Non certified equipment in aircraft

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uwm1kl

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uwm1kl
Hey All,

I have a Beechcraft A23-19 that I bought 3yrs ago that has a CHT monitor MGL-TC1 installed in it. Works like a dream showing all 4 cylinder CHT's at the same time, I love having it in the aircraft, adds to the overall safety in my opinion. I have had three annuals without anything being said about it being in the aircraft. But, here are my concerns.......nothing has been listed in my aircraft log books about it being installed, it's not certified for GA aircraft, and I'm afraid of getting ramp checked and them grounding my aircraft. So, my question to the group is.... should I be concerned about this unit being in the aircraft or not?

Thanks,
John
 
uwm1kl said:
three annuals without anything being said about it
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uwm1kl said:
nothing has been listed in my aircraft log books about it being installed
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A better person to ask will be the IA who signed the last annual. He's in the best position to verify or correct the situation for you.

uwm1kl said:
it's not certified for GA aircraft
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Not certified for GA in what way? A missing logbook entry is one thing, but installing it in your aircraft is possible through several methods.
 
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Have you checked the records with the FAA? Have you discussed it with your IA?
 
uwm1kl said:
Hey All,

I have a Beechcraft A23-19 that I bought 3yrs ago that has a CHT monitor MGL-TC1 installed in it. Works like a dream showing all 4 cylinder CHT's at the same time, I love having it in the aircraft, adds to the overall safety in my opinion. I have had three annuals without anything being said about it being in the aircraft. But, here are my concerns.......nothing has been listed in my aircraft log books about it being installed, it's not certified for GA aircraft, and I'm afraid of getting ramp checked and them grounding my aircraft. So, my question to the group is.... should I be concerned about this unit being in the aircraft or not?

Thanks,
John
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No ...
 
Bell206 said:
A better person to ask will be the IA who signed the last annual. He's in the best position to verify or correct the situation for you.


Not certified for GA in what way? A missing logbook entry is one thing, but installing it in your aircraft is possible through several methods.
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Thanks....my annual is due at the end of this month and I will be talking with my IA. The MGL website states that this unit is not FAA approved only for experimental aircraft. How should I proceed to correctly notate it in the log books and have the FAA except everything being that it's already installed? To be honest I don't want to take it out because, it allows me to see all 4 CHT temps operating at the same time, unlike the approved EI and JPI units which use the scan method.
 
Don't mention it to your A&P-IA, If they aren't smart enough to catch it. Shut up. and fly on.

For non required instruments, there isn't a certification required.
 
Tom-D said:
Don't mention it to your A&P-IA, If they aren't smart enough to catch it. Shut up. and fly on.

For non required instruments, there isn't a certification required.
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Elaborate

Example?
 
frfly172 said:
Have you checked the records with the FAA? Have you discussed it with your IA?
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No...haven't checked my records with the FAA, didn't want to draw any unwanted attention at this point. Have not talked with my IA either but, I will being that my annual is due at the end of this month. This only got my attention recently because, I flew to another airport and overheard another pilot talking to someone about being ramp checked and sited for having unapproved equipment in his aircraft. This made me think to take a hard look at my equipment and what do you know......found this error. I'm hoping my IA can correct this without having to pull everything out.
 
Tom-D said:
Don't mention it to your A&P-IA, If they aren't smart enough to catch it. Shut up. and fly on.

For non required instruments, there isn't a certification required.[/Q
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I think he does know......but doesn't see it as a problem, danger, or airworthyness issue.
 
Kind of gray area. You can stick a clock/timer on the instrumnet panel with Velcro and it isn't "permanently" installed. If you don't use it for a required instrument (timing for IFR flights) then it is ok.

Still another oddity. It is acceptable to bolt or screw onto the instrument panel (permanently mount) a holder that firmly holds an electronic device such as a GPS, provided the device can be removed from the holder.

I think something that improves the safety of a flight but isn't required for the flight, then it's not likely to incur diffiiculities.

But then, what do I know. I'm not an A/P and certainly not one with inspection authority.
 
Well you have your answer including some from people that admit they don't actually have any knowledge of the regulations.
 
