Non Resident Private Pilot Requirements

Sinistar

Sinistar

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A co-worker (from China) wants to give her husband a gift certificate for either a discovery ride or first lesson - preferably a first lesson as he is interested in learning to fly. He is also from China and not a US citizen yet. So probably under a green card/visa/???. It is my understanding that he will need some kind of TSA signoff before he can begin his PPL training - do I have that right?

So until he has met the TSA requirement, what can and can't he do as a student pilot? Can he take the controls. Can he do everything up to solo? Is there something he is required to tell the flight school?

If he can't be a student yet, can he do a discovery/scenic flight and not log it?
 
It has been my experience that you don't need to go through the TSA security theatre for a discovery flight, and I've yet to see anything that bases what you can and can't log off nationality.

Now if he wants to continue his training past the discovery flight, he'll have to deal with the TSA alien program nonsense.
 
At my flight school, they can give a discovery flight to just about anybody.
In order to start training at the school as a student pilot, the school requires the TSA process to be completed.
 
TSA rules allow him to take a discovery flight. That's it. AOPA happens to recommend against logging it.
 
James331 said:
It has been my experience that you don't need to go through the TSA security theatre for a discovery flight, and I've yet to see anything that bases what you can and can't log off nationality.

Now if he wants to continue his training past the discovery flight, he'll have to deal with the TSA alien program nonsense.
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Why is it nonsense James? 9-11 proved it's needed. Seems it's worked pretty well since 9-11. The process for an American is easy, foreign it's a bit more involved including fingerprints. No nonsense at all.
 
mscard88 said:
Why is it nonsense James? 9-11 proved it's needed. Seems it's worked pretty well since 9-11. The process for an American is easy, foreign it's a bit more involved including fingerprints. No nonsense at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah except all the 9/11 terrorists would have passed the TSA screenings we have now.

All it would have done would have been to make the government look even more incompetent at keeping main street safe.
 
Sinistar said:
A co-worker (from China) wants to give her husband a gift certificate for either a discovery ride or first lesson - preferably a first lesson as he is interested in learning to fly. He is also from China and not a US citizen yet. So probably under a green card/visa/???. It is my understanding that he will need some kind of TSA signoff before he can begin his PPL training - do I have that right?

So until he has met the TSA requirement, what can and can't he do as a student pilot? Can he take the controls. Can he do everything up to solo? Is there something he is required to tell the flight school?

If he can't be a student yet, can he do a discovery/scenic flight and not log it?
Click to expand...

Discovery flights do not need any TSA approval. Flight training does. In order to count it as an instructional flight, the CFI has to sign his logbook as 'dual instruction given', which he will not be allowed to do without TSA approval. Unfortunately, the law makes no sense because it only targets foreign nationals who want to earn a pilot certificate. Terrorists can still learn how to fly an airplane from a friend as long as they are not applying for a pilot certificate.
 
James331 said:
Yeah except all the 9/11 terrorists would have passed the TSA screenings we have now.

All it would have done would have been to make the government look even more incompetent at keeping main street safe.
Click to expand...

I don't they think would now.
 
mscard88 said:
I don't they think would now.
Click to expand...

Tell me how they wouldn't


Heck look at the Boston bomber, or the Islamic nut job couple who shot up CA, or etc, despite immense intrusions into our privacy, basically scrapping the 4th amendment, and neutering the 2nd in many states, these things still happen, I am glad it makes you FEEL safer, but it doesn't actually make you safer.
 
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sarangan said:
Discovery flights do not need any TSA approval. Flight training does. In order to count it as an instructional flight, the CFI has to sign his logbook as 'dual instruction given', which he will not be allowed to do without TSA approval. Unfortunately, the law makes no sense because it only targets foreign nationals who want to earn a pilot certificate. Terrorists can still learn how to fly an airplane from a friend as long as they are not applying for a pilot certificate.
Click to expand...

American students also are vetted by ID and Birth Cert or Passport. We keep copies in their folder. TSA periodically visits and checks that the requirements are being complied with.

Of course outside of this process anyone can learn to fly.
 
James331 said:
Tell me how they wouldn't


Heck look at the Boston bomber, or the Islamic nut job couple who shot up CA, or etc, despite immense intrusions into our privacy, basically scrapping the 4th amendment, and neutering the 2nd in many states, these things still happen, I am glad it makes you FEEL safer, but it doesn't actually make you safer.
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Those incidents did not involved airplanes James.
 
mscard88 said:
Those incidents did not involved airplanes James.
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The only two they knew were bad dudes didn't even end up being competent enough to be "pilot hijackers" as they couldn't fly worth beans.

