ODP crossing a TFR

Harry Mudd

Harry Mudd

Filing Flight Plan
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The Obsitcal Departure Procedure for KAUN crosses over Beal Air Force Base. Typically, there is a TFR over Beal and the ODP goes right though it. The TFR requires pilots to squawk a code and be in contact with ATC. So an IFR flight should be ok as long as you contact ATC before reaching the TFR. KAUN is untowered, so we may need to contact ATC in the air. What if, for some reason, we can not contact ATC before reaching the TFR? I think I would just continue to fly the DP. Is there a better way?
Also, normally you do not need permission to fly an ODP. Does that change if the ODP crosses some special airspace (TFR, MOA, class C/B). Of course it's always best to tell ATC your flying the ODP. But I'm wondering if it is actually required in some situations.
 
Weirdest TFR I've ever heard of, but really no different from dealing with class C.
Looks like you can get NORCAL approach on the ground 125.4, Flight Service on 122.2 or clearance delivery 916-361-6874. I don't see the crisis in getting a transponder code before taxiing onto the runway.
 
Harry Mudd said:
The Obsitcal Departure Procedure for KAUN crosses over Beal Air Force Base. Typically, there is a TFR over Beal and the ODP goes right though it. The TFR requires pilots to squawk a code and be in contact with ATC. So an IFR flight should be ok as long as you contact ATC before reaching the TFR. KAUN is untowered, so we may need to contact ATC in the air. What if, for some reason, we can not contact ATC before reaching the TFR? I think I would just continue to fly the DP. Is there a better way?
Also, normally you do not need permission to fly an ODP. Does that change if the ODP crosses some special airspace (TFR, MOA, class C/B). Of course it's always best to tell ATC you’re flying the ODP. But I'm wondering if it is actually required in some situations.
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Are you saying you would fly the ODP before getting a Clearance?

“…we can not contact ATC before reaching the TFR? I think I would just continue to fly the DP...”
 
Harry Mudd said:
The Obsitcal Departure Procedure for KAUN crosses over Beal Air Force Base. Typically, there is a TFR over Beal and the ODP goes right though it. The TFR requires pilots to squawk a code and be in contact with ATC. So an IFR flight should be ok as long as you contact ATC before reaching the TFR. KAUN is untowered, so we may need to contact ATC in the air. What if, for some reason, we can not contact ATC before reaching the TFR? I think I would just continue to fly the DP. Is there a better way?
Also, normally you do not need permission to fly an ODP. Does that change if the ODP crosses some special airspace (TFR, MOA, class C/B). Of course it's always best to tell ATC you’re flying the ODP. But I'm wondering if it is actually required in some situations.
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  1. ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE TFR MUST BE ON A DISCRETE CODE ASSIGNED BY AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) FACILITY.
  2. AIRCRAFT MUST BE SQUAWKING THE DISCRETE CODE AT ALL TIMES WHILE IN THE TFR.
  3. ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE TFR MUST REMAIN IN TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC.
  4. NORTHERN CALIFORNIA TRACON, PHONE 916-366-4080, IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.

There is no requirement to obtain a clearance to enter the TFR. You only need to get a code, squawk the code and remain in two way communication. If you file an IFR flight plan and obtain an IFR clearance prior to takeoff, you are cleared into the TFR on the ODP, contact ATC as soon as able.
 
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By my quick measurement, the TFR is about 11 nm away from the airport along the ODP route. I would think this would typically be sufficient, since you obviously called ATC on the ground, got a squawk code and a release, and so they're expecting you to show up within a minute or two or five of getting that clearance. In other words, they are aware of you coming.

The only thing you'd have to contend with is if the frequency is really busy. Is this an actual concern there? I don't know, I've never flown in that area. Or is this more of an academic concern?

What are the actual clearances they give you when departing from AUN? Do they include the ODP, or do they include something like "enter controlled airspace heading 270"?
 
Can you reach clearance by radio on the ground? If not, call them by phone when you’re ready to depart (“…holding short…”).
 
