ODP Procedure

[Captain]

I have to admit I don't fly a lot of these. My understanding is a pilot is always allowed to fly them at nonTowered fields.

But I'm the sort of guy who feels funny if ATC doesn't know exactly what I'm doing.

So how do you guys do it? Say you call to get your clearance and you're told to proceed to XYZ and climb to 6K. You want to fly the ODP. You wouldn't tell the guy on the phone would you?

 

[Velocity173]

I fly the ODP until I hear radar contact and get vectored or cleared off of it.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm with McFly -- I just fly it. As the AIM tells us in Section 5-2-8, the controller is required to keep other IFR aircraft clear of any ODP for the departure airport/runway whether you say anything about following it or not.

 

[frfly172]

Usually fly the heading or too the intersection given by atc.

 

[poadeleted20]

Usually fly the heading or too the intersection given by atc.

Yall be careful doing that at a non-towered airport, and even at a towered airport when it isn't a radar tower. Read AIM Section 5-2-8 thoroughly for more on that.

 

[frfly172]

Yall be careful doing that at a non-towered airport, and even at a towered airport when it isn't a radar tower. Read AIM Section 5-2-8 thoroughly for more on that.

Reviewed the aim thanks

 

[flyingron]

Note that ODPs are not just for non towered fields. You made that misstatement and the others didn't correct it.

 

[Captain]

I never said ODPs are just for non-towered fields. But if the tower is operating I'm sure as heck going to coordinate the ODP with it.

 

[Ted]

I like ODPs as well and fly them regularly. I like not hitting things.

On more than one occasion flying out of a non-towered field that probably didn't get much IFR traffic, I've had a controller question where I was going. "I'm following the departure procedure" is sufficient.

 

[MarkZ]

When we block for an IFR departure from any airport, we generally block a sizable chunk of airspace. Most controllers prepare for any wild turns on departure.

Having said that, I'd have a difficult time finding a controller who is versed in ODP's in his/her airspace.

 

[Captain]

When we block for an IFR departure from any airport, we generally block a sizable chunk of airspace. Most controllers prepare for any wild turns on departure.

Having said that, I'd have a difficult time finding a controller who is versed in ODP's in his/her airspace.

Sad statement but it rings true to my ear.

 

[flyingron]

I never said ODPs are just for non-towered fields. But if the tower is operating I'm sure as heck going to coordinate the ODP with it.

Why? You're not required to and most towers don't have anything to with you once your wheels are off the ground. Unless you're given a different departure procedure or instructions with your takeoff clearance, flying the ODP from a towered field is not going to be unexpected.

 

[Captain]

Really? If your clearance is fly to XYZ and climb to 6K you'd just launch and do the ODP without telling anyone? What if its a VFR day and there's traffic in the pattern? Still do the ODP?

 

[aterpster]

Really? If your clearance is fly to XYZ and climb to 6K you'd just launch and do the ODP without telling anyone? What if its a VFR day and there's traffic in the pattern? Still do the ODP?

If it is Day VFR you are well advised to follow local traffic procedures and then join the ODP when clear of the local traffic area.

Some airports have an established noise abatement departure procedure which often conflicts with the ODP. IMC, the ODP takes precedence. VFR, it does not, at least not until clear of the local traffic area.

 

[flyingron]

Really? If your clearance is fly to XYZ and climb to 6K you'd just launch and do the ODP without telling anyone? What if its a VFR day and there's traffic in the pattern? Still do the ODP?

If there's any chance I won't see the terrain you're DAMN STRAIGHT I am going to fly the ODP and the rules don't require me to to redundantly tell ATC that I'm not going to fly into the side of the mountain.

When flying in visual conditions I am obliged to see and avoid VFR traffic on an ODP or a standard departure.

By your logic I should tell ATC that I'm waiting to 400 AGL to turn on course or any number of things your expected to do because their inherent in the IFR procedures. If the FAA wanted you to say mother MAY I on ODPs they would have made that rule in the regs or the aim (similar to what they say about missed approaches on visuals for example).

 

[Velocity173]

If you want to do an ODP at a towered airport then do it. A clearance isn't required. If you want to inform them of your intentions go ahead. It's simply a courtesy. Most likely they're going to give you their own departure instructions anyway overriding the ODP.

 

[flyingron]

I fail to see how a towered field makes any difference. I'm going to be talking to departure (or center) by the time I'm far enough into the ODP to make any flight path difference whether I am leaving from a towered field or an uncontrolled one.

 

[Velocity173]

I fail to see how a towered field makes any difference. I'm going to be talking to departure (or center) by the time I'm far enough into the ODP to make any flight path difference whether I am leaving from a towered field or an uncontrolled one.

It doesn't make any difference but the Instrument Procedures Handbook recommends notifying ATC in the remarks that you're doing the ODP. Just gives them a heads up of your intentions. Either way, an ODP or ATC issued instructions, you can bet they aren't going to be that different from one another. At least not enough to matter.

