No traffic advisories in a MOA?

[simtech]

Was flying to Middleton field in AL for SERFI a few Fridays ago. Camden MOA was in my path and huge. Talking with ATL center about it and my route I decided to trasisition the active MOA with 2 F-16's in it. It's a big MOA so I stayed my course and altitude and he passed that info on to them. He said once I enter he could not give me traffic advisories....I wondered why...anybody? Two more civil aircraft entered and he told them the same thing.

Now the cool part was I got a traffic hit on my ADSB and it was approaching from behind at 200kts or so. It's gets really really close to me at same altitude. My wife looks back and boom an F-16 peeling away and now the ads-b showed it climbing at almost 400kts. I caught just a bit of it. Was cool...im guessing I was his bogey, which was cool as long as he didn't have active weapons! Hahaha

 

[mscard88]

Probably F-16s from ANG in Montgomery. They use Camden a lot.

 

[Banjo33]

It would probably be impossible for him to provide effective advisories if they were maneuvering dynamically.

 

[Cooter]

Was flying to Middleton field in AL for SERFI a few Fridays ago. Camden MOA was in my path and huge. Talking with ATL center about it and my route I decided to trasisition the active MOA with 2 F-16's in it. It's a big MOA so I stayed my course and altitude and he passed that info on to them. He said once I enter he could not give me traffic advisories....I wondered why...anybody? Two more civil aircraft entered and he told them the same thing.

Now the cool part was I got a traffic hit on my ADSB and it was approaching from behind at 200kts or so. It's gets really really close to me at same altitude. My wife looks back and boom an F-16 peeling away and now the ads-b showed it climbing at almost 400kts. I caught just a bit of it. Was cool...im guessing I was his bogey, which was cool as long as he didn't have active weapons! Hahaha

ATC doesn't actively track everyone in a MOA. I'm guessing that's why they can't give advisories. Some of the military aircraft will be squawking stby.

If you're going to transit, I recommend doing it as close to a boundary as possible so that the military aircraft can work around you. It helps a lot when the transiting aircraft broadcast their intentions, like you did. It helps even more if the flight path makes it easy to work around.

 

[frfly172]

If you fly through an active MOA,be ready to be a target. In some of the moa’s they like to practice interceptions, usually no worry to you as they break it off with room to spare. You also get to see some interesting fighter aircraft close up.

 

[Cooter]

If you fly through an active MOA,be ready to be a target. In some of the moa’s they like to practice interceptions, usually no worry to you as they break it off with room to spare. You also get to see some interesting fighter aircraft close up.

More likely blowing off steam and announcing their presence.

 

[luvflyin]

Was flying to Middleton field in AL for SERFI a few Fridays ago. Camden MOA was in my path and huge. Talking with ATL center about it and my route I decided to trasisition the active MOA with 2 F-16's in it. It's a big MOA so I stayed my course and altitude and he passed that info on to them. He said once I enter he could not give me traffic advisories....I wondered why...anybody? Two more civil aircraft entered and he told them the same thing.

Now the cool part was I got a traffic hit on my ADSB and it was approaching from behind at 200kts or so. It's gets really really close to me at same altitude. My wife looks back and boom an F-16 peeling away and now the ads-b showed it climbing at almost 400kts. I caught just a bit of it. Was cool...im guessing I was his bogey, which was cool as long as he didn't have active weapons! Hahaha

The controllers rule book does not say they can't. It does say they will. It is a required service. It is an additional service subject to higher priority duties like separating IFR traffic, but it is mandatory when workload permits. EXCEPT when other procedures are prescribed in a letter of agreement, FAA directive or a military document. My guess is the military unit who uses that MOA has said we don't want you telling them where we are, we can take care of telling our guys where they are.

 

[Cooter]

My guess is the military unit who uses that MOA has said we don't want you telling them where we are, we can take care of telling our guys where they are.

That would surprise me if it was the case. I'm not sure how well advisories can be provided in a MOA. Not all aircraft are squawking.

 

[roncachamp]

Was flying to Middleton field in AL for SERFI a few Fridays ago. Camden MOA was in my path and huge. Talking with ATL center about it and my route I decided to trasisition the active MOA with 2 F-16's in it. It's a big MOA so I stayed my course and altitude and he passed that info on to them. He said once I enter he could not give me traffic advisories....I wondered why...anybody? Two more civil aircraft entered and he told them the same thing.

