Non-WAAS 430?

[FlyingPennyPincher]

Hey everyone...

For someone who owns a plane, I'm finding that I'm an incredible penny-pincher when it comes to upgrades. Wanted to get your thoughts on putting in a non-WAAS 430.

I have a basic old round-dial 206 IFR certified but with no IFR GPS (and no ADS-B out - I'll come back to this). I fly in the mountain west and virtually all of our non-commercial airports have eliminated anything but GPS approaches. I have wanted to put in an IFR-approved GPS for years, but the cost just kills me. I won't do much IFR flying anyway: any non-summer IFR is virtually guaranteed to be in icing conditions due to the altitudes, so that's a no-go. The only time I really want to use it is in the summer in smoke conditions when the real issue is visibility *not* ceiling so much.

I've noticed that used non-WAAS 430s are way cheaper than WAAS 430s. Almost to the point that I'd be willing to install one! I've looked at all the airports I'd fly into and the LNAV/VNAV minimums are plenty fine for the type of IFR flying I'd do. Furthermore, I haven't found one yet that *doesn't* have an LNAV approach, or a place where there's only an LPV approach. Provided that I'm not really trying to get under a layer - i.e. to get the lowest approach minimums possible - is it a dumb idea to just go non-WAAS and save the money? Here are a couple specific questions:

1. Can you fly *any* LNAV approach? Really what I'm getting at here is that I notice some approach plates (typically those that have an LPV approach) have a little "WAAS" in the upper left. Does this mean you have to have WAAS to fly even to the LNAV minimums? Or could you fly to the LNAV but not LPV minimums in this scenario?

2. Given that I also don't have ADS-B... I have planned on going the cheap route (surprise, surprise) by putting in the Uavionix Skybeacon when it is certified - kind of betting that my plane will be included in the AML. Anyway, since I don't have WAAS currently, but *might* if y'all convince me my current idea is a bad one, is there a more cost-effective way to do this that I'm not seeing that would kill two birds with one stone?

3. Are there general downsides to the older equipment? Any gotchas in buying non-WAAS 430s used? I understand non-WAAS 430s are not produced but are still supported, is that correct? Can they be upgraded later if I wanted to go that route? What does that cost?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance...

 

[gsengle]

My understanding is they are not really supported as parts are no longer available....


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[NordicDave]

The 430W also has terrain & obstacle alerts and can display ADS-B content like weather and traffic from an ADS-B transponder.

Personally... 172 and definitely 182's should have WAAS in my opinion, it's what people expect. That said a plain 430 works well in a $20K airframe like a piper Warrior or older 172L or older model.

 

[swingwing]

I believe if you send them in for repair Garmin make you upgrade it to a 430W. $$$$$

 

[AggieMike88]

Wanted to get your thoughts on putting in a non-WAAS 430

I wouldn't....

The gain in features from the GTN's and the IFD's are well worth the extra dollars. Especially going forward for the next 5,10,15 years.

And the IFD-440 is a slide-in replacement for the 430. Minimizing installation costs. I think several here have accomplished that, including @SCCutler

 

[gsengle]

I believe if you send them in for repair Garmin make you upgrade it to a 430W. $$$$$

I believe they are also running out of parts if they haven’t yet for the upgrades...


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[catmandu]

I went even further off the reservation (crap, can I say that anymore?), removing the nav and com and installed a non-WAAS GPS-400. Same reasons you have, LNAV approaches suit my IFR flying just fine. $1600, self installed under supervision, if it fails could probably get $500 for it as a parts only box. Good risk / reward for me.

 

[NordicDave]

The GNS-430 to 430W overhaul is $4395 list and most Garmin dealers discount about $400. You do get a brand new looking and operating 430W. Sharp crisp controls, feels like new.

 

[NordicDave]

I wouldn't....

The gain in features from the GTN's and the IFD's are well worth the extra dollars. Especially going forward for the next 5,10,15 years.