Now if it was ok to install that device in a certified aircraft do you think MGL would make a point of saying that it is for experimental aircraft only, not to be installed in certified aircraft? Unless someone got a field approval for it, it is a violation waiting to be noticed. If you're lucky it will be a IA, if unlucky it will be during a ramp check.
By the way, I am a IA. If I saw it in there during annual that would be a show stopper. I'd wonder what other non approved stuff was installed and chase you out of my shop.
 
Paulie said:
if unlucky it will be during a ramp check.
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Afaik, feds are not allowed inside your airplane during ramp checks unless you invite them. besides, you have to be a lucky person to be ever ramp-checked flying a small GA piston airplane.
 
Isosceles said:
Afaik, feds are not allowed inside your airplane during ramp checks unless you invite them. besides, you have to be a lucky person to be ever ramp-checked flying a small GA piston airplane.
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Airplanes have windows. I'm done. You guys can argue this without me.
 
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paulie . stick to other than part 91 operated aircraft. you will go broke and you will be correct more often. what about car 3 aircraft do you even know what that is? btw gm dealers are paying almost 30 percent more than any fbo in naples and you wont have to sign log books ,and you will sleep ant night. a win win for all of swfl eta tell me all about the thousands of non tso 170b nav coms
 
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Some one needs to review what a major modification is, and what a minor modification is, which this is, then tell us what the paper work it would require?

The reference is:
FAR 43-A
 
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hotprops said:
paulie . stick to other than part 91 operated aircraft. you will go broke and you will be correct more often. what about car 3 aircraft do you even know what that is? btw gm dealers are paying almost 30 percent more than any fbo in naples and you wont have to sign log books ,and you will sleep ant night. a win win for all of swfl eta tell me all about the thousands of kln90,vs, kln90b installs!
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Was that English?
 
Paulie said:
Was that English?
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I didn't understand it either.

But while you are here, tell me what your reference is to require paper on this, gauge?
 
paul .English, go work for a car dealer you will make more $ and sleep at night .good for you and me
 
uwm1kl said:
No...haven't checked my records with the FAA, didn't want to draw any unwanted attention at this point. Have not talked with my IA either but, I will being that my annual is due at the end of this month. This only got my attention recently because, I flew to another airport and overheard another pilot talking to someone about being ramp checked and sited for having unapproved equipment in his aircraft. This made me think to take a hard look at my equipment and what do you know......found this error. I'm hoping my IA can correct this without having to pull everything out.
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Don’t carry your logbooks with you and unless the inspector is really up on all types of instrumentation, not likely it would be questioned and no wat to check on sight without logs.
 
The OP should pick up a phone and call FSDO to chat about his question. Then he’d know the answer.
 
Isosceles said:
Afaik, feds are not allowed inside your airplane during ramp checks unless you invite them. besides, you have to be a lucky person to be ever ramp-checked flying a small GA piston airplane.
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No

For one, it's not uncommon to get ramped, or have a fed at least look at your plane on the ramp, especially if there is any activity that draws their attention to the field, also your proximity to a FSDO and the time of the fiscal year plays a little bit of a factor.

example, there was some plane that had a engine failure a few years back at the airport I was working at, landed short, no one hurt just some bent metal, plane was put on a flatbed and brought back to the mx hangar, of course the clown squad of police and other types were all over it and the Feds probably got a few dozen phone calls, fast forward a week or so and a fed shows up to look at the plane, and while he was at it poked his nose around the airport, also ramping me and the work plane in the process, no biggie.

Now if you want to try to play the "stay out of my plane" game if they ask to look inside, good luck and gods speed

Remember sadly this isn't a matter or real law with real rights, this is "administrative law" which is more akin to a what most people would call a kangaroo court than to anything you'd expect see in a real court of law.

For the most part some ASI from the FSDO doesn't really want to screw with you, but if you decide to play hard ball and you pizz them off enough that they put their sights on you, you are NOT going to have a good time.


Good write up on ramp checks

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/faa-enforcement/ramp-checks

From the FAA

http://fsims.faa.gov/WDocs/8900.1/V06 Surveillance/Chapter 01/06_001_004.htm
 
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uwm1kl said:
The MGL website states that this unit is not FAA approved only for experimental aircraft
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In general, for a company to market and sell items to the public for use on TC’d aircraft they need some sort of FAA approval like a TSOA, PMA, STC, etc. However, this requirement does not crossover to an aircraft owner.

