Northwest Airlines Pilots demise....

FlyNE said:
Now, I agree that it's not exactly sworn testimony, but it may not "pure speculation" either.
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Keep in mind that the middleman in this (the writer of the account which has been spread around) is not just a friend of the affected pilot, but an ALPA union official at the affected pilot's base. That makes it thirdhand information filtered through someone with an ax to grind, which is, in my estimation, worse than "pure speculation."
 
Ron Levy said:
Keep in mind that the middleman in this (the writer of the account which has been spread around) is not just a friend of the affected pilot, but an ALPA union official at the affected pilot's base. That makes it thirdhand information filtered through someone with an ax to grind, which is, in my estimation, worse than "pure speculation."
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Kinda like most, if not all, of this thread.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Careful there. It happens. BTDT. Also what happens is a plane will fly out of range of that particular sector and either the controller was late on the handoff or forgot. BTDT too.
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Same here...I just looked up the next center freq and contacted them and explained. They admitted they lost me and was happy I reported back.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Just about everybody, as far as I can tell.
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I dunno if I agree with that assessment. Just because people don't tolerate sloppy and inattentive airline pilots doesn't mean people don't tolerate airline pilots in general.

For example - we all love you, Greg.
 
SCCutler said:
I've had that as well (Austin late in the night comes to mind...), but perhaps the reason you have not encountered the "same-controller, multiple transmitter sites" situation described above is that you have tended to fly in busier airspace in which the workload would simply not allow a single controller to handle so large an area that they'd need multiple frequencies. It does happen with Houston Center (which, inexplicably, is responsible for much of west Texas, and with Albuquerque Center.
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Ah, but see, you're even confusing it! I fly in less-busy airspace frequently - I tell ya what, nothing puts you to sleep like Des Moines Approach at 1 in the morning :rofl: - But my usual situation is that I'm talking with Chicago Center or Minneapolis Center, late at night, and they ARE working multiple *sectors* with multiple *frequencies*. Thus, I frequently hear the ATC side only, and often get "Skylane 271G, change to my frequency, 1xx.x."

The confusion in this thread is that many of us have experienced the above, while a comparative few seem to have experienced what could cause the hearing-only-the-airplanes situation, and that is NOT multiple frequencies, it is *one sector* with *one frequency* on *multiple transmitters* which would be used more often in less-populated areas where one sector covers a very large geographic area, one so large that a single transmitter would not have the range to reach all the aircraft in that area.

Yeah, it took me a while to get it too. ;)
 
Ron Levy said:
Probably anyone who works for one, and almost certainly anyone who's an ALPA union official.
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xkcd_citation_needed_edit.jpg


If you are going to reach that far to pull out a statement claiming that anyone who is an ALPA official is anti-air carrier you need to back that up with something. I gotta call your statement a gross misrepresentation of what ALPA does.
 
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smigaldi said:
xkcd_citation_needed_edit.jpg


If you are going to reach that far to pull out a statement claiming that anyone who is an ALPA official is anti-air carrier you need to back that up with something. I gotta call your statement as a gross misrepresentation of what ALPA does.
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If you don't believe him it's your responsibility to contact the FAA chief counsel. Cap'n Ron cannot be expected to provide verifiable documentation to support his assertions.
 
roncachamp said:
If you don't believe him it's your responsibility to contact the FAA chief counsel. Cap'n Ron cannot be expected to provide verifiable documentation to support his assertions.
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Sure he can, he's the one who made them. It's on the responsibility of the person making claims to prove their truth.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Really? I've never heard a controller be selective with their transmitters, they tend to broadcast in all the sectors they're working - Helps keep them from getting bugged by us pesky pilots when they're busy. ;)
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Happens often. Depends on where you fly.

Scott Skylane said:
Sorry, that's just not true. If you only hear the aircraft side of the center communication, then you are on the wrong frequency, or out of range, period.
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Not necessarily true.

gismo said:
I think you've got that backwards. When a controller is using multiple transmitters on the same frequency, it's common to hear ATC talking to an airplane and not hear the responses. AFaIK controllers have the option of keying multiple transmitters at the same time or individually and it's when they use the multiple xmit function that you hear them and a weak or unreadable response. If the airplane is truly in a different sector I believe they'd likely be on a different frequency but you may still hear ATC if they're transmitting on multiple freqs.

The only time you might hear an airplane and not hear ATC would be when ATC is using a more distant transmitter on the same frequency and not keying all the transmitters so channeled. While this does happen, it's rare IME, at least below the flight levels.


It would probably be easy to miss that clue if you weren't paying attention.
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Lance, in some places the ground transmitters are far enough apart that you might not hear both of them. While that's not usually true at the high altitudes (where NWA was), it's frequently true at the lower altitudes. I often hear center controller call a plane, then call them again on another transmitter (same freq) and ask if that's better or whether they can then be heard.

