Odd tfrs in Kansas?

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Pre-takeoff checklist
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david
Was looking at the map of tfrs and there are five of them in a line near Emporia, Kansas with a somewhat regular spacing. They are all 1 mile radius and up to 1000ft and type is listed as hazards.

link (will probably go bad soon):
http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/cc/scale4/tile_5_5.html

The small size and regular spacing caught my attention. Anyone know what these might be?
 
gas pipeline venting, all worded similar except for location

EMP, KS. EFFECTIVE 1307081300 TO 1307081800 UTC, 3 S EMP TO 50 SE EMP. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 91.137(A)(1) TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE IN EFFECT FOR GAS RELEASE ONLY RELIEF AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS UNDER DIRECTION OF PANHANDLE EAST PIPELINE ARE AUTHORIZED IN THE AIRSPACE AT AND BELOW 1000 FT AGL WITHIN A 1 NMR OF 381725N/961134W OR THE EMPORIA /EMP/ VORTAC 261 DEGREE RADIAL AT 2.5 NM PANHANDLE EAST PIPELINE PHONE 816-223-5110 IS IN CHARGE OF ON SCENE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ACTIVITY. KANSAS CITY /ZKC/ ARTCC 913-254-8500 IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY.
 
Thanks
... I totally missed that there was a link for notam text on the tfr site. :mad2:. i feel a little silly now.
 
So I have to worry about a $2000 fine if I discard the fuel from my fuel strainer on the ramp and the pipeline company can just vent their pipeline to open air ? I thought it was all about the polar bears.......
 
So I have to worry about a $2000 fine if I discard the fuel from my fuel strainer on the ramp and the pipeline company can just vent their pipeline to open air ? I thought it was all about the polar bears.......

Wasn't aware of this (but not surprised) . Can you post a link to the reg (EPA?) and what the "proper" disposal method is?

Lots of recent threads on government actions and reg's that seem solely aimed at surpressing general aviation (along with free enterprise).
 
So I have to worry about a $2000 fine if I discard the fuel from my fuel strainer on the ramp and the pipeline company can just vent their pipeline to open air ? I thought it was all about the polar bears.......

I know it sounds hypocritical, but there's differences.

Dumping your fuel sample (if anyone is even watching) is unnecessary and easily avoidable. It's just laziness. It directly puts lead into the groundwater.

The gas venting is done under controlled circumstances, does not contain any hazardous materials other than the natural gas itself, and is probably unavoidable to some extent. Now, I don't know WHY they do these gas vents, or if the gas is burned as it's vented or what, but I'm guessing there's a legitimate reason for it and the proper EPA rules are being followed. For all we know they could be paying a substantial price to do it, too.
 
Wasn't aware of this (but not surprised) . Can you post a link to the reg (EPA?) and what the "proper" disposal method is?

Lots of recent threads on government actions and reg's that seem solely aimed at surpressing general aviation (along with free enterprise).

Not sure about the reg itself, but do you really just dump the fuel?? I've heard of people doing this but thought it was something that happened decades ago and not anymore. I always put the (clean) sample back in the plane, and if it was contaminated it would go in the fuel collection bins at most airports. Don't know what I'd do if I found contaminated fuel at an airport that didn't have a collection area, but I think they all do.

Lead is really nasty stuff, and even if it's a small amount, please try to avoid dumping it into the ground if at all possible. It runs into the storm drains and goes straight to your local river or lake, or seeps into the groundwater. It's also one of the big targets environmental and neighborhood groups use to target small, neighborhood airports.

My guess is that it's not an EPA reg but local/state laws that vary depending on where you live.
 
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Lead is really nasty stuff, and even if it's a small amount, please try to avoid dumping it into the ground if at all possible. It runs into the storm drains and goes straight to your local river or lake, or seeps into the groundwater. It's also one of the big targets environmental and neighborhood groups use to target small, neighborhood airports.
And where does it go when you burn it in the airplane engine?

Why aren't you running unleaded auto fuel in your airplane?
 
And where does it go when you burn it in the airplane engine?

Honestly I am not an expert, but as I understand it, the lead is still a problem after burning. It's more dispersed but still ends up somewhere. However, I believe many of the OTHER hazardous materials in gas, like Benzene, are either combusted or disintegrate in the atmosphere.

Why aren't you running unleaded auto fuel in your airplane?
Because my plane is not approved for MoGas. Would if I could.

Perhaps I was too preachy about the lead. But I also believe it's a bit naive to act like dumping gasoline straight into the ground is no riskier than burning it thousands of feet in the air. Regardless, if there IS an approved disposal site at the airport, why not use it?
 
I wonder where lead originally comes from. Oh yeah, the ground. How awful that we put stuff back where we got it from.
 
