified.
 
Ron Levy said:
I never said it did. All I said is that a rebuilt engine (and only a rebuilt engine) may be returned from the shop with a logbook showing zero time in service.

If so, they're lying out their bungholes.

No, but it's not going to be worth much if you don't, since there are many inspections and AD's which are based on hours of operation.

Yes, "unknown" is a legally valid substitute, as long as their are no limited life components involved. Of course, that isn't considered "zero-timed" by anyone, and it's going to have a serious effect on value.
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IOWs you believe any engine that is rebuilt to new standards by Charley Malot is worth less with out prior records???

I think you are wrong. I believe any engine overhauled to rebuilt standards IAW FAR 43.2 is as good as any with prior records.
 
charlie said:
We have overhauled a number of 4 cylinder Lycomings with ALL NEW PARTS but they still carried forward the original total time. Charlie Melot Zephyr Engines
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And I have one that is running perfectly.
 
tmyers said:
You make a great point there. I should have requested this at Annual time then I would have known for sure. I will make sure to get that verified.
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When you do that, how will you deal with every other entry that stated Tach time, that would now be wrong.
 
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