And the IFD-440 is a slide-in replacement for the 430. Minimizing installation costs. I think several here have accomplished that, including @SCCutler

The IFD-440 isn't so "slide in", but a lot less then a fresh install. Avidyne has a factory sale right now offering a $500 credit for installation. That should cover a new antenna and coax with installation.

 

[chemgeek]

It really depends on now much utility you want. LNAV approaches have much higher minimums than LPV. Will that work for you? And others have already mentioned the 430s without WAAS may be less well supported moving forward.

Install costs are the same WAAS or not. Depending on the aircraft and installation location you may also need a separate CDI and/or annunciator. WAAS also alleviates RAIM checks.

You will never regret putting in WAAS, but you might if you don't. Seems to be a frequent topic of discussion.

 

[GRG55]

I believe they are also running out of parts if they haven’t yet for the upgrades...


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Garmin's service policy on the 430 is a bit confusing. Officially they say they can't repair a 28 volt only 430 unless it is upgraded to WAAS (that is on the Garmin website).
The 14/28 volt models don't appear to require the WAAS upgrade to be serviced, but both Garmin shops on my field have told me Garmin unofficially won't fix a 430 of any type without the WAAS upgrade. So who knows.

Those techs are also telling me the 430 part Garmin is likely to run out of first is the screens. It had a large inventory of them, but they have not been manufactured for some years now.

 

[GRG55]

I thought we had been through something similar before:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/garmin-430-repair.105765/

 

[denverpilot]

This may sound contrite, but I think it’s accurate.

At this point in avionics history if you don’t need WAAS you probably don’t need a GPS.

Why? A non-certified GPS in a tablet will do just fine for VFR. That and a chart and looking out the window.

You are going to need WAAS for IFR, if not just for the approaches, you’ll need a WAAS location source for ADS-B Out. Etc.

Buying non-WAAS for IFR at this point is just throwing money away. IMHO. YMMV.

 

[BrianNC]

This may sound contrite, but I think it’s accurate.

At this point in avionics history if you don’t need WAAS you probably don’t need a GPS.

Why? A non-certified GPS in a tablet will do just fine for VFR. That and a chart and looking out the window.

You are going to need WAAS for IFR, if not just for the approaches, you’ll need a WAAS location source for ADS-B Out. Etc.

Buying non-WAAS for IFR at this point is just throwing money away. IMHO. YMMV.

So what are the limitations of non-WAAS? Basically higher minimums? Our club plane 430 isn't WAAS.

 

[denverpilot]

So what are the limitations of non-WAAS? Basically higher minimums? Our club plane 430 isn't WAAS.

Really depends on what approaches you have available to you at airports you want to go to. Certainly no LPV.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Really depends on what approaches you have available to you at airports you want to go to. Certainly no LPV.

IIRC, LNAV/VNAV and advisory VNAV are WAAS box-only functions in the Garmin world.

 

[Ravioli]

The club I was in upgraded two to WAAS last year. Came back perfect. ~$4k each.

If you do put in a non-waas 430, use the correct coax for the WAAS version AND the correct antennae for the WAAS version. My understanding is they are reverse compatible (Double check with someone smart) Then... if/when the 430 needs service you can upgrade with minimal excess parts and labor.

[EDIT] And wouldn't you know, as soon as I finished this post I found this interesting thread about my suggestion

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/are-gps-antennas-backward-compatible.112647/

 

[FlyingPennyPincher]

This may sound contrite, but I think it’s accurate.

At this point in avionics history if you don’t need WAAS you probably don’t need a GPS.

Why? A non-certified GPS in a tablet will do just fine for VFR. That and a chart and looking out the window.

You are going to need WAAS for IFR, if not just for the approaches, you’ll need a WAAS location source for ADS-B Out. Etc.

Buying non-WAAS for IFR at this point is just throwing money away. IMHO. YMMV.

