OH costs

[poadeleted21]

When you do that, how will you deal with every other entry that stated Tach time, that would now be wrong.

I believe it was in reference to knowing the amount of power you're making not adjusting tach time.

 

[poadeleted21]

Now do you understand why I advise, " never spend over 50% of your aircraft budget on the purchase"?

Nope.

 

[Ted]

Also agreed, but remember that many of us are running with mechanical tachs that are into their fourth decade of operation, and those tend to read 100-150 RPM low. As a result, it's not hard to be running well over 75% when you think you aren't. Checking your tach with a strobe and creating a tach correction card (like the one for your compass) is a good idea -- and then updating it every five years or so.

Of course, I'm assuming your gauges are accurate.

If you doubt yours is, you could always upgrade to digital.

 

[Tom-D]

No, but it's not going to be worth much if you don't, since there are many inspections and AD's which are based on hours of operation.

I think you forgot the requirement of 43.2 .

What does this mean.?
(1) Using methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator,

Would that be the overhaul manual?

what does the first page of that manual state?

 

[Tom-D]

I believe it was in reference to knowing the amount of power you're making not adjusting tach time.

If your tach is 25% fast, (it shows 2500, it in reality it will be 2475) the hours will be 10% slow too.

 

[poadeleted21]

If your tach is 10% fast, (it shows 2500, it in reality it will be 2475) the hours will be 10% slow too.

Yup, I realize that. But who'sto say when it started reading erroneously. I'll let your math slide too.

 

[JHW]

there is no such thing as "zero time" rebuild. That's a euphemism the manufacturers are allowed to use to build an engine out of parts with no traceability and unknown time in service.

 

[Tom-D]

Yup, I realize that. But who'sto say when it started reading erroneously. I'll let your math slide too.

fixed it

 

[poadeleted21]

fixed it

That explains the 50% comment you made earlier. Just givin' you a hard time Tom.

 

[poadeleted20]

You seem to link Zero Timed with 0 TT.
It also applies to SMOH.

Tom, you need to stick to one story. A few posts back you said zero-timed didn't apply to overhauls. Now you do. Bottom line is the generally accepted application of the term "zero-timed" is to when an engine is rebuilt, the old logs are thrown away, and new logs showing zero time in service are returned with the engine. And it's not legal do that with an engine you have only overhauled, not rebuilt.

Good night, Tom.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, you need to stick to one story. A few posts back you said zero-timed didn't apply to overhauls. Now you do. Bottom line is the generally accepted application of the term "zero-timed" is to when an engine is rebuilt, the old logs are thrown away, and new logs showing zero time in service are returned with the engine. And it's not legal do that with an engine you have only overhauled, not rebuilt.

Good night, Tom.

As long as you fixate on the rebuilt, as a requirement of the issue of a new log book and a total time, you won't understand that Rebuilt is a term used to describe the type of overhaul, not a requirement of the issue of a engine that has been built by the manufacturer or their legal representative.

In reality the verbiage given in the FARs is not what the manufacturers will do. they only will allow a new engine to be given a new data tag and 0 time in service.

Because there rebuilt engines are simply overhauled to new standards, as any other overhauler can do.

If in fact you order a rebuilt engine with a new log book and 0 TT from the factory, you will get a new engine, with a new data tag and a different S/N.

the term "REBUILT" IAW FAR 43.2
(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

says nothing about a new log book.or Zero timed.

 

[Tom-D]

Gotta remember this debate started when you made this statement.

"Well, yes, but the term "zero-timed" is generally accepted to mean a new log book with zero time in it,"

Which is a misconception on your part.

because most of the industry and buyers, thinks of SMOH not TT

 

[Ted]

there is no such thing as "zero time" rebuild. That's a euphemism the manufacturers are allowed to use to build an engine out of parts with no traceability and unknown time in service.

Yeah, but what you end up getting is an engine that's got more newer parts on it than an overhauled engine in most cases, and something that can increase your plane's resale value. Sure, it's marketing - but it works.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

At what point would you gentlemen recommend simply replacing a cylinder that is running low compression and when a total overhaul should be performed.

For instance my IO-360 had the #4 cylinder replaced about 200 hours ago (which was before I owned it) when the compression dropped to about 48#. I noted that the compressions in the #3 cylinder were last read at 68# at the airplanes annual just prior to my purchase. In the pre-purchase and in the annual since that cylinder came back up to 72#. This makes sense because the aircraft is being flown more than before I purchased it.