So, it would have MAYBE prevented two hijacker from getting flight lessons, BUT those two sucked so bad at flying they weren't used as pilots hijackers anyways, so again, wouldn't have changed a thing

"According to James Bamford, the NSA had picked up communications of al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi"

"Mihdhar and Hazmi were also potential pilot hijackers, but did not do well in their initial pilot lessons in San Diego. Both were kept on as "muscle" hijackers..."


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks
 
James331 said:
The only two they knew were bad dudes didn't even end up being competent enough to be "pilot hijackers" as they couldn't fly worth beans.

So, it would have MAYBE prevented two hijacker from getting flight lessons, BUT those two sucked so bad at flying they weren't used as pilots hijackers anyways, so again, wouldn't have changed a thing

"According to James Bamford, the NSA had picked up communications of al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi"

"Mihdhar and Hazmi were also potential pilot hijackers, but did not do well in their initial pilot lessons in San Diego. Both were kept on as "muscle" hijackers..."


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijackers_in_the_September_11_attacks
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So you're in favor of doing nothing at all to vet these people? Just take our chances and hope for the best?
 
mscard88 said:
So you're in favor of doing nothing at all to vet these people? Just take our chances and hope for the best?
Click to expand...

That's all you basically can do, we just force people to do a (at best) highly ineffective song and dance first and than proclaim it as "secure"


Its how the world works man, its a bummer but it's just comes down to if you want to have freedom and liberty too.

This is a unfortunate part of the human condition.

Look, the government can help stop a actual army or navy from invading, but stopping a lone nut job, they have proven over and over and over they are the wrong tool for that job, but the government is more than happy to play the part, with the additional money and power they take for their role in that production.

The meat and tatters of the matter, its on you and the maybe through dumb luck a cop or Good Samaritan who happens to be there when stuff goes down, to stop that crazy guy who tires to do bad stuff.

Or on the CFI and peoples general observations to not train the dude who you think is a little whacky, my last full time job we turned a couple people away and called it in too. Our instincts are pretty good as our species still is around and made it out of caves and all without being eaten into extinction.

The TSA and all the stuff that comes along with it, really was the start of the "safe space" movement.

Take a listen to this, Mr. Rowe wasn't directing this at TSA, but it cuts to the core of the thought process of TSA and the like.


Starts at 2:40


So what's the answer, know that you are your first and last line of defense, don't think because the government said someone's cool, or because the light turned green that you are actually safe to proceed, and never think that by trading freedoms or liberties that you actually are going to get "safety" in return.
 
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So I can’t find a definition of “discovery flight” in the regs...

So is it a local sightseeing flight for hire that requires a FSDO letter of approval if no instruction is given/possible?

:stirpot:
 
denverpilot said:
So I can’t find a definition of “discovery flight” in the regs...

So is it a local sightseeing flight for hire that requires a FSDO letter of approval if no instruction is given/possible?

:stirpot:
Click to expand...

Stirring the pot indeed!

My understanding is as follows:
If the school charges for a “discovery flight” then it must either:
1. Meet all of the requirements for establishing the person as a legal student including logbook entry for a citizen or TSA check for foreign.
2. Meet the requirements of 91.147 for carrying passengers for hire.

However I am not a CFI or even a commercial pilot so my knowledge is limited.
 
sarangan said:
Discovery flights do not need any TSA approval. Flight training does. In order to count it as an instructional flight, the CFI has to sign his logbook as 'dual instruction given', which he will not be allowed to do without TSA approval. Unfortunately, the law makes no sense because it only targets foreign nationals who want to earn a pilot certificate. Terrorists can still learn how to fly an airplane from a friend as long as they are not applying for a pilot certificate.
Click to expand...


Or learn to fly in their home country first.

Agree with earlier post, TSA check is security theater
 
James331 said:
It has been my experience that you don't need to go through the TSA security theatre for a discovery flight, and I've yet to see anything that bases what you can and can't log off nationality.

Now if he wants to continue his training past the discovery flight, he'll have to deal with the TSA alien program nonsense.
Click to expand...
This. End of story.
 
Sinistar said:
A co-worker (from China) wants to give her husband a gift certificate for either a discovery ride or first lesson - preferably a first lesson as he is interested in learning to fly. He is also from China and not a US citizen yet. So probably under a green card/visa/???. It is my understanding that he will need some kind of TSA signoff before he can begin his PPL training - do I have that right?

