Non-WAAS 430?

A non-WASS Garmin 430 is far better than no GPS at all. It opens up a lot more airport options than you'd have available to you with a /A or /U airplane. I've been all over the US and parts of Canada in an Aztec with a non-WASS G430, an ADF, and a KX-155 and haven't run into needing WASS or LPV approaches to get the job done. Would WASS and the extra capability be nice? Sure, but it isn't happening in the short term.

To answer your questions:

1. To get LPV minimums you're going to need WASS. LNAV is what you'll get without it.
2. If you buy a 430W you can use the WASS GPS source in it for ADS-B compliance. Perhaps spend the money on the 430W now and wait on the ADS-B solution for a little bit. Depending on the ADS-B solution you choose I think you might end up spending the same amount and you'll have more capability.
3. The downside to the older equipment is limited support. All the G430s and 530s are in this boat, but especially the non-WASS versions. I don't think Garmin wants much to do with them already and I'd bet it won't be long until we see Jeppesen discontinuing database subscriptions for some of these old units. Then you'll have an expensive VFR navigation tool.
 
Thank you for the concise and clear answer!

I'm aware that LPV is out with non-WAAS. But can I fly to LNAV minimums on a chart that has the little WAAS in the upper left hand corner? KMTJ has an example of that. Same with KSUN (which if anyone still cares, is 4 miles in smoke as I type this).

Good point on the database updates - that was a thought that I hadn't considered.

Someone asked about Skybeacon. Was there a cheaper option I missed? All of the transponder-style solutions are probably $2500 or more and require install and some of those require an external source of WAAS which I don't have which balloons the cost even more because then I have to add something for WAAS, too.
 
Pretty much covered all the basics. Personally, one of the things I don't like about some avionics manufacturers is their dropping support for older units. For this reason alone, I would go with a 430W over a 430. Garmin may be supporting a 430 today but they could stop tomorrow and then you'd be stuck. They've done it before, "so sorry so sad, now buy our new box."
 
There are approaches that are LPV-only, with no LNAV minimums. One example is my home airport. Runway 30 has LNAV, LPV, and circling minimums but runway 12 only has LPV. If you have a non-WAAS approach GPS, you can't fly an approach to runway 12 at all so you'll end up circling from the RNAV 30 approach to land on 12. And there is a long-standing NOTAM that says circling to 12 from the RNAV 30 approach is not authorized at night. So if you are non-WAAS and flying in night IMC, you have to hope that the winds favor 30 or divert to an alternate. How often do I fly into my home airport in night IMC when the winds favor runway 12? It hasn't happened yet. Look at your actual, probable needs when you decide whether WAAS is worth it for you or not.
 
chemgeek said:
FWIW, the price differential between a used refurb GNS430 and a GNS430W js about $2k, but it will cost $4k to convert a 430 to a 430W...
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Actually the actual price spread is much closer to the upgrade cost. There are non-WAAS 430's that are over priced on eBay and notice that they never sell. Most Av shops discount the upgrade cost by ~$400. I went through his last year before the list price increase from $3300 to $4300. My ave shop discounted $400.

The returned unit is significantly improved. It is indistingulshable from new. It also has a faster processor installed, gains terrain & obstacle maps and warnings, and ADS-B weather & traffic display if you have an ADS-B transponder. The overhaul also includes the latest VFR/IFR/Terrain/Obstacle data valued at ~$500. Also a 1 year factory warranty and factory 8130 form.
 
FlyingPennyPincher said:
I'm aware that LPV is out with non-WAAS. But can I fly to LNAV minimums on a chart that has the little WAAS in the upper left hand corner? KMTJ has an example of that. Same with KSUN (which if anyone still cares, is 4 miles in smoke as I type this).
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Of course you can fly LNAV approaches without WAAS. Without vertical guidance, you cannot fly LPV or LNAV/VNAV approaches or utilize vertical advisory guidance on LNAV+V approaches. The little WAAS box in the corner of the NOS plate provides info about the WAAS channel used for the WAAS-enabled approaches.
 
