O Jay's RV8...

steingar

steingar

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steingar
Jay had a thread about the possible purchase of an RV8, I must echo the other poster's comments on not flying the thing. They are very addictive machines.

Most builders keep records, and the EAA has it's technical counselors programs. I might contact them to get a TC to look over logs and airframe of an experimental I was thinking of buying.

And thinking I am. There is a very nice RV6 for sale on my airfield, and the third wheel is indeed in the right place. Of course, that presupposes I have lots more money than I do.

Doesn't look like much of a couple's trip airplane, not much room in those things for luggage. Passengers are the last thing for which I use my back seat.
 
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bartmc said:
I wouldn't fly them for other reasons.

They need a battery to run the prop and engine, if a wire breaks, that's it.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20071120X01821&key=1

Or they explode when they land.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20100509X25424&key=1

Or the wings come off.

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20121126X24312&key=1
Click to expand...

Dont want one? dont buy one. Its that simple.

If it was built right, and maintained right, and flown right....you get tremendous return on your investment.
 
It is amazing to me that some Pilot's of America members are constantly trying to tear down what other people fly. :mad2:

These same people talk about freedom and individual rights yet bash people who chose to build their plane or fly experimentals.

Pilots Of America should be striving for respect for ALL aircraft and the pilots that fly them.
 
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Geico266 said:
It is amazing to me that some Pilot's of America members are constantly trying to tear down what other people fly.
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You should try and develop a thicker skin about this. Every time anyone says anything the least bit bad about RVs you start ranting. You managed to shut down a rather good and informative thread with this behavior.

There are some rather good reasons not to purchase an Ex/Ab aircraft, and a Vans in particular, just like there are some good reasons not to purchase a Cherokee or Skyhawk. Live with it. They aren't for everyone.
 
steingar said:
You should try and develop a thicker skin about this. Every time anyone says anything the least bit bad about RVs you start ranting. You managed to shut down a rather good and informative thread with this behavior.

There are some rather good reasons not to purchase an Ex/Ab aircraft, and a Vans in particular, just like there are some good reasons not to purchase a Cherokee or Skyhawk. Live with it. They aren't for everyone.
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You are correct, it was a good thread until the usual bashers started spewing the same old misinformation about EABs.

You are also correct, not everyone can fly them hence the reason Vans and EAA have called for more leeway for using them for training.
 
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Geico266 said:
It is amazing to me that some Pilot's of America members are constantly trying to tear down what other people fly. :mad2:

These same people talk about freedom and individual rights yet bash people who chose to build their plane or fly experimentals.

Pilots Of America should be striving for respect for ALL aircraft and the pilots that fly them.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:
 
Geico266 said:
It is amazing to me that some Pilot's of America members are constantly trying to tear down what other people fly. :mad2:

These same people talk about freedom and individual rights yet bash people who chose to build their plane or fly experimentals.

Pilots Of America should be striving for respect for ALL aircraft and the pilots that fly them.
Click to expand...

I posted 3 NTSB's with factuals, didn't bash anyone, just stated why I don't fly them. Seems I should be as entitled to my reasons for why I don't fly them as you are to the reasons you do.

Experimental amateur-built (E-AB) aircraft represent nearly 10 percent of the U.S. general aviation fleet, but these aircraft accounted for approximately 15 percent of the total-and 21 percent of the fatal-U.S. general aviation (GA) accidents in 2011.
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I believe that equates to roughly 4 times the accident rate and 3 times the fatality rate of certifieds. I'll hedge my bets where I can.

That's just my reason for not flying them, no bashing just my reason. I respect your decision to jump off a cliff, it doesn't mean I think it's the best thing for me to do.
 
bartmc said:
I believe that equates to roughly 4 times the accident rate and 3 times the fatality rate of certifieds. I'll hedge my bets where I can.
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See what doing an overhead break does. :rofl:
 
Geico266 said:
You are correct, it was a good thread until the usual bashers started spewing the same old misinformation about EABs.

You are also correct, not everyone can fly them hence the reason Vans and EAA have called for more leeway for using them for training.
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Actually it was a good thread until someone stepped in and started childish name calling and making misinformed, if not downright slanderous allegations against another poster for stating his opinion.
 
What makes you think you know more about what you should want to fly than Geico does?

bartmc said:
I posted 3 NTSB's with factuals, didn't bash anyone, just stated why I don't fly them. Seems I should be as entitled to my reasons for why I don't fly them as you are to the reasons you do.



I believe that equates to roughly 4 times the accident rate and 3 times the fatality rate of certifieds. I'll hedge my bets where I can.