There is nothing in the ATC order that states or implies traffic advisories cannot be provided to aircraft operating in MOAs. It's possible Atlanta ARTCC has a facility restriction on it but I think that unlikely. This was most likely a misconception on the part of the controller.

 

[roncachamp]

ATC doesn't actively track everyone in a MOA. I'm guessing that's why they can't give advisories. Some of the military aircraft will be squawking stby.

ATC doesn't actively track everyone outside of a MOA either.

 

[Velocity173]

Doubt they have any offical policy against it. Most likely controller not wanting the responsibility of providing the service in an area where they're unsure if they can provide timely traffic calls. Some will, some won't.

The AIM actually states to contact ATC for traffic advisories while transitioning a MOA. I never terminated an aircraft on FF going through our MOAs . The aircraft is going to go through anyway, might as well provide them FF. Then again, we we worked with the using agency and actually had contact with all military players. Some of these MOAs they're up a different freq and ATC will tell ya "showing multiple targets in XYX MOA that I'm not talking to." Not a MOA I'd fly through.

 

[Cooter]

ATC doesn't actively track everyone outside of a MOA either.

True. I don't know the ATC side of it. But it seems that it would be difficult to provide accurate advisories on high speed maneuvering aircraft.

 

[mscard88]

True. I don't know the ATC side of it. But it seems that it would be difficult to provide accurate advisories on high speed maneuvering aircraft.

I'd agree with you there Cooter, plus the maneuvering, turning and climbing etc that aircraft in a MOA will be practicing would make it difficult for timely advisories.

 

[Radar Contact]

This was most likely a misconception on the part of the controller.

Or maybe the controller after advising that the MOA was active and being familiar with the OP's requested route thought it was unnecessary to disrupt their operation and him saying he wouldn't provide traffic advisories was a last ditch effort to try to get him to go around and potentially not waste the fighters time/gas?

For the record: I personally choose not to transit active MOA's but don't care what others do. As the controller I would still provide traffic advisories to the best of my ability.

 

[luvflyin]

I'd like to see if Atlanta Center has some policy on it. It could be just some individual controllers excercising their personal opinions. But there could be some facility directive about it. To @simtech , would you be willing to file an ASRS on this?

 

[luvflyin]

True. I don't know the ATC side of it. But it seems that it would be difficult to provide accurate advisories on high speed maneuvering aircraft.

It is. All you can say is in so many words 'he's over there right now and I ain't got no idea where he is going to be a few seconds from now, so git yer head out of the cockpit.'

 

[roncachamp]

True. I don't know the ATC side of it. But it seems that it would be difficult to provide accurate advisories on high speed maneuvering aircraft.

I've provided advisories through MOAs many times. You just describe what you observe, just like outside of them.

 

[roncachamp]

Or maybe the controller after advising that the MOA was active and being familiar with the OP's requested route thought it was unnecessary to disrupt their operation and him saying he wouldn't provide traffic advisories was a last ditch effort to try to get him to go around and potentially not waste the fighters time/gas?

Do you mean disruption of the operation by the controller? Shouldn't be doing that.

If the guy decides to go through the MOA without advisories on the same course and altitude he would have with advisories then terminating advisories had no effect on any potential disruption. In the event of a mishap in the MOA termination of advisories could be considered a contributing factor.

 

[airdale]

... He said once I enter he could not give me traffic advisories....I wondered why...anybody? Two more civil aircraft entered and he told them the same thing. ...

Not picking on you at all, but this is in the class of questions that is best answered by calling the controlling facility and asking. On weekdays you'll probably get a receiptionist; ask to talk to the duty supervisor. Evenings/weekends this is probably who will answer the phone. Ask your question. Be ready to provide date, time and ideally frequency in case they want to pull the tapes. There is lots of good speculation here in this thread, but only calling the facility will get you facts.

I probably call one facility or another at least once a year with a question. Unfailingly I get a polite and thorough answer. In my experience ATC wants to help.

 

[Zeldman]

If you fly through an active MOA,be ready to be a target. In some of the moa’s they like to practice interceptions, usually no worry to you as they break it off with room to spare. You also get to see some interesting fighter aircraft close up.