My IO-360 has around 1350 hrs since new and runs great, oil samples are trending well. I have priced overhaul and R&R at about $26,000 using figures from Signature in Cincy and I am putting back an amount per hour that would provide that reserve if the engine makes it to TBO (2000).

I had been running it at 75% power but recently started running at 65% power as it is a little smoother. what are your thoughts on power settings?

Oil screen metal is one possible notice that something is up.
Oil filter having metal of a certain size is another possible notice.
Oil analysis spikes are yet another.
Boroscope jugs to see burn marks and other non normal wear to avoid letting a jug get too far out of whack.
Oil temp and pressure changes from normal are two more possible notices.

A jug is a bolt on accessories. So if you have all jugs over 70' but one and the one is 50 then rebuild that jug.

If you have not had much trouble with the engine that is a sign that it will continue to run well. Notice that I said theses things are all possible notice that something is up. Further research is required if you find metal. What type of metal is it? Will lead you to know where the high wear is coming from.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

These numbers horrify me.

???????? ??????

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

You make a great point there. I should have requested this at Annual time then I would have known for sure. I will make sure to get that verified.

I flew out of a small airport with about 100 operations a day and half of them were in transit stops. About 50 a/c on the field, no real flight school.

There were occasionally CFI's out there, I asked one of them if they knew anyone with a wireless tack and checked my prop at different settings high, medium and low and then made note of the difference they were usually within 25 rpm.

You might ask around and do the same thing. Oh, I did it both static on the ground and then I also took someone with me and we did the checks in the air as well.

 

[Tom-D]

What type of metal is it? Will lead you to know where the high wear is coming from.

With the sight of metal in the oil, A prudent owner would get it torn down and cleaned up before any type of metal destroys the crank and bearings.

We don't care what kind of metal it is.

 

[timwinters]

Checking your tach with a strobe and creating a tach correction card (like the one for your compass) is a good idea -- and then updating it every five years or so.

Except that a mechanical tach's margin of error will be all over the place depending on temps and how long it's been spinning today. At least mine is.

In the summer, it's pretty accurate. In the winter it can be way low on a cold morning (100 to 125 rpm) but about an hour into the flight it'll be correct or just slightly low (25rpm).

I have a prop tach and use it to set the power on every flight.

My tach was overhauled about 5 years ago. It was better for about a year but then returned to its error prone self. I'd install a digital tach but I like the traditional look and it's easy to use the prop tach for accurate power setting.

If your tach is 25% fast, (it shows 2500, it in reality it will be 2475) the hours will be 10% slow too.

I've never seen math like that in any of my textbooks!

 

[timwinters]

my toh was 20K

Moose...

Are you sure you didn't mean major overhaul? That's over twice what a top should cost on a four cylinder. At least in my area. Or was something else major done at the same time?

 

[VanDy]

the term "REBUILT" IAW FAR 43.2
(b) No person may describe in any required maintenance entry or form an aircraft, airframe, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, or component part as being rebuilt unless it has been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired as necessary, reassembled, and tested to the same tolerances and limits as a new item, using either new parts or used parts that either conform to new part tolerances and limits or to approved oversized or undersized dimensions.

says nothing about a new log book.or Zero timed.

But.. FAR 91.421 SPECIFICALLY states:

(a) The owner or operator may use a new maintenance record, without previous operating history, for an aircraft engine rebuilt by the manufacturer or by an agency approved by the manufacturer.


so how can you overhaul a engine to new standards and without giving them the prior logbook back? Unless you are an agency approved by the manucaturer???

 

[Tom-D]

But.. FAR 91.421 SPECIFICALLY states:

(a) The owner or operator may use a new maintenance record, without previous operating history, for an aircraft engine rebuilt by the manufacturer or by an agency approved by the manufacturer.


so how can you overhaul a engine to new standards and without giving them the prior logbook back? Unless you are an agency approved by the manucaturer???

Where did I say I did not return the old logs? I usually don't get them.

Re-built is a term use to describe the quality of the overhaul, and has no meaning as to who can issue a log book. It states the engine produced must meet new standards, but any qualified person can do that. When a facility produces an engine that only meets service limits can not describe that engine as re-built.

You can start a new log, the only difference between you and the factory, is you must continue the total time of the engine, the factory can issue a new log that has no prior maintenance history when they overhaul an engine to re-built standards.

 

[VanDy]

I mis-interpreted this post then, since i do agree with the bottom post completely.