That's just my reason for not flying them, no bashing just my reason. I respect your decision to jump off a cliff, it doesn't mean I think it's the best thing for me to do.
Click to expand...
 
steingar said:
There is a very nice RV6 for sale on my airfield, and the third wheel is indeed in the right place. Of course, that presupposes I have lots more money than I do.
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Bad thing about RV's, I forget about the money I don't have, and start wondering how many jobs I can hold simultaneously to pay for a kit.
 
bartmc said:
I posted 3 NTSB's with factuals, didn't bash anyone, just stated why I don't fly them. Seems I should be as entitled to my reasons for why I don't fly them as you are to the reasons you do.
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And not a single one of them was an RV-8....which is what the thread was about.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Actually it was a good thread until someone stepped in and started childish name calling and making misinformed, if not downright slanderous allegations against another poster for stating his opinion.
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wabower said:
What makes you think you know more about what you should want to fly than Geico does?
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I want to publicly apologize to Wayne for going over the line.
 
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bartmc said:
I posted 3 NTSB's with factuals, didn't bash anyone, just stated why I don't fly them. Seems I should be as entitled to my reasons for why I don't fly them as you are to the reasons you do.



I believe that equates to roughly 4 times the accident rate and 3 times the fatality rate of certifieds. I'll hedge my bets where I can.

That's just my reason for not flying them, no bashing just my reason. I respect your decision to jump off a cliff, it doesn't mean I think it's the best thing for me to do.
Click to expand...

If you had maintained this level of respect for the pilots that do fly EAB we would never have had a problem.
 
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Jayhawk said:
Bad thing about RV's, I forget about the money I don't have, and start wondering how many jobs I can hold simultaneously to pay for a kit.
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Been there done that. I taught math at night at a local college for a couple of years to fund my first airplane and the start of the RV. After a while, the project slowed and I earned enough raises in my "regular" career that I no longer needed a second job to suppliment my aviation addiction.

The reality is that it is still possible to build a <$50k RV (maybe <$40k) if you don't get on the hamster wheel of chasing the latest, greatest avionics and don't mind scrounging a bit.
 
Jayhawk said:
Bad thing about RV's, I forget about the money I don't have, and start wondering how many jobs I can hold simultaneously to pay for a kit.
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This is why partnerships and flying clubs were very popular in the 70's & 80's. And making a resurgence now. We have an RV-9a on our field with 4 owners, 3 flying. The 4th owner is the wife of the builder. He died about 2 years ago. Rather than just sell the plane she sold shares of it to help out 3 of the builders friends that could not afford the entire plane.

Where there is a will there is a way. :D
 
bartmc said:
I believe that equates to roughly 4 times the accident rate and 3 times the fatality rate of certifieds. I'll hedge my bets where I can.

That's just my reason for not flying them, no bashing just my reason. I respect your decision to jump off a cliff, it doesn't mean I think it's the best thing for me to do.
Click to expand...

And that is in my opinion a perfectly good reason not to fly one.

To try and push the discussion forward in a positive tone, I should point out that some analysis had indicated much of the high rate of accidents and fatal accidents in Ex/Ab aircraft is a lack of training, both for builders flying their newly created airframes and owners transitioning into new types. There are people doing overhead breaks into the ground, but they are the minority as I understand it. It makes good intuitive sense, I can only imagine my own ham fistedness after being used to a stable and docile platform like my Cherokee and going into something hotter, faster, and more responsive like a Vans. I could easily become a statistic without some good transition training.

The FAA could go a long way toward correcting this by allowing CFIs to conduct transition training in their experimental aircraft, allowing them to recoup some of their cost of such training through the rental of said aircraft. As I understand it to do so currently involves a rather large amount of bureaucratic wrangling. Of course the FAA will probably do no such thing, but will far more likely issue even more restrictive regulations for Ex/Ab.
 
steingar said:
Jay had a thread about the possible purchase of an RV8, I must echo the other poster's comments on not flying the thing. They are very addictive machines.

Most builders keep records, and the EAA has it's technical counselors programs. I might contact them to get a TC to look over logs and airframe of an experimental I was thinking of buying.

And thinking I am. There is a very nice RV6 for sale on my airfield, and the third wheel is indeed in the right place. Of course, that presupposes I have lots more money than I do.

Doesn't look like much of a couple's trip airplane, not much room in those things for luggage. Passengers are the last thing for which I use my back seat.
Click to expand...


How much stuff do you really need to take on your average trip? How long is it? How much of the flying you do is trip taking? Is one of the reasons you are considering this plane that you want to pursue more local and day trip flying?

Personally I would get a 4, but the 6 is a pretty nifty plane.
 
Henning said:
How much stuff do you really need to take on your average trip? How long is it? How much of the flying you do is trip taking? Is one of the reasons you are considering this plane that you want to pursue more local and day trip flying?