That's particularly true in some of the places I flew in W. Texas, NM and AZ. It occasionally happens in the mountains in the east.

Again, not usually an issue up high, but does happen down low.
 
roncachamp said:
If you don't believe him it's your responsibility to contact the FAA chief counsel. Cap'n Ron cannot be expected to provide verifiable documentation to support his assertions.
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Ron is 100% correct....

Most unions don't really represent anything except destruction of the employer....ALPA is no different.
 
SkyHog said:
Ron is 100% correct....

Most unions don't really represent anything except destruction of the employer....ALPA is no different.
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As an outsider you would see it that way, I suppose, but things would be a HELL of a lot worse as an industry and a profession without the union. ALPA is not in the same category as the Teamsters or the AFL-CIO IMO. And we are not out to destroy the companies we work for. Just trying to keep them from trampling all over us.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
As an outsider you would see it that way, I suppose, but things would be a HELL of a lot worse as an industry and a profession without the union. ALPA is not in the same category as the Teamsters or the AFL-CIO IMO. And we are not out to destroy the companies we work for. Just trying to keep them from trampling all over us.
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They succeeded with Braniff...
 
Doggtyred said:
They succeeded with Braniff...
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What does management arrogance and ineptitude have to do with ALPA?

They over-expanded, slashed fares and still couldn't fill the seats. Kind of hard to blame the crews for that, isn't it?


Trapper John
 
I'm generally not a labor sympathizer, but in the case of the airlines?

Airline history is full of just terrible management. Very similar to the auto industry in that regard. Seemingly no concern for the employees whatsoever. While ALPA may make missteps, in this case I have to say airline management virtually across the board is responsible for the sorry state of the industry and its labor relations. IMHO, that is.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
As an outsider you would see it that way, I suppose, but things would be a HELL of a lot worse as an industry and a profession without the union. ALPA is not in the same category as the Teamsters or the AFL-CIO IMO. And we are not out to destroy the companies we work for. Just trying to keep them from trampling all over us.
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Best evidence I've seen so far?

http://www.ntsb.gov/Dockets/Aviation/DCA09MA027/431209.pdf

Compare that to Colgan's submission.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Of why ALPA is a valuable asset.

EDIT:

And that they are not out to trample the company. Colgan did that by themselves with their submission.
 
Trapper John said:
What does management arrogance and ineptitude have to do with ALPA?

They over-expanded, slashed fares and still couldn't fill the seats. Kind of hard to blame the crews for that, isn't it?


Trapper John
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Well the crews should have been willing to take a 75% cut in pay to help build back the airline and assist the CEO of Braniff with being able to obtain his bonus for the year. I mean Geesh, where is their company loyalty?? :mad2::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
tdager said:
Well a union may finally end British Airways:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/BUSINESS/12/16/ba.strike.passengers.ruined/index.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/dec/14/british-airways-christmas-strike
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How so?

I do not see anything in either of those article that speaks of the demise of BA nor does either article blame one side or the other. In fact both articles do their best to avoid actually speaking of what the problems are that are leading to this labor action.
 
smigaldi said:
How so?

I do not see anything in either of those article that speaks of the demise of BA nor does either article blame one side or the other. In fact both articles do their best to avoid actually speaking of what the problems are that are leading to this labor action.
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The responsible thing to do would be to do the jobs they were hired to do (fly airplanes), and not intentionally bring the airline to its knees during the holiday period simply because "We're a Union!"

Strike busting should be legal. Fire 'em all and hire the new crowd of pilots in their places that are willing to do the job they're hired to do.
 
smigaldi said:
How so?

I do not see anything in either of those article that speaks of the demise of BA nor does either article blame one side or the other. In fact both articles do their best to avoid actually speaking of what the problems are that are leading to this labor action.
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Well, ya, but that CNN piece had some real insightful journalistic content!:

"I find the news of industrial action by way of holiday strike deplorable both on the part of the staff and the company," "doughie123" wrote from Newcastle, Australia.


Trapper John
 
smigaldi said:
How so?

I do not see anything in either of those article that speaks of the demise of BA nor does either article blame one side or the other. In fact both articles do their best to avoid actually speaking of what the problems are that are leading to this labor action.
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Really? Do you think that BA could withstand a 12 day strike over the Christmas holiday? I seriously doubt the already financial troubled company would survive that.
 
tdager said:
Really? Do you think that BA could withstand a 12 day strike over the Christmas holiday? I seriously doubt the already financial troubled company would survive that.
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Well if it that serious then maybe the company should capitulate to the union demands huh?

But neither of those article mention what the demands are so how do we decide if they are reasonable? Maybe, the company is doing somethign so egregious that strike is the right thing to do. If that is the case then is not the company itself to blame for going out of business? You seem to want to affix blame without knowing ANYTHING about the facts. I question that rush to judgment as a bigoted opinion against unions.
 