OBTW, I seldom get the old log books. I give the owner the choice, new log? old log continuing.

I'm not even required by FAR to enter the TT of the engine.

I can enter " TSMO "0" Total time unknown"

Where did I say I did not return the old logs? I usually don't get them.

Re-built is a term use to describe the quality of the overhaul, and has no meaning as to who can issue a log book. It states the engine produced must meet new standards, but any qualified person can do that. When a facility produces an engine that only meets service limits can not describe that engine as re-built.

You can start a new log, the only difference between you and the factory, is you must continue the total time of the engine, the factory can issue a new log that has no prior maintenance history when they overhaul an engine to re-built standards.

 

[Tom-D]

things to remember about engine overhauls by any facility.

It is legal for the factory to produce a service limits overhaul. It's legal, but they don't. They manufacturer new engines or overhaul engines to new limits, using used parts that meet new standards.

Any facility in the field can do the same thing, except...... we can not produce a new engine, because we can not manufacture a new data tag or issue a new serial number, and say it has zero total time. Only the manufacturer can do that.

 

[Tom-D]

I mis-interpreted this post then, since i do agree with the bottom post completely.

I wasn't very clear in that post, the new log would have the TT of the engine continuing. as would the old log.

All return to service entries are required to meet FAR 43.9

 

[Jaybird180]

Gotta remember this debate started when you made this statement.

"Well, yes, but the term "zero-timed" is generally accepted to mean a new log book with zero time in it,"

Which is a misconception on your part.

because most of the industry and buyers, thinks of SMOH not TT

Ive seen on a lot of ads the use of the term SFREM. How does this factor?

things to remember about engine overhauls by any facility.

It is legal for the factory to produce a service limits overhaul. It's legal, but they don't. They manufacturer new engines or overhaul engines to new limits, using used parts that meet new standards.

Any facility in the field can do the same thing, except...... we can not produce a new engine, because we can not manufacture a new data tag or issue a new serial number, and say it has zero total time. Only the manufacturer can do that.

Sounds disinginuous to me...the factory, I mean.

 

[Ted]

Ive seen on a lot of ads the use of the term SFREM. How does this factor?

Many folks will pay more for a factory rebuild than for a field overhaul.

Sounds disinginuous to me...the factory, I mean.

It's a marketing thing more than anything. Whether or not you believe there is value to a factory overhaul, there is no doubt there are some folks and shops who do very, very bad field overhauls. We know the well-known shops - Zephyr, RAM, Western Skyways, PowerMasters, etc. Some are good, some less good. Then we have A&Ps. I believe Tom does a good job. I know others who do a terrible job. If I'm a potential aircraft buyer, I want assurrance that I'm buying a good engine. Some things I can tell easier than others, but how the engine was built does matter. So, I'm going to be more interested in an engine overhauled by the factory or a well-known shop that has a good reputation vs a shop with a bad reputation or an A&P whose reputation don't know. The seller saying "Oh, he does a great job! His last engine made it 3600 hours!" Doesn't hold much with me. How do I know it's true?

 

[Jaybird180]

Is SFREM rebuilt, new, or overhauled?

I thought I understood these terms

 

[Clark1961]

Is SFREM rebuilt, new, or overhauled?

I thought I understood these terms

FRM is a zero timed engine - not new - not exactly just an overhaul - it's an engine built by the original manufacturer from new and used parts that meet new part specifications.

 

[tmyers]

What kind of reputation does Signature have here in Cincy? I don't know much about them but they are nice and close.

 

[Jaybird180]

FRM is a zero timed engine - not new - not exactly just an overhaul - it's an engine built by the original manufacturer from new and used parts that meet new part specifications.

Is the used from other engines or from the customers own engine?

 

[dell30rb]

These numbers horrify me.

He mentioned he has about 700 hrs to go to TBO. How much would it cost you to rent a 172 for 700 hours?

If you fly enough, its cheaper to buy. Even if you only fly 50-80 hours a year, if you can find a partner and a good plane, probably still cheaper than renting.

 

[Ted]

What kind of reputation does Signature have here in Cincy? I don't know much about them but they are nice and close.

The Aztec had one Signature engine on it. The previous owner of the plane chose them because they were the cheapest. They are.

The cylinders lasted 650 hours before every single one of them failed compression and I needed to do a complete top overhaul. The engine, despite having 1,000 fewer hours than its sister engine, was always the troublesome engine in one way or another. Mag problems, oil leaks, etc. I might have just accepted it were it not for the fact that the right engine (done by someone else... not sure who) didn't have any of these issues.