 

[dtuuri]

Either way, an ODP or ATC issued instructions, you can bet they aren't going to be that different from one another. At least not enough to matter.

Unfortunately, that part is not true. The ODP can be a left turn vs an ATC instruction to turn right. ATC worries about traffic, pilots about obstructions. The tower can assume you're able to visually avoid the latter while the pilot has decided just the opposite, especially considering potential performance limitations. Result? Not on the same page. I'm for being sure both are on the same page, not just assuming they are.

dtuuri

 

[John Collins]

So the departure clearance at the airport that has an ODP or DP is "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading ...". Do you fly the ODP/DP, then fly the heading?

 

[Velocity173]

Unfortunately, that part is not true. The ODP can be a left turn vs an ATC instruction to turn right. ATC worries about traffic, pilots about obstructions. The tower can assume you're able to visually avoid the latter while the pilot has decided just the opposite, especially considering potential performance limitations. Result? Not on the same page. I'm for being sure both are on the same page, not just assuming they are.

dtuuri

Well I suppose if it was truly a hazard then the FAA would make it a requirement to have pilots tell ATC that they're doing the ODP. As the IPH says, it's a "technique."

 

[dtuuri]

So the departure clearance at the airport that has an ODP or DP is "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading ...". Do you fly the ODP/DP, then fly the heading?

Absolutely. An ODP exists to enable pilots to reach the enroute structure which by definition is in controlled airspace. Until the end of the ODP, how else can you be sure you've reached it?

dtuuri

 

[roncachamp]

So the departure clearance at the airport that has an ODP or DP is "upon entering controlled airspace, fly heading ...". Do you fly the ODP/DP, then fly the heading?

ODPs are DPs. DPs come in two flavors, ODPs and SIDs. SIDs are flown only when assigned by ATC so there should never be a conflict as you describe with a SID. Order JO 7110.65 tells controllers that flying a DP in this scenario is the pilot’s prerogative. I'd fly the DP then turn to the heading.

 

[dtuuri]

Well I suppose if it was truly a hazard then the FAA would make it a requirement to have pilots tell ATC that they're doing the ODP. As the IPH says, it's a "technique."

These things aren't made up by the folks in the trenches. Only after a serious incident will the theorists make a change. I've had my baptism in this mud pit and judging from the OP's tone, he's also got enough experience to see a pitfall where the AIM's authors do not. In time, something will underscore it enough to wake up even the ivory-tower types sitting in their nice cozy cubicles. Until then, I advise every pilot to let ATC know if you plan to follow the ODP, required to or not.

dtuuri

 

[roncachamp]

Absolutely. An ODP exists to enable pilots to reach the enroute structure which by definition is in controlled airspace. Until the end of the ODP, how else can you be sure you've reached it?

I think you're wrong about that. Here's the ODP for KMTW:

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 7, climb heading 072°
to 1200 before proceeding on course. Rwy 25, climb
heading 252° to 1200 before proceeding on course.

Field elevation is 651', controlled airspace begins at 700' AGL. Have you reached the enroute structure at the end of this ODP?

 

[Velocity173]

These things aren't made up by the folks in the trenches. Only after a serious incident will the theorists make a change. I've had my baptism in this mud pit and judging from the OP's tone, he's also got enough experience to see a pitfall where the AIM's authors do not. In time, something will underscore it enough to wake up even the ivory-tower types sitting in their nice cozy cubicles. Untill then, I advise every pilot to let ATC know if you plan to follow the ODP, required to or not.

dtuuri

I agree. I just tell them verbally that I'm doing it as my own technique. The thing is, even if you don't tell them you can bet that they don't care. They should be aware that an airport controlled or uncontrolled has an ODP and in the absence of their departure instructions, most likely Pilots are doing an ODP.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I fail to see how a towered field makes any difference. I'm going to be talking to departure (or center) by the time I'm far enough into the ODP to make any flight path difference whether I am leaving from a towered field or an uncontrolled one.

Let's say a towered airport has an ODP and it is CAVU. Your clearance is given as 'fly runway heading, radar vectors to XXX then as filed'....are you going fly the ODP?

 

[Velocity173]

Let's say a towered airport has an ODP and it is CAVU. Your clearance is given as 'fly runway heading, radar vectors to XXX then as filed'....are you going fly the ODP?

CAVU or not, I'm going with the clearance issued by ATC. Says it in the AIM as well.

 

[roncachamp]

Let's say a towered airport has an ODP and it is CAVU. Your clearance is given as 'fly runway heading, radar vectors to XXX then as filed'....are you going fly the ODP?

No, from the AIM:

5−2−8. Instrument Departure Procedures
(DP) − Obstacle Departure Procedures
(ODP) and Standard Instrument Departures
(SID)

"ODPs are recommended for obstruction
clearance and may be flown without ATC
clearance unless an alternate departure procedure
(SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned
by ATC."

