Non lethal self defense

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

May the force be with you
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I am here to talk about not guns and the coolest not gun I have read about.

I am sure there is some quote ready to go about how nonlethal weapons are a surefire way to get killed by the other guy's lethal one. Let's skip that. We have a spin zone for that. Please lets just talk about this thing. This awesome thing that the Russians have and I really want.

Right now if you break into my house, its going to be a barrage of kitchen knives or more likely me using my family as human shields while I run out the back screaming like a girl.

Check this out though:

Holds 4 shells, fires 5 different types of ammunition
1. Rubber Bullet
2. Flash-Bang Grenade
3. Self contained electric stun bullet (read that again. It sticks in them and shocks them. That's science right there. Russian effing science!!)
4. Signal flare
5. Tear Gas

Laser for aiming, computer chip so it knows what round to fire next and other scientific things. If I shoot one of the kids sneaking back into the house when they are teens, they are going to get jacked up but live to tell their friends how stupid they were.

And if someone did break in, Sending a barrage of Russian science at them is going to be better than screaming "Take what you want! You can have the children! Just don't hurt me! I'm very fragile!"

http://wasp.eu/index.php/en/osa-pb-4-2.html


wasplesslethal2.jpg



osa-889.jpg
 
reminds me of the Lawgiver from Judge Dredd.
 
I've heard it's legally better and safer to shoot to kill.

If someone breaks into my home and demonstrates ability and intent to harm my family or myself, lethal force will be the answer. +P+ JHPs
 
Pretty neat device. Although, with the four shot limit, I'd be hesitant to have that as my only option.
 
It's a handgun with stopping power. It needs to be evaluated based on its ability to stop an assailant. It still has to be aimed, and you need to load it with the appropriate ammunition. I doubt the rubber bullet has the same power to incapacitate an attacker than say, pepper spray, or a Taser.

And you only get four tries.
 
I would load it with one of each type of bullet and pull the trigger four times I think you have plenty of time to pop for more shells and after doing that. I'm guessing though I've never seen this thing fired
 
I think the flash bang grenade ammo is supposed to make them blind and deaf for a couple of minutes but I guess you're going to go as well and need to close your eyesI like that it gives you different choices of ammo. I'm trying to locate the reference online toothy stinger bullet which is being self contained taser it used to be on their website I wonder if they don't offer that anymore. That would be badass
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I would load it with one of each type of bullet and pull the trigger four times I think you have plenty of time to pop for more shells and after doing that.
Click to expand...

That depends a lot on whether you miss!

Still better than nothing though. Intimidation factor might be enough, just depends on the situation.
 
If you want fun ammo try 12 gauge Flechettes.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I would load it with one of each type of bullet and pull the trigger four times I think you have plenty of time to pop for more shells and after doing that. I'm guessing though I've never seen this thing fired
Click to expand...

Except that once you embed a flare in their stomach, it puts it back in the "lethal" category. The real value of this thing is if you're able to legally carry it without needing a CCW. Which is unlikely, given that in many areas you need a permit to carry pepper spray or an electronic Tazer.
 
I think what we all want is something that works like the phasers on 'stun' they use on star trek. Someone comes at you, you shoot them, they fall to the ground unconscious for a little while but otherwise unharmed.

What we actually have are crude devices that try to cause enough pain/knock down force to incapacitate without actually killing a person. The problem with that is you're making a one size fits all device... sometimes they actually do kill. Sometimes you end up with enough of a badass or druggie that they power through or don't feel the pain.

What it would come down to for me is what is the law going to say? Can I carry this thing where I wouldn't be able to carry a traditional gun? Am I liable for injuring someone I catch breaking into my house/car/hangar/whatever if I use it? What if the shot I fire is in the tiny percent that kills ?

There's also the fairly well documented effect of having a weapon you think of as non-lethal that we've seen with the police- they tend to pull the trigger a lot more readily than they would with a traditional firearm which is also a pretty big problem.

Then you consider this... in most likely scenarios where you would use a real gun to defend yourself/your home/property most of the bad guys are going to see your gun, crap their pants, and run away. There's a better than even chance you don't need to pull the trigger... and if you get a badass who isn't afraid then, well... you can pull the trigger.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Except that once you embed a flare in their stomach, it puts it back in the "lethal" category.
Click to expand...

I would probably skip the signal flare just to reduce the risk of burning my house down
 
cowman said:
I think what we all want is something that works like the phasers on 'stun' they use on star trek. Someone comes at you, you shoot them, they fall to the ground unconscious for a little while but otherwise unharmed.