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smigaldi said:
Well if it that serious then maybe the company should capitulate to the union demands huh?
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Are you serious? So extortion is now legal if we call it "union demands"?

Have they looked around at the economy?
 
tdager said:
Are you serious? So extortion is now legal if we call it "union demands"?

Have they looked around at the economy?
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Again how do you know their demands are extortions? Have you seen the demands? Could they not be to get the company to fulfill their contract with employees?

You are rushing to judgment and conclusion without any facts.
 
Well back to the original topic. At my FAASTeam CFI workshop last night I asked the crowd (12, including 2 grey-haired working airline pilots with major airlines) two questions while we were BSing before the start:

What do you think of Congress requiring the ATP to serve as a pilot on part 121 flights, even as SIC? The answers were 8 to 4 against the idea, and 100% against Congress doing this kind of crap rather than the FAA.

Do you think the NWA pilots deserved their revocation? 10 of them (including both airline pilots) agreed that the revocation was warranted. Everyone thought the "story" smelled a bit (or a lot).
 
From Businessweek:

"British Airways (BAY.L) staff fighting planned cuts in cabin crew are to vote on strike action..."

"BA, which made its biggest ever annual loss of £401m in the year to April, has been negotiating with stewards for nine months over proposals to reduce its 14,000 cabin crew by 1,700 full-time posts."

"The announcement of strike action came just a few hours after BA released details of a near-doubling of its pension deficit to £3.7bn, up from £1.9bn. Analysts said the pensions black hole – one of the largest pension fund deficits in the private sector – was bigger than expected, although not so high that it would derail the group's planned merger with the Spanish carrier Iberia."

The company is hemorrhaging money and looking at merging with another airline to survive. I HAVE read about this and this is nothing more than people refusing to see the writing on the wall. There is no guarantee to a job, it belongs to the company not the employee. To SURVIVE they have to lay off less than 10% of its cabin crew....which is less than the percentage of layoffs at my wife's bank, where she survived but took a pay cut.



 
TMetzinger said:
Well back to the original topic. At my FAASTeam CFI workshop last night I asked the crowd (12, including 2 grey-haired working airline pilots with major airlines) two questions while we were BSing before the start:

What do you think of Congress requiring the ATP to serve as a pilot on part 121 flights, even as SIC? The answers were 8 to 4 against the idea, and 100% against Congress doing this kind of crap rather than the FAA.

Do you think the NWA pilots deserved their revocation? 10 of them (including both airline pilots) agreed that the revocation was warranted. Everyone thought the "story" smelled a bit (or a lot).
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Sorry Tim...you are right, I should have started a new thread. I apologize and will no longer pursue this thread creep here.
 
smigaldi said:
Again how do you know their demands are extortions? Have you seen the demands? Could they not be to get the company to fulfill their contract with employees?

You are rushing to judgment and conclusion without any facts.
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Apparently, BA has a really big hole (several billion) in their pension fund, and the employees are upset about that. Can't say that I blame them, seeing what some other air carriers have done to their employees, but you'd hope that striking over Christmas can be avoided. Sometimes a big bomb threat like that is what it takes to get those kind of issues worked out.


Trapper John
 
tdager said:
Sorry Tim...you are right, I should have started a new thread. I apologize and will no longer pursue this thread creep here.
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Oh, hey, I wasn't complaining! I was really responding to Greg and House's complaint that we hated airlines.

I mean, I DO hate most airlines, but that's because of their management and crappy service, NOT because of the pilots. But by all accounts (including what apparently is being represented as their own), these two professional pilots both dropped the airplane to pick up other things not directly related to the safe conduct of the flight.

I've seen work situations where unions made things better. And I've seen work situations where unions made things worse. In my opinion, though, unions often have to have a "devil" to battle against. And if they don't have one (or they already defeated him) they make one up. I was surprised that NATCA didn't blame FAA management for climate change.
 
wsuffa said:
Lance, in some places the ground transmitters are far enough apart that you might not hear both of them. While that's not usually true at the high altitudes (where NWA was), it's frequently true at the lower altitudes. I often hear center controller call a plane, then call them again on another transmitter (same freq) and ask if that's better or whether they can then be heard.

That's particularly true in some of the places I flew in W. Texas, NM and AZ. It occasionally happens in the mountains in the east.

Again, not usually an issue up high, but does happen down low.
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It happened to me today on Salt Lake Center 133.25. The controller was working the high altitude sector (we were at FL410) and also at least a couple of low altitude sectors on the same frequency. There was an airplane doing an approach at KJAC (Jackson Hole) and another one going into KGCC (Gillette, WY) which are across the state from each other. Whatever transmitter he was using for the airplane at KJAC was weak to me whereas the transmitter he was using for the airplane at KGCC was strong. I normally wouldn't pay so much attention except for this discussion.

They were also looking for another lost NWA on 121.5. Company offered to help locate them...
 
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