Personally I would get a 4, but the 6 is a pretty nifty plane.
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You are obviously single.
 
bartmc said:
I posted 3 NTSB's with factuals, didn't bash anyone, just stated why I don't fly them. Seems I should be as entitled to my reasons for why I don't fly them as you are to the reasons you do.



I believe that equates to roughly 4 times the accident rate and 3 times the fatality rate of certifieds. I'll hedge my bets where I can.

That's just my reason for not flying them, no bashing just my reason. I respect your decision to jump off a cliff, it doesn't mean I think it's the best thing for me to do.
Click to expand...

It is what it is. However, one must consider that these may very well have been projects built and flown by someone that did not possess the capacity to do so. Visual inspection and lunch with the builder/owner and if both pass muster I am fully confident of a flown off home built.
 
steingar said:
Doesn't look like much of a couple's trip airplane, not much room in those things for luggage. Passengers are the last thing for which I use my back seat.
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Rachel and I have taken the -7A from Iowa to: Las Vegas; Columbus, GA; Charleston, SC; Boston; NYC; Petit Jean, AR; 6Y9 (a couple of times); and countless other trips that I can't remember off-hand...

The Petit Jean, AR and 6Y9 trips included enough stuff for two people to camp for a long weekend - and no, we don't have super-expensive feather-weight REI camping gear.

The Boston/NYC trip included enough luggage for both of us for a 5-day trip.

Now.. With all that said, since Rachel has flown in the RV-10, she hates the idea of travelling in the -7A. The -7A is indeed 'cozy' (especially with winter coats on) and doesn't have much room for 'roaming about the cabin'.
 
CJones said:
Rachel and I have taken the -7A from Iowa to: Las Vegas; Columbus, GA; Charleston, SC; Boston; NYC; Petit Jean, AR; 6Y9 (a couple of times); and countless other trips that I can't remember off-hand...

The Petit Jean, AR and 6Y9 trips included enough stuff for two people to camp for a long weekend - and no, we don't have super-expensive feather-weight REI camping gear.

The Boston/NYC trip included enough luggage for both of us for a 5-day trip.

Now.. With all that said, since Rachel has flown in the RV-10, she hates the idea of travelling in the -7A. The -7A is indeed 'cozy' (especially with winter coats on) and doesn't have much room for 'roaming about the cabin'.
Click to expand...

How is the heat situation? Why are winter coats required in flight?
 
kyleb said:
Been there done that. I taught math at night at a local college for a couple of years to fund my first airplane and the start of the RV. After a while, the project slowed and I earned enough raises in my "regular" career that I no longer needed a second job to suppliment my aviation addiction.

The reality is that it is still possible to build a <$50k RV (maybe <$40k) if you don't get on the hamster wheel of chasing the latest, greatest avionics and don't mind scrounging a bit.
Click to expand...

Geico266 said:
Where there is a will there is a way. :D
Click to expand...

Definitely a goal in the future, hands full with 60-70 hour weeks right now just to finish up my certificate. Overtime's definitely worth it for that, and having a project like that would be well worth the work too.
 
Henning said:
How is the heat situation? Why are winter coats required in flight?
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For our particular plane, there is a diffuser mounted on the cockpit side of the firewall. It spits out plenty of heat, but the problem is that it gets caught under the panel. I'm 6'7", so I have a lot of leg tucked under the panel, and it creates an air dam.

We never took the time to put together a real fix. Now that we're in Georgia, 'cold' isn't nearly as bad as Iowa 'cold'.
 
steingar said:
Doesn't look like much of a couple's trip airplane, not much room in those things for luggage. Passengers are the last thing for which I use my back seat.
Click to expand...

SWMBO and I have camped at Oshkosh 3 times out of the RV. A tent, chairs, a cooler, clothes, bedrolls, air mattresses, tools, tiedowns, etc. About 80 pounds of stuff. You can't go crazy, but unless you're on an Everest expedition, you ought to be fine.

Oh, and loaded that way, I still have range to go direct OSH-ATL unless I get a significant headwind.

Soft sided luggage is your friend. The cargo space is reasonably large, but the pass-through (at least on my sliding canopy) is tight for some hard sided items.

But the reality is that I fly solo 75% of the time. A lightly loaded RV is a dream to fly. Truly the only airplane I've flown where the vertical dimension isn't a struggle.
 
Did the RV crowd ever put together a "Build Center" program? I remember hearing rumblings of having 5 around the country but I don't know if anything became of it.
 
kyleb said:
The cargo space is reasonably large, but the pass-through (at least on my sliding canopy) is tight for some hard sided items.
Click to expand...

You should look into the mod that makes your slider into a "slider + tip-up combination". We did that on slider on the -7A and it makes it so much easier to get stuff in and out of the luggage area.
 
