North up vs track up

You know, I kind of wish I had a vertical card compass and/or heading indicator that remained stationary with north up, and the needle moved to point to my course/heading... ;)
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
We already decided north up was the proper way...there was a “checkmate” that should have ended this, pretty sure that’s an Internet rule.


Tom
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Yeah, but there was a checkmate after that checkmate for track up. ;)
 
North up - even in paper chart days I didn't twist the paper chart to align the course "up". I think north up leaves me with better SA, especially in confined airspace areas, like the DC FRZ and SFRA.I "know" where I am in realation to the geography, without doing a mental adjustment . . .not sure it matters, though - probably just what felt right once upon a time, and then became habit.
 
denverpilot said:
Why? Do they teach the kids to turn their maps upside down when heading south these days? LOL.
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You don't understand, Nate. A "map" isn't a piece of paper anymore, it's an "app."... like a "map" with no "p" and an extra "p"... that tells you where you are, how to get where you're going, and all without any intellectual requirements of any kind on the user. Ain't ejumakashun grate?
 
MuseChaser said:
You don't understand, Nate. A "map" isn't a piece of paper anymore, it's an "app."... like a "map" with no "p" and an extra "p"... that tells you where you are, how to get where you're going, and all without any intellectual requirements of any kind on the user. Ain't ejumakashun grate?
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He said the kids were learning about maps. Not staring at software. Which is it? :)
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I wonder if this basically correlates with whether you learned about maps in 3rd or 4th grade before or after GPS?
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It doesn't for me. I learned north up on street maps. When I learned to fly, my primary instructor taught me to turn the sectional track up when I was heading southerly up so things like landmarks were right or left. When I started instrument training I decided I liked north up better for readability, especially approach plates. That carried over to my tablet and it stays north up. My navigator is track up.
 
I drive track up. And the ground moves for my YF whenever I kiss her.
 
Course up! :stirpot:

OK, just kidding.

North up when planning, North up on the panel in the Mooney, North up on all of the work planes, because we all have something called "situational awareness" that allows our brains to work correctly without being spoon-fed.

I will admit, I set the Weather page on my GTN to track up just in case the SHTF and I felt like I needed an immediate left/right depiction... But I have yet to use it. The weather is on the map page too, which is north up.

WannFly said:
it was already decided in the last thread that low wing is the right wing
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So your left wing is high wing? :dunno:

SoCal RV Flyer said:
Two displays, two orientations. Track North on my iFly which shows sectionals and TACs (and my magenta line!), and track up on the EFIS moving map...it shows a lot of towns, roads, etc. that don't show up clearly on the aeronautical charts.
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So your iFly is only aboard when you're going north? :dunno:

PeterNSteinmetz said:
I wonder if this basically correlates with whether you learned about maps in 3rd or 4th grade before or after GPS?
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I was wondering that myself.

X3 Skier said:
North up in the plane, track up in the car. Works for me.
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Justin M said:
Me too.

I wish I knew why.

Shrug.
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Me too, and I'll tell you why: Because Waze is the best navigation app, hands down, and doesn't really offer north up.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Me too, and I'll tell you why: Because Waze is the best navigation app, hands down, and doesn't really offer north up.
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Push the little thing that looks like a compass on the map.

You’re welcome. :)

76a8ef829bc2bb790e12cd4c27466ce9.jpg
 
denverpilot said:
Push the little thing that looks like a compass on the map.
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I don’t know what version or platform you’re running Waze on, but on my iPhone you now have to swipe right, with no visual indicator at all to access the panel which will show the little settings icon, which then allows a lock north up.

They use several kinds of swipes now with no visual indication of the need for it. Grrr...
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
I don’t know what version or platform you’re running Waze on, but on my iPhone you now have to swipe right, with no visual indicator at all to access the panel which will show the little settings icon, which then allows a lock north up.

They use several kinds of swipes now with no visual indication of the need for it. Grrr...
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Search, then the gear button for settings, top left.

To do north up all the time is on the main settings page.

434c8f5ad3ffa9b1386f6467e1cac952.jpg


To lock various things on to the map is at the bottom of the main settings page. They called it quick access.

d55ab68099a1b8dbe1faa18ef5164abd.jpg


Locking the compass on allows toggle from north up to track up by tapping the compass.