Years ago a friend of mine was in a 172 tracking wolves in North Carolina. They are in a restricted area, talking to the military ATC, when they get a call. 2 F-18s are coming up from your 6, same altitude. It appears they will split and go one on each side. He said they saw the two F-18s, gear down, nose about 40 degrees up as they slowely went around him. He waved, they both waved, then after burner out of site.

 

[Clark1961]

I've gotten traffic advisories in MOAs. No big deal. If the traffic is fast and maneuvering then the controller may well be behind him. I had the fun of watching a T-38 which was descending and slightly below me on a crossing course get told to climb to avoid me. I guess the T-38 driver never saw me because he did climb. There must have been some sort of lag in the altitude display for the controller to tell him to climb. Of course i could only hear one side of the conversation with the T-38 so dunno that pilot's story.

 

[tinerj]

Once, for me, FF in Mark Twain MOA was impossible because the stealth aircraft were running in full stealth mode, no transponder.

 

[EvilEagle]

Atl Center always tells me they are unable to provide FF in MOAs also.

 

[simtech]

I didn't mind that they did not provide me with advisories, just thought it was odd they wouldn't and didn't know if there was a rule or not about it. I figured being F-16's they had the equipment to know where I was anyway and my route and altitude was relayed to them. I really wanted to avoid the MOA as per conversations I've read on here but I just couldn't due to the size without going way out of my way. The MOA starts at the surface and there is an airport within the moa that I was fairly close to. I don't feel it necessary to file anything, was just curious. I thought it was cool actually to see it. However initially I thought all traffic advisories, there were 2 other civil planes in the MOA so maybe they would have provided traffic if we were all close, im not sure. And just to put this out there, they did not end FF they just couldn't proved traffic advisories.

But where I fly I regularly fly under the Columbus MOA's which start at 8k feet. One day early in my training we are out doing maneuvers, not in a MOA, just out in the "practice" area at 3k feet. On our right side a T-38 screams by so fast we heard it over our noise and I swear we could see the 2 pilots in it. After we realized we were still alive we thought it was the coolest thing ever. Still to this day Im not sure if that 38 ever saw us. could have been a bad day for sure, like it was really close and fast, I vivdly remember it!

 

[Velocity173]

Just called ZTL watch desk and asked the question. No, they won't provide FF through an active MOA. Even said "we won't let you go through it." Then I asked if it's just their policy, or for every facility. Said every facility used that policy. Said they treated Active MOAs the same as Active Restricted Areas.

Must be some new policy because we always provided FF and never denied VFR entry.

 

[airdale]

... I figured being F-16's they had the equipment to know where I was anyway ...

I think I recall reading that the fighter radars can be set to suppress slow-movers as just another kind of clutter. Maybe someone can confirm.

 

[roncachamp]

Just called ZTL watch desk and asked the question. No, they won't provide FF through an active MOA. Even said "we won't let you go through it."

Did they say how they prevent it?

Then I asked if it's just their policy, or for every facility. Said every facility used that policy. Said they treated Active MOAs the same as Active Restricted Areas.

He's wrong. Every facility does not use that policy. IMNSHO that policy is unjustified and has no positive attribute.

Must be some new policy because we always provided FF and never denied VFR entry.

So new that it has not yet appeared in any order or notice.

 

[luvflyin]

I've gotten traffic advisories in MOAs. No big deal. If the traffic is fast and maneuvering then the controller may well be behind him. I had the fun of watching a T-38 which was descending and slightly below me on a crossing course get told to climb to avoid me. I guess the T-38 driver never saw me because he did climb. There must have been some sort of lag in the altitude display for the controller to tell him to climb. Of course i could only hear one side of the conversation with the T-38 so dunno that pilot's story.

Controllers never see where anything is. It's always where they were. Can be any where from a split second ago up to about 12 seconds ago depending on which Radar they are using. Most Radars 'predict' a targets track by taking the last few 'hits' and guessing where its going to be in a few seconds and move the target on the scope in between 'sweeps.' When someone 'cranks' in a hard turn in between 'sweeps' the Radar is basically telling lies. Not a huge deal on most of the more modern fusion Radar systems, but it could very significant on a Center Radar turning once every 12 seconds and the plane is haulin azz.

 

[luvflyin]

Did they say how they prevent it?