What we actually have are crude devices that try to cause enough pain/knock down force to incapacitate without actually killing a person. The problem with that is you're making a one size fits all device... sometimes they actually do kill. Sometimes you end up with enough of a badass or druggie that they power through or don't feel the pain.

What it would come down to for me is what is the law going to say? Can I carry this thing where I wouldn't be able to carry a traditional gun? Am I liable for injuring someone I catch breaking into my house/car/hangar/whatever if I use it? What if the shot I fire is in the tiny percent that kills ?

There's also the fairly well documented effect of having a weapon you think of as non-lethal that we've seen with the police- they tend to pull the trigger a lot more readily than they would with a traditional firearm which is also a pretty big problem.

Then you consider this... in most likely scenarios where you would use a real gun to defend yourself/your home/property most of the bad guys are going to see your gun, crap their pants, and run away. There's a better than even chance you don't need to pull the trigger... and if you get a badass who isn't afraid then, well... you can pull the trigger.
Click to expand...

there is no perfect solution that's true. I just can't stand the thought of shooting one of my own kids as they are sneaking back into the house after having gone out and toilet paper the neighbors house or something
 
That's understandable. For the record all of my firearms experience comes from hunting and target shooting for the fun of it. I'm no CCW hero... but for your concern my inclination would fall back to my hunting/target shooting safety experience..

Always be sure of your target and what's behind it.

I do run into this in my real world scenario of going out in the middle of the night with my gun because of a noise with the intent of protecting the chicken coop from a coyote, raccoon, fox, or other predator. Now, we have cats and dogs too... I'd feel horrible shooting the family pet so I simply don't fire if I can't tell what it is I'm seeing. As a matter of fact the only time I've actually fired was when it was raccoons breaking into the well-lit garage to steal chicken feed... and I was only able to get a single missed shot off before the angle risked hitting a nearby propane tank.

I realize when dealing with people it's a little more complicated- raccoons don't fire back but maybe level the gun and yell "freeze"! or something?
 
James331 said:
I've heard it's legally better and safer to shoot to kill.

If someone breaks into my home and demonstrates ability and intent to harm my family or myself, lethal force will be the answer. +P+ JHPs
Click to expand...

Dead men tell no tales.
 
Sac Arrow said:
It's a handgun with stopping power. It needs to be evaluated based on its ability to stop an assailant. It still has to be aimed, and you need to load it with the appropriate ammunition. I doubt the rubber bullet has the same power to incapacitate an attacker than say, pepper spray, or a Taser.

And you only get four tries.
Click to expand...

But, but.. why would anyone need a "clip" holding more than n (determined by gun grabbing leftists) rounds?
 
cowman said:
I think what we all want is something that works like the phasers on 'stun' they use on star trek. Someone comes at you, you shoot them, they fall to the ground unconscious for a little while but otherwise unharmed.
Click to expand...

A key difference between Star Trek and Star Wars - blasters don't have a "stun" setting. :yes:
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
there is no perfect solution that's true. I just can't stand the thought of shooting one of my own kids as they are sneaking back into the house after having gone out and toilet paper the neighbors house or something
Click to expand...

If you are not absolutely sure of what you are aiming at and what is behind it, you have zero business firing a weapon at them, "less lethal" or not.

Ever see a taser set someone on fire? How about heart stoppage after being hit with a beanbag round?

Get yourself a large dog- that'll be a more effective deterrent than any "less lethal" gun. And it'll know who belongs and who doesn't.
 
yes we already have very very loud obnoxious dog my understanding is that reduces the risk of a break and somewhere beyond the 90 percent
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
there is no perfect solution that's true. I just can't stand the thought of shooting one of my own kids as they are sneaking back into the house after having gone out and toilet paper the neighbors house or something
Click to expand...

That is why you don't shoot indiscriminately at a noise in the house. First identify the threat and then take appropriate action.

For home defense against kids sneaking in late or someone wanting to break in to steal electronics I have found that lights work well to get rid of an intruder. A BLD also works well. (big loud dog)

For someone that breaks into my house with the intent to do bodily harm, I am not going to use a pop gun.

I have flechettes for my 12 gauge, not in it. I saw how they work while I was in the army. I have seen how a duck billed shotgun can cut people in half.

The stupidest line I have ever heard after a family member is injured or killed by another family member is, "I heard a noise so I opened fire."
 
warthog1984 said:
Get yourself a large dog- that'll be a more effective deterrent than any "less lethal" gun. And it'll know who belongs and who doesn't.
Click to expand...