I think the other behavior you want is also in here.

fafdb7396d7554a46b3756903b7e0a17.jpg
 
FastEddieB said:
I doubt it - back in the day “Track Up” folks, myself included, used to turn sectionals to correspond to “Track Up” orientation regardless.
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My CFI forced me to to orient the sectional to be track-up. I always flipped it back to north-up whenever he wasn't looking.
 
asicer said:
My CFI forced me to to orient the sectional to be track-up. I always flipped it back to north-up whenever he wasn't looking.
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Me too, except I didn't wait until he wasn't looking. It's about the ONLY thing I ever argued with him about, and I told him to feel free to orient the sectional track-up again if I ever made a mistake because it was north-up. That never happened.
 
wsuffa said:
Yellow is better than magenta.
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Pink is the best color for course lines. Works best under NVGs, too.

You can get away with North up for large scale maps, but if you are navigating down in the treetops (and below), you'd better have that map lined up in the direction of flight. :frown3: :frown3:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Thanks, but... Mine doesn't have that. @PeterNSteinmetz's suggestion did the trick. Awesome!
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You just have to turn it on. I sent screenshots. LOL.

If it’s on AND the north up lock is on, it doesn’t do anything but if force north up isn’t on, it toggles between north and track, which I find more useful than forcing north up on.
 
denverpilot said:
You just have to turn it on. I sent screenshots. LOL.

If it’s on AND the north up lock is on, it doesn’t do anything but if force north up isn’t on, it toggles between north and track, which I find more useful than forcing north up on.
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Discussion arguing about north up and track up using navigators costing tens of thousands and apps we rely on for charts and other critical flight information with a sub-thread showing lack of knowledge of basic functions of a simple, free, car navigation app.

Laugh or cry?
 
denverpilot said:
They called it quick access
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Haha. So a setting that does not really say what it is - some unnamed thing is quick access - is on a second page accessed from a page that is accessed with an unindicated gesture. Really bad UI design. This is why I tend not to use Waze very often anymore.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Discussion arguing about north up and track up using navigators costing tens of thousands and apps we rely on for charts and other critical flight information with a sub-thread showing lack of knowledge of basic functions of a simple, free, car navigation app.

Laugh or cry?
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Software is all so *easy* and paper charts are outdated. LOL.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Haha. So a setting that does not really say what it is - some unnamed thing is quick access - is on a second page accessed from a page that is accessed with an unindicated gesture. Really bad UI design. This is why I tend not to use Waze very often anymore.
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This is more a sign of them deciding to change the UI and needing to keep the old UI features for us oldsters. New users won’t even know these things exist. They want it dumb for dumb people.

But I’m curious. What would you recommend? Google Maps is worse. Apple Maps? Laughable.

Pretty much anything else doesn’t have live traffic, so that’s the real value of any of them. I rarely need a map to go anywhere in real time.

Glance at a static Google Map if I’ve never been there and go. I don’t need the turn by turn, but I’ve been burnt multiple times not using a live map for traffic.

Waze is about all there is and it’s not awful UI wise in the live traffic world.
 
Ps... @PeterNSteinmetz ...

Keep in mind Google bought Waze quite some time ago, so making it stupid is now the goal because that’s always an unwritten goal in Google Apps.

Technically it’s a UI goal of both Google and Apple. They don’t make software for smart people. Yeah, I said it.
 
denverpilot said:
Pretty much anything else doesn’t have live traffic, so that’s the real value of any of them. I rarely need a map to go anywhere in real time.
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My BMW NAV System has a setting for live traffic info. No clue if it uses waze, google, Apple or a mind meld with all German cars in the known universe from HQ in Munich.

But it does have a tendency to act up once in a rare while by changing the setting to nighttime without warning when using track up, according to Dealer Service Department (a clearly impeccable authority). This proves North Up is the correct use of a NAV System. OTOH, as I stated previously, North Up in the Plane, Track Up in the car (with the traffic info off since I couldn’t care less about that).

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
My BMW NAV System has a setting for live traffic info. No clue if it uses waze, google, Apple or a mind meld with all German cars in the known universe from HQ in Munich.

But it does have a tendency to act up once in a rare while by changing the setting to nighttime without warning when using track up, according to Dealer Service Department (a clearly impeccable authority). This proves North Up is the correct use of a NAV System. OTOH, as I stated previously, North Up in the Plane, Track Up in the car (with the traffic info off since I couldn’t care less about that).

Cheers
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I should have been clearer. Only a few systems will re-route around traffic.

Most of the in-car systems use traffic sent by a company that puts low speed data on FM broadcast sub-carriers if they don’t have cellular data on board or a link to your phone’s data subscription. Some suck it off of a built in XM/Sirius receiver (even without a subscription) data stream. Depends on the manufacturer.
 