I wonder where lead originally comes from. Oh yeah, the ground. How awful that we put stuff back where we got it from.

Seriously? Oil comes from the ground too, would you be offended if somebody spilled a few barrels on your lawn? There are plenty of highly toxic materials that "come from the ground" but it doesn't mean you want them in the ground water or on your property.
 
Seriously? Oil comes from the ground too, would you be offended if somebody spilled a few barrels on your lawn? There are plenty of highly toxic materials that "come from the ground" but it doesn't mean you want them in the ground water or on your property.


Nope. Means I wouldn't have to cut grass for a while - which is fine by me.
 
Honestly I am not an expert, but as I understand it, the lead is still a problem after burning. It's more dispersed but still ends up somewhere. However, I believe many of the OTHER hazardous materials in gas, like Benzene, are either combusted or disintegrate in the atmosphere.


Because my plane is not approved for MoGas. Would if I could.

Perhaps I was too preachy about the lead. But I also believe it's a bit naive to act like dumping gasoline straight into the ground is no riskier than burning it thousands of feet in the air. Regardless, if there IS an approved disposal site at the airport, why not use it?

I'm not suggesting to not use the disposal, but the simple fact is that the lead you burn in the air settles on the ground and in the water just like if you dumped it directly from your sample. Yes, things like Benzene would tend to burn. If you are running lean of peak you get mostly CO2 and H2O (but NOx goes up). Rich of peak, you are dumping lots of unburned HC in various forms into the air (but less NOx).
 
and if it was contaminated it would go in the fuel collection bins at most airports. Don't know what I'd do if I found contaminated fuel at an airport that didn't have a collection area, but I think they all do.

I'm not contesting anything else you wrote, there's enough other people here to do that, but for this part, well, I think you need to go visit some more airports!
 
Wasn't aware of this (but not surprised) . Can you post a link to the reg (EPA?) and what the "proper" disposal method is?

Lots of recent threads on government actions and reg's that seem solely aimed at surpressing general aviation (along with free enterprise).

I was actually low on the possible fine, it's 50k not 2k if you pour out your fuel tester on the ramp in FL:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/aviation/environment.shtm
 
One of the reasons for taking the gas sample is to let the trash out of the settling bowl. I'm going to dump it and not put it back in the gas tank.
 
Not sure about the reg itself, but do you really just dump the fuel?? I've heard of people doing this but thought it was something that happened decades ago and not anymore.

That's what my instructors taught me to do (in 2001). People look at me weird when I put it back in the tank.
 
Not sure about the reg itself, but do you really just dump the fuel?? I've heard of people doing this but thought it was something that happened decades ago and not anymore. I always put the (clean) sample back in the plane, and if it was contaminated it would go in the fuel collection bins at most airports. Don't know what I'd do if I found contaminated fuel at an airport that didn't have a collection area, but I think they all do.

Lead is really nasty stuff, and even if it's a small amount, please try to avoid dumping it into the ground if at all possible. It runs into the storm drains and goes straight to your local river or lake, or seeps into the groundwater. It's also one of the big targets environmental and neighborhood groups use to target small, neighborhood airports.

My guess is that it's not an EPA reg but local/state laws that vary depending on where you live.
In the Midwest I'd wager 80% of the pilots just dump it on the ground. Probably higher. Only place left worth living.
 
In the Midwest I'd wager 80% of the pilots just dump it on the ground. Probably higher. Only place left worth living.


Obviously they aren't thinking of the Children?!!!!
 
All the unleaded around here has ethanol in it, and my O-540 250HP and IO-360 210HP is not approved for auto fuel or ethanol.

Obviously, you do not care about the fact that you spewing lead into the air for children to breathe. Otherwise you would have chosen aircraft that could burn auto fuel and/or E-10.

:nono:

(The fact that a Rotax 912 won't tow a glider for **** is beside the point)


Oh, and for the record - since I burn purd near only auto fuel, I dump the stuff into my car.
 
In the Midwest I'd wager 80% of the pilots just dump it on the ground. Probably higher. Only place left worth living.

Interesting, thanks Jesse. I've lived in major metro areas, and DC in particular, for too long, because I would have guessed some bureaucrat would have gotten involved and made a stink about it by now :lol:
 
Interesting, thanks Jesse. I've lived in major metro areas, and DC in particular, for too long, because I would have guessed some bureaucrat would have gotten involved and made a stink about it by now :lol:


They let little planes fly in the DC area..:dunno::yikes:...

Seriously... you really need to get out and see what the REAL America looks like.. Seeing it from only the DC point of view must be sickening..
 
They let little planes fly in the DC area..:dunno::yikes:...

Seriously... you really need to get out and see what the REAL America looks like.. Seeing it from only the DC point of view must be sickening..