MGL is simply stating the TC-1 does not have any FAA approval, not that it is “approved” for E-AB only. Just look at an Aircraft Spruce or Univair catalog and look at their install notes. There is no approval system for experimental aircraft except when their AWC is issued.

So to install a TC-1 on a TC’d aircraft falls to the installing A&P. If he determines it is a major alteration, FAA approved data, a 337, and a IA sign off will be required. If determined a minor alteration only acceptable data and A&P sign off required.

FYI: this applies mostly to private Part 91 miscellaneous installs as some other types of installs like IFR certification or Part 135 ops sometime require FAA approved items.

uwm1kl said:
How should I proceed to correctly notate it in the log books
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That question will be for your A&P/IA to answer.
 
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Isosceles said:
you have to be a lucky person to be ever ramp-checked flying a small GA piston airplane.
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I'm not lucky, I never win anything. But I won me a ramp check at a small town airport in Mississippi in a 172. No lie, I have to be the only person in history to get ramp checked there .
 
simtech said:
I'm not lucky, I never win anything. But I won me a ramp check at a small town airport in Mississippi in a 172. No lie, I have to be the only person in history to get ramp checked there .
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Sounds like the ASI must have been lost.
 
Bell206 said:
MGL is simply stating the TC-1 does not have any FAA approval, not that it is “approved” for E-AB only. Just look at an Aircraft Spruce or Univair catalog and look at their install notes. There is no approval system for experimental aircraft except when their AWC is issued.

So to install a TC-1 on a TC’d aircraft falls to the installing A&P. If he determines it is a major alteration, FAA approved data, a 337, and a IA sign off will be required. If determined a minor alteration only acceptable data and A&P sign off required.
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That statement is nothing but a CYA thing for the seller.

The determine factor if it is a major or minor is, "did they modify the aircraft from its design". IOWs did they cut a new hole to stick this in?
 
Unless this aircraft was being used commercially (ie, 135), I wouldn't sweat it. I've been ramp checked (Part 91) several times and this minor modification wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.
 
I know nothing about Musketeers. Is there a standard CHT gauge in the plane? As in... required equipment? If so, replacement needs to be approved as a primary replacement. If not? Whether it's legal or not is up to the IA, and it's easy to find two that won't agree.
 
uwm1kl said:
Thanks....my annual is due at the end of this month and I will be talking with my IA. The MGL website states that this unit is not FAA approved only for experimental aircraft. How should I proceed to correctly notate it in the log books and have the FAA except everything being that it's already installed? To be honest I don't want to take it out because, it allows me to see all 4 CHT temps operating at the same time, unlike the approved EI and JPI units which use the scan method.
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Just to be clear, we manufacture instruments that scan through EGT/CHT temperatures and others that display all cylinders simultaneously.
 
Dave Arata said:
Just to be clear, we manufacture instruments that scan through EGT/CHT temperatures and others that display all cylinders simultaneously.
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They're fully certified and work great. I have a CGR-30P, getting a CGR-30C to replace all my factory gauges.
EI%203CGR.png

detail.jpg
 
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Paulie said:
Now if it was ok to install that device in a certified aircraft do you think MGL would make a point of saying that it is for experimental aircraft only, not to be installed in certified aircraft?
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MGL is protecting themselves. They neither write the rules nor enforce them. Just because they say you can't doesn't mean you can't.
 
dmspilot said:
MGL is protecting themselves. They neither write the rules nor enforce them. Just because they say you can't doesn't mean you can't.
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And most of those disclaimer statements similar to MGL's came out after implementation of Part 3 which added a regulatory violation to anyone misrepresenting parts for sale on TC'd aircraft.
 
Lying to the Feds is probaby worse than the infraction.
 
Dave Arata said:
Just to be clear, we manufacture instruments that scan through EGT/CHT temperatures and others that display all cylinders simultaneously.
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Sorry....didn't mean to sound like EI sales inferior products, just speaking to the units in my price range.
 
Skyrys62 said:
Slap a small in-op sticker across the top and then ignore it.
If you get ramp checked, tell them it was like that when you bought it and you don't use it.
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Something tells me that would attract more attention to it.
 
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