Years ago, when I lived in Colorado, I owned a German Shepherd and had a trainer working with him that specialized in Schutzhund and protection training. I didn't have him training my dog for that, however, just more overall obedience training, and something to keep his active and his mind busy while I was at work during the day.

He gave me a demo one day with his own highly trained German Shepherd dog. This dog was very friendly and approachable, and I'd never imagined what kind of threat he could be. The trainer had me put on a partial suit, with the heavy padded arm and told me to hold my arm out and get ready.

He said some command (in German) to the dog, and you see his eyes and stature IMMEDIATELY change. He was all business at that point. The trainer gave some other command, and the dog ran toward me and clamped down on my arm. Wow. I'll never forget that. It was like my arm was in a vice, and the dog was not letting go.

Later, when we were talking about it, he said the dogs when properly trained, can be lethal, and I can definitely believe it.

Watching that dog change instantly from friendly happy dog to potential killer was amazing and scary at the same time. Definitely gave me a lot of respect for a properly trained dog.
 
warthog1984 said:
Get yourself a large dog- that'll be a more effective deterrent than any "less lethal" gun. And it'll know who belongs and who doesn't.
Click to expand...

I wish that were true. My dog goes off like a mad-dog every time I come home. I am sure he would scare the **** out of any burglar that tried to get in, except those that might recognize the breed on sight.
 
I have a college friend, who, is a classic dick head. Why I have such a dick head friend I don't know, I guess it's because I'm the only friend he has. This is the kind of guy that gets in to things, then gives them up after a while. Can't hold a desk job. Fortunately he has a well earning wife.

Anyway at one point he decided he was going to get a handgun for self defense. He lived in a pretty crappy part of town since his job was buying crack houses, restoring them, living in them and reselling them. He never shot a gun in his life. Not hunting, military experience, etc.. nothing.

Normally I'm pro get a gun and defend yourself but only if you can accept the responsibility and get the training. I couldn't talk him in to getting the training but I did go with him to the store to help him choose one and then I spent a couple weekends out on the range teaching him out to be safe with it and shoot it.

So far he's still alive and hasn't blown anybody away as far as I know, but he would have been better off with a BFD.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
there is no perfect solution that's true. I just can't stand the thought of shooting one of my own kids as they are sneaking back into the house after having gone out and toilet paper the neighbors house or something
Click to expand...

In a well secured house, a gun would be the last line of defense. That would be after the lights, alarm, locks and big ass dog. If that does not enough of a deterrent, you have a very serious problem.

Home defense is not creeping around in the dark and shooting at shadows!

The problem with non lethal stuff like that device, is that they are designed to take someone down long enough for a bunch of cops to dog pile on them and beat their ass while eventually getting around to cuffing them. Bouncing two rubber bullets off of a cracked out intruder (who probably has a knife, baseball bat or gun) isn't a great defense.
 
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I want motion activated sprinkler system
"Yes officer he went that way, he is the really wet guy"
 
Y'all need to move into better neighborhoods.
 
cowman said:
Y'all need to move into better neighborhoods.
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The criminals often go where the more expensive stuff is located, like "better neighborhoods".
 
Anthony said:
The criminals often go where the more expensive stuff is located, like "better neighborhoods".
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Yep. Gangbangers here shoot each other on the street, but they aren't stupid enough to rob each other inside their homes.
 
I am in what I consider to be a good neighborhood. It is just the what if scenario.
I don't know anyone that has ever been robbed, mugged, broken into, etc

I never cared much but having kids has me on higher alert than in the past. More to worry about.
 
The problem with this and other weapons is, they're only as effective as the person handling them.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
yes we already have very very loud obnoxious dog my understanding is that reduces the risk of a break and somewhere beyond the 90 percent
Click to expand...

Yes. Two dogs here, perimeter security lights on one switch, cameras, motion detectors, one-way in/out drive with 180 deg turn and 00 Buck Shot injection device as a last resort. That is a neat little 007 toy though.
 
I have security cameras that record when detecting motion.
I need to hook them back up. I think the sign "This property monitored..." probably does more than the actual cameras
 
James331 said:
If you want fun ammo try 12 gauge Flechettes.
Click to expand...

The military evaluated flechette rounds extensively in the 1960s and found that they are not worth the trouble. Buckshot is equal or better in 90% of situations.

BTW, in my opinion shotguns are terrible combat weapons. There is a reason that not one single army in the world issues a shotgun as a standard infantry arm. You are better off with a mid-caliber carbine like an AR or AK.

I can enumerate the reasons if you really need me to.
 
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