I don't understand this thinking at all - there's still a ton of utility in non-WAAS *as far as I can tell* and I'm waiting for someone to give a concrete reason why that's not true. I know the conventional wisdom is WAAS - that's why I asked the question - but other than the unsupported issue, as far as I can tell there's still a ton of value in non-WAAS instrumentation. Like I said, I just want to be able to fly into tertiary airports that have lost all their ground-based approaches during times of low visibility (not really low ceiling). I'm not going to be out farting around in 250' ceilings in a piston aircraft in the mountains in the winter, so its not clear to me that LPV vs. LNAV really makes that much of a difference.

This perhaps changes somewhat if you can't fly an LNAV approach that has a "WAAS" identifier in the chart, although I haven't found that many examples of this. For instance, look at Montrose's (KMTJ) RNAV (GPS) Y RNWY 17. It lists an LPV but also LNAV minimums but there is that WAAS icon in the top left of the chart. Can you fly this to LNAV minimums with a non-WAAS GPS?

 

[denverpilot]

I don't understand this thinking at all - there's still a ton of utility in non-WAAS *as far as I can tell* and I'm waiting for someone to give a concrete reason why that's not true. I know the conventional wisdom is WAAS - that's why I asked the question - but other than the unsupported issue, as far as I can tell there's still a ton of value in non-WAAS instrumentation. Like I said, I just want to be able to fly into tertiary airports that have lost all their ground-based approaches during times of low visibility (not really low ceiling). I'm not going to be out farting around in 250' ceilings in a piston aircraft in the mountains in the winter, so its not clear to me that LPV vs. LNAV really makes that much of a difference.

I was out shooting approaches on an 800’-1000’ solid overcast day here with rain, just a few weeks ago. One of them ended up being to within 50’ of ILS minimums due to a lowering and a rain shower on final.

Cloud bases don’t always cooperate with the plan or the forecast.

If I’m IMC, I want the option to go as low as the available approaches do and as many ways as possible.

That particular approach was an ILS, but if the two ILS receivers aboard had both barfed (unlikely, I know) or I was going to an airport without an ILS, I would have still gotten in with the GTN 650 and an appropriate RNAV approach.

Put a non-WAAS 430 in the panel and now I have to make more decisions about where to go. While in-flight, hand-flown, single-pilot and busy.

 

[FlyingPennyPincher]

I was out shooting approaches on an 800’-1000’ solid overcast day here with rain, just a few weeks ago. One of them ended up being to within 50’ of ILS minimums due to a lowering and a rain shower on final.

Cloud bases don’t always cooperate with the plan or the forecast.

If I’m IMC, I want the option to go as low as the available approaches do and as many ways as possible.

That particular approach was an ILS, but if the two ILS receivers aboard had both barfed (unlikely, I know) or I was going to an airport without an ILS, I would have still gotten in with the GTN 650 and an appropriate RNAV approach.

Put a non-WAAS 430 in the panel and now I have to make more decisions about where to go. While in-flight, hand-flown, single-pilot and busy.

Okay, got it. It worked for you once, therefore I should do it too. I guess you haven't read my posts about smoke and visibility being my primary concern.

 

[denverpilot]

Okay, got it. It worked for you once, therefore I should do it too. I guess you haven't read my posts about smoke and visibility being my primary concern.

I read them. I can’t think of a time when a tablet GPS isn’t enough to deal with VFR smoke.

If visibility is low enough you can’t navigate via landmarks, it’s not VMC anymore.

 

[FlyingPennyPincher]

I read them. I can’t think of a time when a tablet GPS isn’t enough to deal with VFR smoke.

If visibility is low enough you can’t navigate via landmarks, it’s not VMC anymore.

Grrrrrr.... Yes, my point exactly. Believe it or not, we go IFR in smoke reasonably often and really margin VFR where I'd rather be IFR in smoke all the time.

 

[denverpilot]

Grrrrrr.... Yes, my point exactly. Believe it or not, we go IFR in smoke reasonably often and really margin VFR where I'd rather be IFR in smoke all the time.

Okay. You know your mission for your instrument ticket and your airplane better than I do, then.

My comments are based upon using the Instrument ticket to fly in weather, not smoke, which is most people’s goal for it.

Resale value of a non-WAAS unit in an aircraft will be based upon that, not smoke flying. In other words, you’ll get about $0 back for whatever is spent on it.