I'm assuming I get a clearance on the ground, but cant make radio contact once in the air. The TFR says you must be in continuous communication with ATC, so technically I shouldn't enter until establishing radio contact. It is unlikely to occur, but radio problems happen. It seemed like a good 'what if' question.
 
Clip4 said:
  1. ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE TFR MUST BE ON A DISCRETE CODE ASSIGNED BY AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC) FACILITY.
  2. AIRCRAFT MUST BE SQUAWKING THE DISCRETE CODE AT ALL TIMES WHILE IN THE TFR.
  3. ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE TFR MUST REMAIN IN TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC.
  4. NORTHERN CALIFORNIA TRACON, PHONE 916-366-4080, IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.

There is no requirement to obtain a clearance to enter the TFR. You only need to get a code, squawk the code and remain in two way communication. If you file an IFR flight plan and obtain an IFR clearance prior to takeoff, you are cleared into the TFR on the ODP, contact ATC as soon as able.
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It’s kinda like a Catch 22 thing. You must comply with your IFR Clearance per FAR. Per the TFR you must be in two-way radio communications with ATC. Obviously the choice to make if you’re on an IFR Clearance but unable to establish com is to fly the Clearance. Number 3 of the TFR should be changed to read ‘ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE TFR MUST REMAIN IN TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC OR ON AN IFR CLEARANCE.’
 
RussR said:
By my quick measurement, the TFR is about 11 nm away from the airport along the ODP route. I would think this would typically be sufficient, since you obviously called ATC on the ground, got a squawk code and a release, and so they're expecting you to show up within a minute or two or five of getting that clearance. In other words, they are aware of you coming.

The only thing you'd have to contend with is if the frequency is really busy. Is this an actual concern there? I don't know, I've never flown in that area. Or is this more of an academic concern?

What are the actual clearances they give you when departing from AUN? Do they include the ODP, or do they include something like "enter controlled airspace heading 270"?
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It wouldn’t be legal for them to say “enter controlled airspace heading…” The floor of Controlled Airspace there is 700 AGL. That is below the MVA. The entering Controlled Airspace heading thing is pretty much an archaic thing nowadays since there is virtually no Uncontrolled Airspace left above 1200 AGL. There could be some places where the MVA/MIA is less than 1200(it will never be less than 1000), but I think it would be rare.
 
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luvflyin said:
It wouldn’t be legal for them to say “enter controlled airspace heading…” The floor of Controlled Airspace there is 700 AGL. That is below the MVA. The entering Controlled Airspace thing is pretty much an archaic thing nowadays since there is virtually no Uncontrolled Airspace left above 1200 AGL. There could be some places where the MVA/MIA is less than 1200(it will never be less than 1000), but I think it would be rare.
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Interesting, since I (and every other pilot departing IFR) get an "enter controlled airspace heading 260" every time when receiving a clearance on the ground at HSD (OKC area). It, like most IFR airports, is in a 700' Class E area.

1705931243154.png
 
luvflyin said:
It’s kinda like a Catch 22 thing. You must comply with your IFR Clearance per FAR. Per the TFR you must be in two-way radio communications with ATC. Obviously the choice to make if you’re on an IFR Clearance but unable to establish com is to fly the Clearance. Number 3 of the TFR should be changed to read ‘ALL AIRCRAFT ENTERING OR EXITING THE TFR MUST REMAIN IN TWO-WAY RADIO COMMUNICATIONS WITH ATC OR ON AN IFR CLEARANCE.’
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I think it's a nice academic exercise but pratically speaking, don't think it's a big deal. I just plotted the ODP on SkyVector and have trouble imagining not being able to establish 2-way communications with NORCAL shortly after takeoff while still on the initial 310° heading..

Academically, assuming there was a problem establishing comm with NORCAL, having already received my IFR clearance, given the choice between (a) hitting something and (b) being questioned about penetrating the TFR, the choice is easy.
 
RussR said:
Interesting, since I (and every other pilot departing IFR) get an "enter controlled airspace heading 260" every time when receiving a clearance on the ground at HSD (OKC area). It, like most IFR airports, is in a 700' Class E area.
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We get them all the time too at our Class G to 700 airport. No idea why it would be illegal.
 