When we were considering overhaul shops for the 310, I called them up. Again, they were the cheapest. They also were honest enough to tell me that they would probably give me a crappier crankcase than I sent them, same goes for other internal parts. Since I was sending them an engine that was previously a factory reman with a new case and new crank on it, this didn't exactly make me happy, and so we ruled them out as an option. The mechanics I used to deal with in PA said they never had good luck with Signature engines.

Local to Cincy, the tune is a bit different (no surprise). Maybe the locals get the good crankcases they take from someone else's engine? I don't know.

 

[Henning]

About the least that you can do an IO-360 is $12k for a major, you can top around $5k (less if you can freshen up the cylinders you have).

 

[tmyers]

Before purchased 32V I checked with them on an overhaul so I could work up a budget. They quoted $26000 with the R&R plus rebuild. That doesn't sound overly cheap to me.

 

[Ted]

Before purchased 32V I checked with them on an overhaul so I could work up a budget. They quoted $26000 with the R&R plus rebuild. That doesn't sound overly cheap to me.

Agreed, but if you talk to other shops, Signature is probably a couple grand lower.

Just relaying my experiences.

 

[Henning]

Of course, I'm assuming your gauges are accurate.

If you doubt yours is, you could always upgrade to digital.

Or take your analog tach to your local speedometer shop and have it calibrated for $25. All they do is adjust the magnet spacing a bit to compensate for changes in field and spring strength.

 

[N801BH]

.....They also were honest enough to tell me that they would probably give me a crappier crankcase than I sent them, same goes for other internal parts. Since I was sending them an engine that was previously a factory reman with a new case and new crank on it, this didn't exactly make me happy, ..

Ted brings up a valid and important point... Do your absolute best to retain YOUR entire motor and ALL its components.... In every rebuild I did on my stuff I removed them from the airframe and completely disassembled them, inventoried the case, crank, rods, cam, etc..... I used as many of the original parts as I could that met specs.. My mechanic was also a great friend who was a A&P/IA so paying him a fair hourly rate was money well spent.

If you send in a motor, most shops will cherry pick your good stuff and give you back the hand me down stuff their good customers won't accept. IMHO. YMMV...

 

[Henning]

Ted brings up a valid and important point... Do your absolute best to retain YOUR entire motor and ALL its components.... In every rebuild I did on my stuff I removed them from the airframe and completely disassembled them, inventoried the case, crank, rods, cam, etc..... I used as many of the original parts as I could that met specs.. My mechanic was also a great friend who was a A&P/IA so paying him a fair hourly rate was money well spent.

If you send in a motor, most shops will cherry pick your good stuff and give you back the hand me down stuff their good customers won't accept. IMHO. YMMV...

Well, what if I dogged the crap out of it and don't want mine back? A lot of this is why I do my own engines; it's easy, I enjoy it, I know what I have when I'm done.

 

[N801BH]

Well, what if I dogged the crap out of it and don't want mine back? A lot of this is why I do my own engines; it's easy, I enjoy it, I know what I have when I'm done.

Agreed.... The shop I worked at in MCO had ALL the good machines to do the entire rebuild too... I did my own Mangafluxing, Zy glo, resized my rods, polished or ground my cranks, reground cams, refaced lifters, rebored cylinders, the ENTIRE schebang.....

When I got through, the motor was PERFECT...

 

[Ted]

Ted brings up a valid and important point... Do your absolute best to retain YOUR entire motor and ALL its components.... In every rebuild I did on my stuff I removed them from the airframe and completely disassembled them, inventoried the case, crank, rods, cam, etc..... I used as many of the original parts as I could that met specs.. My mechanic was also a great friend who was a A&P/IA so paying him a fair hourly rate was money well spent.

As Henning said... retain your components unless they're junk.

If you send in a motor, most shops will cherry pick your good stuff and give you back the hand me down stuff their good customers won't accept. IMHO. YMMV...

I'm not sure if I'd say most shops do that, but at least Signature will, and told me as such. I give them points for honesty in that regard. The other shops I called up when I asked all said that I would keep my own parts unless I instructed them otherwise or there was a problem with one. Now realistically, they could swap them out without me knowing, but it seems that if they got caught doing that, it would be bad business.

Point is, a phone call and a discussion with the shops are worth a lot. We put a lot of effort into deciding who we wanted to go with. For such an investment, it's worthwhile.