Alexb2000
En-Route
Goes to the earlier conversation, ATC doesn't assign the ODP in the clearance, so under part 91 you can do whatever you like until you are under positive control and thus come close to other aircraft, right?
Non-towered airport departure, when to turn on course?
- Thread starter OverTQ
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Goes to the earlier conversation, ATC doesn't assign the ODP in the clearance, so under part 91 you can do whatever you like until you are under positive control and thus come close to other aircraft, right?
roncachamp
Final Approach
It appears you believe that separation can only be provided by ATC in a radar environment. That's not the case.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Negative. In a nonradar environment ATC uses nonradar procedures to separate aircraft operating IFR.
Negative. In a nonradar environment ATC uses nonradar procedures to separate aircraft operating IFR.
Negative. Much of the flatlands has poor radar coverage at low altitude.
roncachamp
Final Approach
If ATC does not assign the ODP in the clearance you can do whatever you like that is consistent with your clearance and you may come close to other aircraft that are operating under VFR or are operating illegally in IMC. If ATC does assign the ODP in the clearance and you follow it to the letter you may come close to other aircraft that are operating under VFR or are operating illegally in IMC.
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Velocity173
Negative. Read what Steve said above.
Alexb2000
En-Route
OK, what procedures, that's what I've been asking all along?
roncachamp
Final Approach
Alexb2000
En-Route
RTFM. OK thanks, next time I won't bother to ask.
roncachamp
Final Approach
If you're not willing to examine the manual you didn't really want to know.
Alexb2000
En-Route
Got it. I was just thinking next time I need a doctor I'll just grab a medical text and save the co-pay. Thanks again for the link.
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Velocity173
You're looking at a situation based on multiple ways off handling it. There's no one right way to do it. Different facilities, different techniques and different facilty letters to handle it.
Take the "flat land" method. Where I worked (NBC) it was flat as a pancake. We had it in the SOP to apply the provisions of 4-3-2 (C) of the 71110.65 to assign headings and initial altitude for aircraft departing KARW. They had no ODP because nothing penetrates the 40:1 slope around the field. We could have cleared them as filed with no departure heading but being so close to the air station, a heading was necessary. So, you ask the pilot which runway they're departing and issue the heading based on that. "When entering controlled airspace, fly heading 060, climb and maintain two thousand, expect..." Once that clearance is issued, that field is now off limits for other IFRs until 30 mins after the void time. Since you really have no idea where that aircraft will pop up on radar, you restrict your overflights to 3,000 ft to ensure a 1,000 ft vertical sep. That way that entire climb, even if you don't have radar, separation is ensured with other known IFR traffic. Nothing the controller can do about another aircraft flying around IMC while in class G.
Now, your example with the aircraft departing with another aircraft at the MVA at 12,300 ft. Well, most likely ATC isn't going to let that happen. If you're departing a class G in the mountains, there's a good chance ATC will assign the ODP to ensure separation from the arrival if you're climbing thru his altitude. Or, the controller can just assign an altitude to the arrival 1,000 ft above the altitude of the departure. They'll hold the arrival until radar contact on the departure, then clear him for the approach. If there's no one inbound IFR, then the ODP might not even be necessary for separation. You'll pop up where you pop up consistent with your flight plan route and at the MIA you'll proceed on your way. In that case, all the controller has to worry about is his overflights being at least 1,000 ft above you. That's why you're initial altitude assigned by ATC is so important. It's not only to comply with the MIA in your area, you can bet it'll be at least 1,000 ft below any conflicting traffic.
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Alexb2000
En-Route
Thank you. That makes sense, I was just wondering how you guys did it. Gives me a lot more comfort knowing there are procedures that insure separation.
poadeleted20
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...as long as you're noncommercial. Part 121/135 and the like have no choice -- they must fly it unless ATC directs otherwise.
SbestCFII
Line Up and Wait
ODP are in the Take-off minimums and Obstacle departure procedures in TERPs. They aren't "assigned" by ATC. You should reference them before departing any specific runway where Take-off minimums are specified and follow them so you don't smack into anything. For example, at my home airport, departing Rwy 3, you climb 032 degrees to 1500' before turning West. So if you're departing on Rwy 3 and then flying west (and don't want to smack into the tower there) you'll follow the procedure. DPs (Departure procedures) are different and are assigned in clearances.
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While I'd say ATC assigns far more SIDs than ODPs, they can most definitely assign an ODP to a departing aircraft if necessary-
2. Where only textually described obstacle departure procedures (ODP) have been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance.
EXAMPLE− “Depart via the (airport name) (runway number) departure procedure.”
SbestCFII
Line Up and Wait
The ODP isn't issued in a clearance and has nothing to do with the separation of aircraft. Unless otherwise specified, you're expected to observe the ODP, as applicable, whenever you depart into IMC to avoid obstacles. If I depart JNX runway 3, I climb 032 to 1500' before turning west per the ODP). If I am departing runway 3 and my clearance takes me east, then the ODP doesn't apply. From the replies along the thread, I think some folks are confusing ODPs and DPs (formerly known as SIDs). The latter are assigned procedures to join you with an en-route structure, and the former are procedures flown in the vicinity of the departure airport for obstacle avoidance only.
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Note, however, that if you don't meet the climb gradient specified in the departure minimums, then the ODP does not guarantee terrain and obstruction clearance.
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The ODP can be issued in a clearance and has everything to do with separation. This is right out of the controller's handbook:
2. Where only textually described obstacle departure procedures (ODP) have been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance. EXAMPLE− “Depart via the (airport name) (runway number) departure procedure.”
From a controller perspective:
http://www.stuckmic.com/faa-rules-regulations/10046-odps-can-atc-assign-them.html
Also, SID is the current acronym for Standard Instrument Departure. It hasn't been replaced by DP. That was a proposal about 10 yrs ago that never took for long. DPs are divided into two groups; ODPs and SIDs. These acronyms are out of the current AIM, IFH and 7110.65.
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roncachamp
Final Approach
ODPs can be assigned by ATC.
roncachamp
Final Approach
ODPs can be issued in a clearance.
From Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control paragraph 4−3−2. DEPARTURE CLEARANCES:
aterpster
En-Route
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aterpster
There was a time several years ago that the term SID was dropped in favor of DP. But, the international community had a big issue with it, so the FAA returned to SID by saying DP = SID. (AIM cite below).
Jepp also charts the term SID but the FAA does not. Nonetheless a DP is a SID:
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