X3 Skier said:
My BMW NAV System has a setting for live traffic info. No clue if it uses waze, google, Apple or a mind meld with all German cars in the known universe from HQ in Munich.

But it does have a tendency to act up once in a rare while by changing the setting to nighttime without warning when using track up, according to Dealer Service Department (a clearly impeccable authority). This proves North Up is the correct use of a NAV System. OTOH, as I stated previously, North Up in the Plane, Track Up in the car (with the traffic info off since I couldn’t care less about that).

Cheers
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My favorite Waze story is about going to a concert. All of a sudden, Waze goes, "I have a better route. Turn left at [next intersection]. Turns out there was an accident and a tie-up a few miles up. With Waze we lost all of three minutes. Did that - routing us around a sudden traffic tie-up - many times. Crowd-sourced traffic is what makes it worth using. In addition to being smart enough to know the shortcuts.
 
midlifeflyer said:
My favorite Waze story is about going to a concert. All of a sudden, Waze goes, "I have a better route. Turn left at [next intersection]. Turns out there was an accident and a tie-up a few miles up. With Waze we lost all of three minutes. Did that - routing us around a sudden traffic tie-up - many times. Crowd-sourced traffic is what makes it worth using. In addition to being smart enough to know the shortcuts.
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I’ve had similar. Most of the time Waze does a great job.

There’s one “always” traffic jam here on I-70 EVERY rush hour where Waze always sees taking the frontage road for a mile jumping off and back on as one minute faster and it always recommends that. That’s a tad much for me and I just stay on the highway. And Waze is usually wrong in its trickiness depending on how drivers hit the traffic lights on the frontage road.

And then there’s these brilliant folk. Google Maps, not Waze, but hahaha...

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...s-of-colorado-drivers-in-a-mud-mess-on-sunday
 
denverpilot said:
I’ve had similar. Most of the time Waze does a great job.

There’s one “always” traffic jam here on I-70 EVERY rush hour where Waze always sees taking the frontage road for a mile jumping off and back on as one minute faster and it always recommends that. That’s a tad much for me and I just stay on the highway. And Waze is usually wrong in its trickiness depending on how drivers hit the traffic lights on the frontage road.

And then there’s these brilliant folk. Google Maps, not Waze, but hahaha...

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...s-of-colorado-drivers-in-a-mud-mess-on-sunday
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The catch is that Waze will offer a change with a very small time differential. At rush hour, things can happen so quickly that once you get there there can be a tie-up where it sends you. We still can't abdicate making decisions.
 
My Car NAV System recommends wether or not to take a detour and reroutes when it thinks it will save time. I basically ignore it since I gave up worrying about on time arrivals 22 years ago. I just leave early and if that’s not early enough, BFD:D

Cheers
 
denverpilot said:
But I’m curious. What would you recommend? Google Maps is worse. Apple Maps? Laughable.
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I guess I just don’t have much need for live traffic anymore (work mostly from home). I tend to look at Google Maps when I want a map.
 
I've found Waze works great in Portland... Get to the spot where there is 100% always a traffic jam... "Unexpected Traffic", no, it's here every single time I drive to this hellhole. I've learned to just add 2 hours to the initial estimate and I'm usually right. And that's why I don't take commercial flights out of PDX any more unless I have no choice.
 
midlifeflyer said:
My favorite Waze story is about going to a concert. All of a sudden, Waze goes, "I have a better route. Turn left at [next intersection]. Turns out there was an accident and a tie-up a few miles up. With Waze we lost all of three minutes. Did that - routing us around a sudden traffic tie-up - many times. Crowd-sourced traffic is what makes it worth using. In addition to being smart enough to know the shortcuts.
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Unless you live in a neighborhood that takes the brunt of Waze reroutes. Google give the middle finger to the neighborhood, while Wazers tend to give the middle finger to speed limits, stop signs, and no-passing zones (including stopped school buses). Waiting 5+ minutes to get out of your driveway because of the Wazers is not good. And if the municipality tries to stop cut-through so, they get sued.

Google and Waze are the antithesis of corporate social responsibility.
 
wsuffa said:
Unless you live in a neighborhood that takes the brunt of Waze reroutes. Google give the middle finger to the neighborhood, while Wazers tend to give the middle finger to speed limits, stop signs, and no-passing zones (including stopped school buses). Waiting 5+ minutes to get out of your driveway because of the Wazers is not good. And if the municipality tries to stop cut-through so, they get sued.

Google and Waze are the antithesis of corporate social responsibility.
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Must be something about large cities.
 
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