So until he has met the TSA requirement, what can and can't he do as a student pilot? Can he take the controls. Can he do everything up to solo? Is there something he is required to tell the flight school?

If he can't be a student yet, can he do a discovery/scenic flight and not log it?
Click to expand...

He can do the discovery flight and ground training. If he decides to start training and gets TSA approval then he can log the discovery flight.

denverpilot said:
So I can’t find a definition of “discovery flight” in the regs...

So is it a local sightseeing flight for hire that requires a FSDO letter of approval if no instruction is given/possible?

:stirpot:
Click to expand...

All the official info on this is here. That is the website where you apply for TSA approval.

  • Demonstration and familiarization flights - Demonstration flights for marketing purposes, and familiarization flights (also called "intro" or "discovery" flights) are also exempted from the TSA security threat assessment.
    This clarification is available on page 56329 in the Interim Final Rule at IFR_Alien_Pilot.pdf
Click to expand...
 
Whoever says the program is well done is an idiot, or has no personal experience with it. It's absolute horsesh*t.

Where's the sense in this: I'm a permanent resident. I went through the background checks, fingerprinting, doctors appointment where for example they physically made sure I am male, and interview to get my green card. I work as a pilot flying a 10500lbs 250kts Pilatus. Now I needed to pay $130 (again!) to learn how to fly a 4000lbs 150kts multi-engine piston.
To qualify, I could be a convicted murderer outside the US. The TSA "security assessment" does not require police records or background checks from countries you have lived in.

Yes, world. Feel safe now.
 
mtuomi said:
Whoever says the program is well done is an idiot, or has no personal experience with it. It's absolute horsesh*t.

Where's the sense in this: I'm a permanent resident. I went through the background checks, fingerprinting, doctors appointment where for example they physically made sure I am male, and interview to get my green card. I work as a pilot flying a 10500lbs 250kts Pilatus. Now I needed to pay $130 (again!) to learn how to fly a 4000lbs 150kts multi-engine piston.
To qualify, I could be a convicted murderer outside the US. The TSA "security assessment" does not require police records or background checks from countries you have lived in.

Yes, world. Feel safe now.
Click to expand...

Flying the /47 or NG eh?

Agree 100%

Well it does makes the elmer fudds and tammys of the US think, for lack of more accurate word, they are safe and it allows the government types to take more money and raise themselves higher above us peasants with their LEAP pay, exemption from most firearms "laws" under LEOSA, pensions unheard of in 95% of the private sector and so on.

But hey, if it's enough of a pain in your butt, generates a ton of paperwork, involves fancy uniforms and badges, all the documents have cool looking stamps and regal looking letterheads, it must work and make everyone safe right lol
 
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injb said:
He can do the discovery flight and ground training. If he decides to start training and gets TSA approval then he can log the discovery flight.
Click to expand...

What reg are “discovery flights” that aren’t instruction flown under?

Very rare to see a flight club or FBO with a Part 135 certificate, or an LOA for local sightseeing flights.
 
denverpilot said:
What reg are “discovery flights” that aren’t instruction flown under?

Very rare to see a flight club or FBO with a Part 135 certificate, or an LOA for local sightseeing flights.
Click to expand...

No idea sorry!
 
injb said:
No idea sorry!
Click to expand...

No worries. I’m just pointing out that a CFI who isn’t giving instruction (because the student hasn’t passed the TSA silliness) needs to know what kind of flight they’re giving under the regs. If they can’t find a way to legally make a “discovery flight”, FAA isn’t going to give two poops about “the boss doesn’t want to lose the potential student” and “we do discovery flights for all our prospective students so they’re excited and want to come back”.

Doubt FAA is going to stop by and care a whole lot about it, but the flight would be a commercial operation without the CFI giving instruction during the flight. Give instruction you’ve busted the TSA rule. So, the correct answer likely is “no flight” until the TSA hoops are jumped through. Unless the operator has a Part 135 certificate or an LOA for sightseeing.

Whether we like it or not, that’s the current rules.

I’d be happy to be wrong on this one, but I can’t find any special dispensation for anything called a “discovery flight”.

Welcome to security theater.
 
denverpilot said:
No worries. I’m just pointing out that a CFI who isn’t giving instruction (because the student hasn’t passed the TSA silliness) needs to know what kind of flight they’re giving under the regs. If they can’t find a way to legally make a “discovery flight”, FAA isn’t going to give two poops about “the boss doesn’t want to lose the potential student” and “we do discovery flights for all our prospective students so they’re excited and want to come back”.