RussR said:
Interesting, since I (and every other pilot departing IFR) get an "enter controlled airspace heading 260" every time when receiving a clearance on the ground at HSD (OKC area). It, like most IFR airports, is in a 700' Class E area.

View attachment 124587
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RussR said:
Interesting, since I (and every other pilot departing IFR) get an "enter controlled airspace heading 260" every time when receiving a clearance on the ground at HSD (OKC area). It, like most IFR airports, is in a 700' Class E area.

View attachment 124587
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And @midlifeflyer .
Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.

However, that is in the procedures for VFR popups requesting IFR Clearance. Not the case here. This is what it say's about departures from airports in Class G Airspace.

(c) At all other airports− Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an
initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.
3. Compatibility with a procedure issued may be verified by asking the pilot if items obtained/ solicited will
allow him/her to comply with local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance.
PHRASEOLOGY−
FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
DEPART (direction or runway).
TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude,
point, or fix) BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.

So, as long as they just say fly heading and don't say turn left or right I guess a case could be made that it's ok. Thing that's got me scratchin' my head is when to apply 3. above. Why does it say 'may' ?
 
luvflyin said:
(c) At all other airports− Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an
initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.
3. Compatibility with a procedure issued may be verified by asking the pilot if items obtained/ solicited will
allow him/her to comply with local traffic pattern, terrain, or obstruction avoidance.
PHRASEOLOGY−
FLY RUNWAY HEADING.
DEPART (direction or runway).
TURN LEFT/RIGHT.
WHEN ENTERING CONTROLLED AIRSPACE (instruction), FLY HEADING (degrees) UNTIL REACHING (altitude,
point, or fix) BEFORE PROCEEDING ON COURSE.
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Exactly. I don't think @RussR or I said anything different.

I think #3 is just reflecting a practical reality. Offhand, two fairly common scenarios. In both, I think it's a good idea to advise ATC of the plan when reading back the clearance, if ATC is concerned about it, they "may" ask whether that initial heading is workable.

1. There's a simple departure procedure which requires a climb to, say, 1,000' AGL before making any turns due to an obstruction. Since its an ODP, I can comply with it regardless of my clearance.

2. The weather at the departure airport is VFR and there are aircraft in the pattern. I'm going to be continuing straight out and not making a turn until clear of the pattern traffic even though I will be above 700 AGL.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I think it's a nice academic exercise but pratically speaking, don't think it's a big deal. I just plotted the ODP on SkyVector and have trouble imagining not being able to establish 2-way communications with NORCAL shortly after takeoff while still on the initial 310° heading..

Academically, assuming there was a problem establishing comm with NORCAL, having already received my IFR clearance, given the choice between (a) hitting something and (b) being questioned about penetrating the TFR, the choice is easy.
Click to expand...
I suppose you if you read the TFR literally, you can turn off your radio once you are inside the TFR, fly around all you want and turn it back on when exiting.
 
Harry Mudd said:
The Obsitcal Departure Procedure for KAUN crosses over Beal Air Force Base. Typically, there is a TFR over Beal and the ODP goes right though it. The TFR requires pilots to squawk a code and be in contact with ATC. So an IFR flight should be ok as long as you contact ATC before reaching the TFR. KAUN is untowered, so we may need to contact ATC in the air. What if, for some reason, we can not contact ATC before reaching the TFR? I think I would just continue to fly the DP. Is there a better way?
Also, normally you do not need permission to fly an ODP. Does that change if the ODP crosses some special airspace (TFR, MOA, class C/B). Of course it's always best to tell ATC your flying the ODP. But I'm wondering if it is actually required in some situations.
Click to expand...
It’s recommended (somewhere :rolleyes:)that you inform ATC if you’re planning to fly an ODP that’s not specifically part of your clearance.I would definitely do so if the ODP penetrated a TFR.

As far as “Is there a better way?” Unless you have an alternate procedure that you have determined will clear obstructions, the ODP is realistically the only way.
 
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