 

[dtuuri]

I think you're wrong about that. Here's the ODP for KMTW:

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 7, climb heading 072°
to 1200 before proceeding on course. Rwy 25, climb
heading 252° to 1200 before proceeding on course.

Field elevation is 651', controlled airspace begins at 700' AGL. Have you reached the enroute structure at the end of this ODP?

Semantics. That ODP becomes a diverse departure, or maybe that IS a diverse departure with a restriction, heck if I know what they call these things in TERPS these days. Either way, the purpose is to join the enroute structure. If the ODP has an 'end', you're there. If not, take the next exit within 25 nm (46 mountains) of the departure airport. I'd say a vector qualifies as much as an airway as an 'on ramp' to the enroute structure.

dtuuri

 

[Fearless Tower]

CAVU or not, I'm going with the clearance issued by ATC. Says it in the AIM as well.

Yes,I know, my question was directed at Flyingron.

 

[Clip4]

Dang, you sitting on the ground talking to the controller. Work out your departure so everyone is happy.

 

[Captain]

No, from the AIM:

5−2−8. Instrument Departure Procedures
(DP) − Obstacle Departure Procedures
(ODP) and Standard Instrument Departures
(SID)

"ODPs are recommended for obstruction
clearance and may be flown without ATC
clearance unless an alternate departure procedure
(SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned
by ATC."

Soooooo.....

Given a SID fly the SID (Obvious)

Given: 'Cleared to KABC via radar vectors, XYZ, as filed. Climb 6,000, expect FL230 one zero minutes after departure, contact departure on 125.25, squak 7700'

...and, 'tower clears you to take off runway 9, turn right heading 180'

...and the ODP is a left turn, THEN

The correct action is to make the right turn because radar vectors were part of the clearance. If the lateral portion of the clearance was '...KABC, via XYZ expect radar vectors to join V123...' then flying the ODP would be appropriate as the radar vectors were not assigned but rather told to 'expect'.

Sound right?

 

[roncachamp]

Semantics. That ODP becomes a diverse departure, or maybe that IS a diverse departure with a restriction, heck if I know what they call these things in TERPS these days. Either way, the purpose is to join the enroute structure. If the ODP has an 'end', you're there. If not, take the next exit within 25 nm (46 mountains) of the deparure airport. I'd say a vector qualifies as much as an airway as an 'on ramp' to the enroute structure.

Is that a "Yes" or a "No"?

 

[Velocity173]

A lot of the stuff we're talking about is covered in ATC SOPs that the pilot has no access to.

For example a departure off runway 17L at ABI has an ODP specifying a heading of 180 to 3,200 ft before turning on course. No one ever does that because they have an SOP specifying east departure headings and west departure headings with a standard climb to 5,000.

Even SIDs have options. At Miramar if a pilot rejected a SID (SWOLF 6), then you would assign a 290 and 2,000 ft instead. If they wanted to head east or multiple GCAs, then 340 and 3,000 ft. These are agreements that aren't published in FLIPs.

So SID or ODP, instructions issued by ATC have priority.

 

[dtuuri]

Is that a "Yes" or a "No"?

Neither, it's an amplification. What I wrote is that by definition the enroute structure is in controlled airspace. If the ODP has an "end", you can be sure it's in it. If it's diverse (no end), you need to get on an airway within the 25/46 nm limits or fly the assigned heading after complying with the published restrictions.

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

So SID or ODP, instructions issued by ATC have priority.

Yes, but not so fast for the noobies. They should know that ATC's instructions are only for traffic avoidance (rare DVAs excepted). If a pilot needs to do an ODP, but gets an ATC assignment, s/he needs to decline the clearance unless it's a SID they know they have the performance to comply with. Of course, it would be best to make that fact known before taxiing into position.

dtuuri

 

[roncachamp]

Neither, it's an amplification. What I wrote is that by definition the enroute structure is in controlled airspace. If the ODP has an "end", you can be sure it's in it. If it's diverse (no end), you need to get on an airway within the 25/46 nm limits or fly the assigned heading after complying with the published restrictions.

I've already provided an example of one that is not.

 

[dtuuri]

I've already provided an example of one that is not.

I don't agree that your example has an "end" to the ODP. I think it's diverse with a restriction. Diverse departures usually (?) begin below controlled airspace and extend outward for at least 25 nm in all directions. So, in those instances, controlled airspace is reached when a 200'/nm climb gradient pierces it. That's not the type I had in mind which is why I clarified what I wrote. Thank you for enabling me to do that.

dtuuri

 

[roncachamp]

I don't agree that your example has an "end" to the ODP. I think it's diverse with a restriction. Diverse departures usually (?) begin below controlled airspace and extend outward for at least 25 nm in all directions. So, in those instances, controlled airspace is reached when a 200'/nm climb gradient pierces it. That's not the type I had in mind which is why I clarified what I wrote. Thank you for enabling me to do that.

Diverse departures usually begin at a runway.