Doubt FAA is going to stop by and care a whole lot about it, but the flight would be a commercial operation without the CFI giving instruction during the flight. Give instruction you’ve busted the TSA rule. So, the correct answer likely is “no flight” until the TSA hoops are jumped through. Unless the operator has a Part 135 certificate or an LOA for sightseeing.

Whether we like it or not, that’s the current rules.

I’d be happy to be wrong on this one, but I can’t find any special dispensation for anything called a “discovery flight”.

Welcome to security theater.
Click to expand...

Good point. I don't know, but I would guess it comes down to definitions. Whatever goes on during a discovery flight meets the FAA's definition of "training" as far as the CFI's privileges are concerned (I'm assuming this because my instructor logged my discovery flight time in my log book, but I could be wrong). So I imagine it's flown under the same regs as normal flight instruction.

Next, we have the whole aviation security law. That law excludes discovery flights from the definition of training, but that's not the same piece of law that authorizes CFIs to instruct. So I think it's all ok!
 
denverpilot said:
I’d be happy to be wrong on this one, but I can’t find any special dispensation for anything called a “discovery flight”.

Welcome to security theater.
Click to expand...

This was answered in post 19 with links to where the TSA approves discovery flights.
 
TSA does not regulate flights logged in pilot logbooks. The TSA specifically allows you to do discovery flights. A conclusion that states you can't log a discovery flight until the TSA approves is ridiculous.
 
Wheels said:
This was answered in post 19 with links to where the TSA approves discovery flights.
Click to expand...

So TSA approves it. Great. It’s still what, a Part 91 flight with a passenger paying 100% for the flight?

Those don’t exist in the regs.
 
mscard88 said:
I was referring to nonresidents.
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Not sure if you knew, but you don't need to provide police records for an M1 visa.

So to qualify for a visa allowing you to enroll on a course of study that gives you a pilot certificate, you can be a convicted murderer.
 
James331 said:
Flying the /47 or NG eh?

Agree 100%

Well it does makes the elmer fudds and tammys of the US think, for lack of more accurate word, they are safe and it allows the government types to take more money and raise themselves higher above us peasants with their LEAP pay, exemption from most firearms "laws" under LEOSA, pensions unheard of in 95% of the private sector and so on.

But hey, if it's enough of a pain in your butt, generates a ton of paperwork, involves fancy uniforms and badges, all the documents have cool looking stamps and regal looking letterheads, it must work and make everyone safe right lol
Click to expand...

I'm "triple qualified" so I fly the 45/47 and NG. All are awesome in their own ways.

And don't even get me started with this sh*t. I just got an email saying my TSA flight school thingy was sent back for "incomplete information". They specifically say you do not have to add pictures of your certificates, and guess why they sent it back?

"The training request you submitted to the Alien Flight Student Program (AFSP) was not processed due to incomplete or inaccurate information. The training request was not processed for the following reason(s):

In STEP 4, Document Information, Upload a digital image of Lawful Permanent Resident Card you created an entry for.

In STEP 4, Document Information, Upload a digital image of the Airman%u2019s Certificate. List the issue date and type ratings, if any. "

Useless. Just darn useless.
 
Thanks for the info. It seems my co-worker can safely buy the gift certificate for her husband's discovery flight. Now, if he wants to start his PPL then he's got some work to do.

Here is what I find weird: You could potentially take a terrorist up on a discovery flight, probably sitting in the right seat and that is okay even though there are dual controls. But you just can't teach that same terrorist :)
 
A flight that takes off and returns to the same airport and stays within 25 miles is one of the exemptions to the commercial operator rules. Any school that meets the requirements to renting planes with instructors to students will meet the requirements to let one of their instructors conduct one of these flights provided the instructor has a second class medical (instruction would only take a third).
 
flyingron said:
A flight that takes off and returns to the same airport and stays within 25 miles is one of the exemptions to the commercial operator rules. Any school that meets the requirements to renting planes with instructors to students will meet the requirements to let one of their instructors conduct one of these flights provided the instructor has a second class medical (instruction would only take a third).
Click to expand...

Need an LOA and random drug testing to do that.

91.147
 
Sinistar said:
Here is what I find weird: You could potentially take a terrorist up on a discovery flight, probably sitting in the right seat and that is okay even though there are dual controls. But you just can't teach that same terrorist :)
Click to expand...
As long as the terrorist was born in the U.S. you are good to go no matter what.
 
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