He's wrong. Every facility does not use that policy. IMNSHO that policy is unjustified and has no positive attribute.



So new that it has not yet appeared in any order or notice.

Yeah. I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that to. Maybe some calls to other Centers might put some light on it. I'll do Seattle.

 

[simtech]

Yeah does seem odd...how would they prevent a VFR plane not talking to anyone from entering? Last time I read VFR, whether right or wrong, could fly in a MOA.

 

[luvflyin]

Yeah. I'm having trouble getting my head wrapped around that to. Maybe some calls to other Centers might put some light on it. I'll do Seattle.

The guy at Seattle said he's never heard of such a thing. He gave me the usual he'd advise against flying in MOA's and when he was still on the boards working traffic he didn't like to do it and usually just termitated planes who decided to go in. But he knows nothing of any directive that prohibits a controller from doing it.

 

[roncachamp]

The guy at Seattle said he's never heard of such a thing. He gave me the usual he'd advise against flying in MOA's and when he was still on the boards working traffic he didn't like to do it and usually just termitated planes who decided to go in. But he knows nothing of any directive that prohibits a controller from doing it.

When I was still providing flight following and working an aircraft that might penetrate an active MOA, I made sure the pilot knew the MOA was in use. If he elected to go through it he received the same service he would if the MOA was cold.

 

[Velocity173]

Did they say how they prevent it?



He's wrong. Every facility does not use that policy. IMNSHO that policy is unjustified and has no positive attribute.



So new that it has not yet appeared in any order or notice.

No idea how he'd prevent a VFR from going in. Would be in violation of the airspace order as well in that VFRs are not denied entry.

He really wasn't forthcoming in the answers. Had to pull it out of him. Answered the phone with a simple, barely readable "hello." Didn't even sound like the watch desk supervisor.

Just texted a friend at ZJX and he said no policy but they will generally either terminate or handoff to the military ATC facility for the airspace. They just want no part in working VFRs with unpredictable military ops I guess.

 

[BillTIZ]

GA traffic in a MOA = TARGET.

Most fighter type aircraft might see you on their receivers, or if they are being worked by a GCI.
My heavy Bomber does not have air-to-Air intercept radar.
I would never see you except for maybe the Mk-1 eyeball pickup.
Are you sure you want to be there with me doing 540-600 knts.

Most likely the military aircraft working in the MOA is not on ATC frequency. They may listen up to hear a call you are there. But their motion is so dynamic that “advisories” are difficult.

 

[Hank S]

I went under Gamecock MOA on an IFR flight plan. F18s were playing above and in front of me, making inverted passes left to right before climbing away, and coming back again. Three of 'em, fun to watch . . . .

 

[BigBadLou]

No idea on their orders why the controller refused.
But imagine if he was trying to give you advisories in a hot training area:
"Skyhawk 345, traffic at your 6 o'clock 5 miles ... no ... 4 miles .. no .. 3 miles now ... he's got a missile lock on you! C'mon, Mav, do some of that pilot sh*t!!"
"Break left, break left! Let's turn and burn ..."

 

[simtech]

Are you sure you want to be there with me doing 540-600 knts.

Most likely the military aircraft working in the MOA is not on ATC frequency. They may listen up to hear a call you are there. But their motion is so dynamic that “advisories” are difficult.

I fly the faster Cherokee 180 out there, your 600kts is no match for me. Hahaha

Seriously though, I really wanted to avoid it but it was going to tack on another hour to get around. They we talking with center as I could hear center telling them of all us aircraft but obviously we couldn't hear them. Did I want to be in there...no but I felt pretty safe at the same time. They knew where I was going. At least I thought they did.

 

[Banjo33]

We have a discrete frequency that we monitor in those MOAs. Center has them as well so that they can provide us advisories.

 

[JimNtexas]

I shudder when I hear civilian GA pilots talking about how much fun it is to fly through a hot MOA.

And btw, that F-16 does have an air-to-air radar, but he's not using it to look for your fliver. It's not like TCAS.

 

[BillTIZ]

I was in GA aircraft transitioning near the Edwards MOA. I was talking to local approach and asked for a transition. Best advice from the controller, “there are a lot of aircraft in there right now, and Blue4 is having a tough time. I wouldn’t recommend it.” Nuff said.