"You mean you don't have to lock your doors?" :hairraise::hairraise:
 
We only use the doors to keep the sheep in.. :D;)

Hell, I've left my doors open. Not just unlocked. Open. The biggest surprise was that my dog was inside waiting for me when I got home from work. Of course, it happened to be raining that day, and he hates to get wet.
 
\__[Ô]__/;1202660 said:
Was looking at the map of tfrs and there are five of them in a line near Emporia, Kansas with a somewhat regular spacing. They are all 1 mile radius and up to 1000ft and type is listed as hazards.

link (will probably go bad soon):
http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr_map_ims/html/cc/scale4/tile_5_5.html

The small size and regular spacing caught my attention. Anyone know what these might be?

When pipeline segments are taken out of service for repairs, it is common practice to depressurize the pipeline and vent the natural gas to the atmosphere. Then it usually gets followed up with a inert nitrogen gas purge depending on the repairs. The natural gas can be recovered at a large expense, but is not required by the EPA, like it is with my A/C systems.
 
Doors? The across the road neighbor took three years to replace his garage door when it broke according to neighbors #1 and #2. He left the stuff in the garage too.

Only time it looked stupid was when the snowdrifts piled up in there, they say. We weren't here for that little country drama. He put up a new door this summer.

We're having fun watching the city-slickers behind us buy chickens and goats and put them in little pens they made out of chicken wire and 2x4s.

We are all taking bets on whether the wind will toss the chickens, pen and all, over their fence into the electrical easement first, or if they'll be rescuing chickens from the first foot of snow in the fall as they're squished up against the chicken wire roof on the thing.

The goats are babies, and we expect they'll learn to eat their pen soon and then eat their trampoline. I'll probably have a goat or two visiting in a few months once they figure out how to get out. The dog will have a hissy fit.

I bet I could walk up to just about any house and find an unlocked door. Might also find someone behind it with a shotgun. And/or find that a neighborhood posse was looking for me afterward. On horseback. Ha.

(Even this former pig farming as a teenage kid guy is having a double-take or two when he waves at the neighbor kid walking his sheep down the road. Too many years in the city/hell hole. Every weekend it's four wheelers, dirt bikes, and horses wandering the neighborhood now. Since Karen wants nothing to do with a horse, the motor toys may need to be purchased to have something for visitors to do. The tractor only goes so fast and only carries one. ;) )
 
In Jefferson Co, MO, you don't have to lock your doors because even the little old ladies are armed to the teeth. Some of them wear t-shirts that read: "I shoot first and then call 911."

Seriously, the St. Louis city criminals are scared spitless to come into Jefferson Co.

Uh, how did we get here from a Kansas gas pipeline?
 
In Jefferson Co, MO, you don't have to lock your doors because even the little old ladies are armed to the teeth. Some of them wear t-shirts that read: "I shoot first and then call 911."

Seriously, the St. Louis city criminals are scared spitless to come into Jefferson Co.

Uh, how did we get here from a Kansas gas pipeline?

Probably via I-70.
 
In Jefferson Co, MO, you don't have to lock your doors because even the little old ladies are armed to the teeth. Some of them wear t-shirts that read: "I shoot first and then call 911."

You are sure they are not just protecting their meth-labs ?
 
In the Midwest I'd wager 80% of the pilots just dump it on the ground. Probably higher. Only place left worth living.

I'd go with higher. Was a long time before I knew people did anything other than dump it on the ground to dispose of it. If any of the airports I've been to around here have a collection area for it, I've never heard about it.
 
Uh, how did we get here from a Kansas gas pipeline?

After getting the notification email and reading Nate's chicken/goat post, I thought where and when did I post on this topic...

Hey, I get off topic all the time. I really enjoy learning from you guys. You make me research and learn about history/current events. Lot of fun when you can't afford $70/hr to fly.
 
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After getting the notification email and reading Nate's post, I thought where and when did I post on this topic...

Hey, I get off topic all the time. I really enjoy learning from you guys. You make me research and learn about history/current events. Lot of fun when you can't afford $70/hr to fly.

I'm just entertaining and distracting myself while the airplane is in the shop.

When I get quiet, you know it's back... 'cause I won't be wasting any time getting airborne... :)
 
>> many of the OTHER hazardous materials in gas[oline], like Benzene, are either combusted or disintegrate in the atmosphere.

There's no benzene in avgas, and less than 1/2% benzene in mogas. If you've got a time machine, you might find benzene in both in the 1950's.

Give us a shout when you return! :)

Paul
 
Try a Comanche fuel sump . . .

I bought a dish bucket to use under the airplane to catch the sump. Actually I bought 2 - one is a permanent resident under the airplane and the other lives inside - the problem is what to do with it after I sump it after refueling . . .
 
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