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Where's the king of POA to tell us how smoke is never that bad?
 

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denverpilot said:
This may sound contrite, but I think it’s accurate.

At this point in avionics history if you don’t need WAAS you probably don’t need a GPS.

Why? A non-certified GPS in a tablet will do just fine for VFR. That and a chart and looking out the window.

You are going to need WAAS for IFR, if not just for the approaches, you’ll need a WAAS location source for ADS-B Out. Etc.

Buying non-WAAS for IFR at this point is just throwing money away. IMHO. YMMV.
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I disagree, my home airport only buys you about a 100 extra feet of altitude with WAAS. A non-WAAS GPS is perfectly good for light IFR. I fly IFR and my plane is still a /A. Now a days you are getting more limited on ground base approach airports but that’s the main reason I’m installing a Garmin 400. Might spend a grand to install the unit but that’ll make my Comanche a /G for under $3k total. That’s worth it to me. ADSB can also be solved by adding Skybeacon for $1800. How much would ADSB and WAAS cost? $10-$15k for used equipment? $15-$20k for new stuff?
 
As I understand it, if you have a panel with alternate nav equipment such as VOR and DME adequate for the approach, then you can fly the approach with the 430 using the other means for backup. This means, however, that the ground equipment necessary for the backup must be operational.

After all that, from the OP’s post, there is not ILSor even Nikon precision approach equipment in his area, so the non WAAS would not be very useful.

There is a good description of non WAAS requirements in somewhere in the series below:

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/pdf/loadingFLIGHTplans2.pdf
 
MBDiagMan said:
As I understand it, if you have a panel with alternate nav equipment such as VOR and DME adequate for the approach, then you can fly the approach with the 430 using the other means for backup. This means, however, that the ground equipment necessary for the backup must be operational.

After all that, from the OP’s post, there is not ILSor even Nikon precision approach equipment in his area, so the non WAAS would not be very useful.

There is a good description of non WAAS requirements in somewhere in the series below:

http://www.themooneyflyer.com/pdf/loadingFLIGHTplans2.pdf
Click to expand...

Wait... what? Either you're precisely incorrect, or I need to go back to the drawing board, or I've misunderstood your post.

My understanding is that a non-WAAS GPS (or WAAS GPS) doesn't require ground-based backup to fly an RNAV approach. Along these lines, what WAAS does get you, however, is the ability to fly non-RNAV approaches with the GPS being the sole navigational equipment (i.e. without backup of the other instruments). Like, for instance, you could use your WAAS GPS to fly a VOR approach without actually having a VOR receiver in your airplane. You can't do this with a non-WAAS GPS.

This is a nice capability but doesn't really change the reality for me. Most of the airports I fly in and out of have ONLY one approach and it's RNAV, which you can fly with WAAS or non-WAAS to LNAV mins; all the ground-based approaches have been removed.
 
I am admittedly a neophyte on this subject. That is why I began my post with “As I understand it...”

The last sentence of your first paragraph is related to what I am thinking. If you have WAAS you don’t need the VOR, you can fly the overlay. If you have non WAAS you must have the equipment necessary to use the ground based equipment, but you can fly the overlay?

The series of lessons related to the one I linked covers this, but I have only read the portion related to non WAAS one time since my 430 IS WAAS.
 
There's more to the WAAS 430 than just lower approach altitudes. You also get terrain & obstacle avoidance and ADS-B position source, and ability to display ADS-B In data traffic and weather.

Yes, the FIS-B weather & traffic can be displayed on an iPad. However I have greatly benefited by also seeing this information on a panel powered certified device.
 
FlyingPennyPincher said:
Where's the king of POA to tell us how smoke is never that bad?
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KOLM was reporting 2 miles in smoke this morning. Looking out the window from home over Budd Inlet (about 5 miles N of KOLM) I don't think it is much better. Note that I am not flying today. I didn't get the IR to fly in smoke.

Back to your original reason for posting - as noted by others (several times) the non-WAAS 430 is no longer supported by Garmin and will add nothing to the resale value of your airplane. If you want to install it, go for it. Personally, I would put in a 430W or newer if it were my airplane. It's nice to get some value back when you sell. However, your money, your choice.