Henning said:
How is the heat situation? Why are winter coats required in flight?
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Seal the cockpit reasonably well, and you're good to 10F in my experience using the stock heat muff. If you're in a colder climate, you can put boots on the aileron push-pulls to stop air intrusion there. You can also add another heat muff, etc. Ultimately, they heat and cool like any other aircraft.
 
CJones said:
You should look into the mod that makes your slider into a "slider + tip-up combination". We did that on slider on the -7A and it makes it so much easier to get stuff in and out of the luggage area.
Click to expand...

I almost mentioned that mod. The reality is that I only do about a half dozen "loaded" X/C's a year, so it isn't a big enough deal to take the time to fix...
 
Henning said:
Did the RV crowd ever put together a "Build Center" program? I remember hearing rumblings of having 5 around the country but I don't know if anything became of it.
Click to expand...

There are many of these around the country. Tea, SD, Boone, Iowa, Lee's Summit, MO. Hick's Field in TX. Builders share tools, skills, ideas, cross check their work. Ect. Always better to have a couple sets of eyes looking over your shoulder. The friends you make building remain friends for life. My -12 was the second customer built plane to fly. The group of guys I built with are amazing friends that I talk with every day. The brotherhood of EAB is unlike no other in aviation.

There is nothing better than flying a plane you built with your own two hands.

I would compare the workmanship in most of these shops as second to none. Quality is an obsession, almost to a fault.
 
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CJones said:
You should look into the mod that makes your slider into a "slider + tip-up combination". We did that on slider on the -7A and it makes it so much easier to get stuff in and out of the luggage area.
Click to expand...

kyleb said:
I almost mentioned that mod. The reality is that I only do about a half dozen "loaded" X/C's a year, so it isn't a big enough deal to take the time to fix...
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The ol "Slider -v- Tip Up" debate. See you guys! Even EAB guys argue! :rofl:

You should see the thread on using primer!!!!!:hairraise::eek::no::lol:
 
Geico266 said:
There are many of these around the country. Boone, Iowa, Lee's Summit, MO. Hick's Field in TX. Builders share tools, skills, ideas, cross check their work. Ect. Always better to have a couple sets of eyes looking over your shoulder. The friends you make building remain friends for life. My -12 was the second customer built plane to fly. The group of guys I built with are amazing friends that I talk with every day. The brotherhood of EAB is unlike no other in aviation.

There is nothing better than flying a plane you built with your own two hands.
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At Foley's on Long Beach Ward used to rent space in the back hangar to home builders. He got pushed out for Mercury Aviation, like the field needed another biz jet FBO at that intersection. Then they demolished the Douglas hangars, WTF were they thinking there? What an FBO/CRS that could have been. Lot of interesting stuff used to go on at LGB. Foley's was also the QB hangar for meetings.
 
Henning said:
At Foley's on Long Beach Ward used to rent space in the back hangar to home builders. He got pushed out for Mercury Aviation, like the field needed another biz jet FBO at that intersection. Then they demolished the Douglas hangars, WTF were they thinking there? What an FBO/CRS that could have been. Lot of interesting stuff used to go on at LGB. Foley's was also the QB hangar for meetings.
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Lee's Summit, MO is just the opposite. The EAA chapter there builds their own hangars and rents them to builders. They currently have 4 large hangars and are building 2 more. What recession? :dunno:

EAB is taking off like nothing else in GA.
 
Geico266 said:
Lee's Summit, MO is just the opposite. The EAA chapter there builds their own hangars and rents them to builders. They currently have 4 large hangars and are building 2 more. What recession? :dunno:

EAB is taking off like nothing else in GA.
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I've never had a problem with it, but then I don't have a problem with 103 either.
 
Just found this thread. Thank you, Doctor Steingar (although we appear to now have two RV-8 threads).

Re: Safety of Certificated vs. Homebuilt aircraft.

Certificated aircraft, with the government's "help", are designed to be as "safe" as possible while flinging oneself bodily through the ether.

Homebuilts are designed to be as fun as possible, while maintaining a level of safety that will keep the designer out of court. In my opinion, the Van's designs have proven over time to meet or exceed this standard.

WRT my personal safety, let me say this: When I was raising my kids, I felt a responsibility when flying to protect myself and them inside a certificated, uber-"safe" plane like Atlas, our Cherokee 235 Pathfinder. Within its tremendously forgiving flight envelope, my family was as "safe" as one could expect flying G.A., and we roamed the continent as a family for over a decade.

Now, the kids are grown, our youngest will be leaving the nest soon, and my genetic responsibility to the human race has been largely fulfilled. A thousand years ago, I would be dead by now, so IMHO what's left of my lifespan is just icing on the cake.

Why on earth would I NOT be interested in flying a faster, more fun airplane, at this stage of the game?
 
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