Typical return on avionics is about 50%.

 

[denverpilot]

P.S. Until VORs truly get decommissioned I can’t see a scenario where one couldn’t navigate smoke with nothing more than a VOR receiver and a map.

 

[Fearless Tower]

P.S. Until VORs truly get decommissioned I can’t see a scenario where one couldn’t navigate smoke with nothing more than a VOR receiver and a map.

They don’t have to be official ‘decommissioned’ to be worthless. Maybe it’s different out where you live, but you’d be surprised how many VORs out here seem to go ‘out of service’ for extended periods of time....

 

[FlyingPennyPincher]

P.S. Until VORs truly get decommissioned I can’t see a scenario where one couldn’t navigate smoke with nothing more than a VOR receiver and a map.

Dude... do you even read these posts or are you just trolling?

Like I said from the beginning: there are no ground based approaches to the places I generally fly. And its not that I can't just seem to find my way around and need some help navigating with a VOR and a tablet. It's IFR flying by definition or super ****ty VFR flying where it's smarter to be in the system.

 

[Ravioli]

Okay, got it. It worked for you once, therefore I should do it too. I guess you haven't read my posts about smoke and visibility being my primary concern.

Dude... do you even read these posts or are you just trolling?

I love it! Like a reverse troll. OP's 4th and 5th posts are smack downs for lowly little @denverpilot (48000+)

 

[denverpilot]

Dude... do you even read these posts or are you just trolling?

Like I said from the beginning: there are no ground based approaches to the places I generally fly. And its not that I can't just seem to find my way around and need some help navigating with a VOR and a tablet. It's IFR flying by definition or super ****ty VFR flying where it's smarter to be in the system.

Flying with a VOR and a tablet for SA is “in the system”. I know of nowhere in CONUS that has so much smoke you need Instrument approaches to get out of it on a regular basis.

I’m just telling you how to get it done without spending thousands on a worthless resale unit and lots of labor costs. You’re the one who has a name of Penny Pincher and asked for public advice.

If you want to waste money on something worthless, why ask? Just spend the money and don’t bother asking.

Where are you flying that this smoke is constantly so bad you need a panel GPS for approaches?

How about a couple of airport IDs so we can all look at the conditions there and see if the entire question is just made up crap? There’s no particular need for secrecy on where you’re flying.

My BS meter for this story is well above the halfway mark. The claim that a response you ASKED for is a “troll” pegged the BS meter.

You can buy out of date avionics that nobody will want when you resell the aircraft all you like. Go for it. Is that what you wanted to hear? Duh.

Spend $5000 and add labor to install it. Nobody’s stopping you. It’ll get you the equivalent of VOR approaches.

 

[denverpilot]

I love it! Like a reverse troll. OP's 4th and 5th posts are smack downs for lowly little @denverpilot (48000+)

Smack downs? I don’t give a crap if he wastes his money after asking for a public opinion.

He didn’t want the answer to the question anyway. He’s installing worthless junk the next owner won’t need (VFR) or will rip out and replace (IFR).

That’s where a non-WAAS GPS sits in the market today. Just fact.

I suspect he won’t be sharing any details about where magical smoke land is. LOL.

 

[steingar]

I put a KLN94 in my panel. Yeah, I'd love a WAAS box, but the price tag was well north of what I could spend. If the wx is that bad, I won't go. if it turns out that bad I'll find an ILS. Lots hereabouts. One in every big city in the East. You westerners can have your rocks, I'll take the ILS. Indeed that's something I'm going to think about for my alternates, they should have working ILS approaches.

 

[denverpilot]

I put a KLN94 in my panel. Yeah, I'd love a WAAS box, but the price tag was well north of what I could spend. If the wx is that bad, I won't go. if it turns out that bad I'll find an ILS. Lots hereabouts. One in every big city in the East. You westerners can have your rocks, I'll take the ILS. Indeed that's something I'm going to think about for my alternates, they should have working ILS approaches.