Also, I don't recall DenverPilot being named King of POA. Not sure where you came up with that.
 
A thought for everyone on the monetary side who's in the "you're throwing your money away" boat:

Let's say a Non-WAAS GPS can be installed for $3,000 and you get 0% at resale.
Let's say a WAAS GPS can be installed for $9,000, but you get 50% value back at resale.

In the Non-WAAS example you're net negative $3,000.
In the WAAS example you're net negative $4,500.

So, as long as a non-WAAS GPS can be installed for less than half the price of a WAAS GPS, you're money ahead (the addition capability of WAAS notwithstanding).

If you throw the ADS-B question into the mix, I think the cheapest thing to do is Skybeacon whether or not you have WAAS, so that's a wash, too.

Food for thought.
 
FlyingPennyPincher said:
A thought for everyone on the monetary side who's in the "you're throwing your money away" boat:

Let's say a Non-WAAS GPS can be installed for $3,000 and you get 0% at resale.
Let's say a WAAS GPS can be installed for $9,000, but you get 50% value back at resale.

In the Non-WAAS example you're net negative $3,000.
In the WAAS example you're net negative $4,500.

So, as long as a non-WAAS GPS can be installed for less than half the price of a WAAS GPS, you're money ahead (the addition capability of WAAS notwithstanding).

If you throw the ADS-B question into the mix, I think the cheapest thing to do is Skybeacon whether or not you have WAAS, so that's a wash, too.

Food for thought.
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You are also getting the benefits of WAAS for $1500. I expect your going to keep your plane a while or you wouldn’t consider upgrading the GPS. After flying with portable ADSB-in for a year, I have convinced myself it is worth having on the panel. Not everyone in our group flys with a tablet and I think it is important enough to have in the panel. We have the non-WAAS 430 in our Skyhawk. It has a lot of utility but we are going to replace it. Our cost to upgrade it and our Non-ES 330 transponder including the antenna / cable and certification is around 6K from two different quotes. It is a lot of money to put in a 17 year old GPS. If you think it is worth it to you - go for it. You don’t need our approval. Just make sure you understand the options.
 
My broker friend who buys and sells 1-2 planes a week, said the lack of a decent panel GPS harms A/C resale prices. Ex: no 430 and a pair of king KX155's takes money off the top ($5K for a warrior, $10K for a good 182), 430 + KX155 is expected as table stakes, 430W + KX155 is a slight up lift maybe $3K, GNS650 is $7K uplift, and GNS750 more like $12K uplift in an IFR cruiser like 182.

I sure everyone has hardened opinions about the resale impact of panel mounted GPS's, just one guys view that trades 50+ planes a year.

He was also saying people buying A/C with a great GTN430W's are not readily ripping them out for GTN650/750's.

People are upgrading radio/VOR only planes or planes with older GPS's soon after acquisition.

Pricing uplifts/down grades are driven in part by how fast the new owner feels the need to yank the old stuff out and upgrade.
 
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FlyingPennyPincher said:
A thought for everyone on the monetary side who's in the "you're throwing your money away" boat:

Let's say a Non-WAAS GPS can be installed for $3,000 and you get 0% at resale.
Let's say a WAAS GPS can be installed for $9,000, but you get 50% value back at resale.

In the Non-WAAS example you're net negative $3,000.
In the WAAS example you're net negative $4,500.

So, as long as a non-WAAS GPS can be installed for less than half the price of a WAAS GPS, you're money ahead (the addition capability of WAAS notwithstanding).

If you throw the ADS-B question into the mix, I think the cheapest thing to do is Skybeacon whether or not you have WAAS, so that's a wash, too.

Food for thought.
Click to expand...

If the sole purpose of flying an airplane were to save money, this would make sense. You could save even more money by not installing a panel GPS at all. If one values utility and safety, the calculation might be different. For my flight needs, a non WAAS GPS is of little value, no matter how much money I would save.
 
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