The mysterious “Penny Pincher” flying in magical smoke land says there’s no ground based approaches there either. LOL.

But yes, a non-WAAS GPS has a purpose in your scenario where ILS and VORs still exist.

It’s called “GPS Direct” instead of having to say “Unable direct but we can accept a vector for the next 500 miles.”

 

[steingar]

More than that. If its not that bad you can do GPS approaches. We get lots of wx where the clouds are 1000 feet off the ground, sunny on top. Why wouldn't I want to go through the layer and get on top?

 

[denverpilot]

More than that. If its not that bad you can do GPS approaches. We get lots of wx where the clouds are 1000 feet off the ground, sunny on top. Why wouldn't I want to go through the layer and get on top?

Yup. But Penny can’t. He’s in magical smoke land where the VFR is so cruddy he wants to be in the system in cruise.

You have to read his (likely BS) story, like he says! LOL.

 

[FlyingPennyPincher]

Denverpilot, you're being a dick, you're not answering the question, and you're wrong.

Pop open foreflight and click visibility. There are a lot of airports that are IFR or marginal VFR RIGHT NOW in smoke, and if you look into them, most of them don't have ground-based navigation but they do have LNAV at least. I know you're the king of POA and all, but god your posts just make me miserable.

 

[Brad Z]

OK, since no one else mentioned it, WAAS increases your options for legal alternates. With WAAS, you can file to a RNAV GPS only airport as a legal alternate. Depending on your range, that can make a big difference.

Also, no need to check RAIM.

 

[denverpilot]

Denverpilot, you're being a dick, you're not answering the question, and you're wrong.

Pop open foreflight and click visibility. There are a lot of airports that are IFR or marginal VFR RIGHT NOW in smoke, and if you look into them, most of them don't have ground-based navigation but they do have LNAV at least. I know you're the king of POA and all, but god your posts just make me miserable.

Awwww. Where’s my tiny violin for you asking in public if you should waste money and not liking the answer? You’re “miserable”. Shucks. Poor guy.

Make a decision and go write that check. I certainly don’t care.

You asked on a discussion board, I answered. You don’t like the answer, so what?

Personal insults tell me your maturity level, and you confirmed by not answering the question about which airport you fly out of, that you aren’t flying anything anywhere where there’s a need for Instrument approaches in IMC caused by smoke.

What’s the airport ID there, Smokey Bear? You have now earned your new callsign. Maybe you could get a job dropping smoke jumpers if it’s that bad there.

 

[JCranford]

I've noticed that used non-WAAS 430s are way cheaper than WAAS 430s.

There’s a reason for that...

 

[chemgeek]

FWIW, the price differential between a used refurb GNS430 and a GNS430W js about $2k, but it will cost $4k to convert a 430 to a 430W, if possible at all. When you add the purchase cost to the installation cost (parts + labor), a compatible and compliant CDI, and a possible annunciator light, the $2k you save starts to look rather foolish. One could possibly spend $8-10k depending on what is required. It's a lot of money to spend for limited utility and no resale capture.

For perspective, it cost me $10k about 8 years ago to get a NEW 430W and a used but almost new GI106 CDI, plus installation. If you spend a bunch of money you might as well go big on utility. There are a lot of places in unfriendly terrain, like my home field, where LNAV is barely better than VFR, and the only IFR usable approaches require WAAS. That is, our LPV is 250-1 and the LNAV is 900-1 1/4.

Lots of owners have grappled with this decision, and you've heard some experienced opinions here who have been through it. It's your money. Spend wisely.

 

[FlyingPennyPincher]

:claims personal insults tells maturity level:

:makes personal insult:

 

[Clip4]

Hey everyone...

For someone who owns a plane, I'm finding that I'm an incredible penny-pincher when it comes to upgrades. Wanted to get your thoughts on putting in a non-WAAS 430.

I have a basic old round-dial 206 IFR certified but with no IFR GPS (and no ADS-B out - I'll come back to this). I fly in the mountain west and virtually all of our non-commercial airports have eliminated anything but GPS approaches. I have wanted to put in an IFR-approved GPS for years, but the cost just kills me. I won't do much IFR flying anyway: any non-summer IFR is virtually guaranteed to be in icing conditions due to the altitudes, so that's a no-go. The only time I really want to use it is in the summer in smoke conditions when the real issue is visibility *not* ceiling so much.

I've noticed that used non-WAAS 430s are way cheaper than WAAS 430s. Almost to the point that I'd be willing to install one! I've looked at all the airports I'd fly into and the LNAV/VNAV minimums are plenty fine for the type of IFR flying I'd do. Furthermore, I haven't found one yet that *doesn't* have an LNAV approach, or a place where there's only an LPV approach. Provided that I'm not really trying to get under a layer - i.e. to get the lowest approach minimums possible - is it a dumb idea to just go non-WAAS and save the money? Here are a couple specific questions:

1. Can you fly *any* LNAV approach? Really what I'm getting at here is that I notice some approach plates (typically those that have an LPV approach) have a little "WAAS" in the upper left. Does this mean you have to have WAAS to fly even to the LNAV minimums? Or could you fly to the LNAV but not LPV minimums in this scenario?

2. Given that I also don't have ADS-B... I have planned on going the cheap route (surprise, surprise) by putting in the Uavionix Skybeacon when it is certified - kind of betting that my plane will be included in the AML. Anyway, since I don't have WAAS currently, but *might* if y'all convince me my current idea is a bad one, is there a more cost-effective way to do this that I'm not seeing that would kill two birds with one stone?

3. Are there general downsides to the older equipment? Any gotchas in buying non-WAAS 430s used? I understand non-WAAS 430s are not produced but are still supported, is that correct? Can they be upgraded later if I wanted to go that route? What does that cost?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance...

Hey everyone...

For someone who owns a plane, I'm finding that I'm an incredible penny-pincher when it comes to upgrades. Wanted to get your thoughts on putting in a non-WAAS 430.

I have a basic old round-dial 206 IFR certified but with no IFR GPS (and no ADS-B out - I'll come back to this). I fly in the mountain west and virtually all of our non-commercial airports have eliminated anything but GPS approaches. I have wanted to put in an IFR-approved GPS for years, but the cost just kills me. I won't do much IFR flying anyway: any non-summer IFR is virtually guaranteed to be in icing conditions due to the altitudes, so that's a no-go. The only time I really want to use it is in the summer in smoke conditions when the real issue is visibility *not* ceiling so much.

I've noticed that used non-WAAS 430s are way cheaper than WAAS 430s. Almost to the point that I'd be willing to install one! I've looked at all the airports I'd fly into and the LNAV/VNAV minimums are plenty fine for the type of IFR flying I'd do. Furthermore, I haven't found one yet that *doesn't* have an LNAV approach, or a place where there's only an LPV approach. Provided that I'm not really trying to get under a layer - i.e. to get the lowest approach minimums possible - is it a dumb idea to just go non-WAAS and save the money? Here are a couple specific questions:

1. Can you fly *any* LNAV approach? Really what I'm getting at here is that I notice some approach plates (typically those that have an LPV approach) have a little "WAAS" in the upper left. Does this mean you have to have WAAS to fly even to the LNAV minimums? Or could you fly to the LNAV but not LPV minimums in this scenario?

2. Given that I also don't have ADS-B... I have planned on going the cheap route (surprise, surprise) by putting in the Uavionix Skybeacon when it is certified - kind of betting that my plane will be included in the AML. Anyway, since I don't have WAAS currently, but *might* if y'all convince me my current idea is a bad one, is there a more cost-effective way to do this that I'm not seeing that would kill two birds with one stone?

3. Are there general downsides to the older equipment? Any gotchas in buying non-WAAS 430s used? I understand non-WAAS 430s are not produced but are still supported, is that correct? Can they be upgraded later if I wanted to go that route? What does that cost?

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance...

1. No LPV with non-WAAS units.
2. Skybeacon $1850, you are kidding right?
3. Non-WAAS no longer supported by Garmin.