No rudder? Use the doors!

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
20,804
Location
Denton, TX
Display Name
Display name:
The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Just caught this broadcast tonight. This clip is a teaser for the actual broadcast.


Broadcast has a few inaccuracies and over the top sensationalizing. But still it's neat to see some prime time footage of GA.
 
With the right wind conditions you can land without the rudder. Hopefully when you loose the rudder you still have the fuel to get to a good runway.
I don't understand why they tried landing on the road. What are the odds of you loosing the rudder and engine at the same time? Not very likely, unless everything is computer controlled (which is also not that common on GA airplanes).

The experiment I'd really be interested to see is landing without the use of ailerons or elevators. In case of ailerons you should use rudder, if you do it right it will give you just enough roll to line up with the runway. Elevators would be even harder, because than you need to use engine power and flaps for pitch.
 
What's the problem? Just use the ailerons and turn it into a complete non-event.

Fun stuff though.
 
fgcason said:
What's the problem? Just use the ailerons and turn it into a complete non-event.

Fun stuff though.
Click to expand...

In high cross-wind it can be difficult. But as I said above, just get to a runway that is aligned right.
 
Thats interesting. I never tried it, but never thought that opening the left door, would turn the plane right...
 
MachFly said:
The experiment I'd really be interested to see is landing without the use of ailerons or elevators. In case of ailerons you should use rudder, if you do it right it will give you just enough roll to line up with the runway. Elevators would be even harder, because than you need to use engine power and flaps for pitch.
Click to expand...

I've flown with a "grey hair" CFI who did this on one of the laps during my 2nd TnG lesson. Well...sorta....

Hands completely off of the yoke and using just throttle, trim, and pedals, we went completely around the pattern nice and smooth.

No aileron input, but he still had to use elevator trim to control airspeed.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I've flown with a "grey hair" CFI who did this on one of the laps during my 2nd TnG lesson. Well...sorta....

Hands completely off of the yoke and using just throttle, trim, and pedals, we went completely around the pattern nice and smooth.

No aileron input, but he still had to use elevator trim to control airspeed.
Click to expand...

Nice

Did you actually touch down?
 
Yes he did... Then it was my airplane tom resume then regular lesson.
 
MachFly said:
With the right wind conditions you can land without the rudder. Hopefully when you loose the rudder you still have the fuel to get to a good runway.
I don't understand why they tried landing on the road. What are the odds of you loosing the rudder and engine at the same time? Not very likely, unless everything is computer controlled (which is also not that common on GA airplanes).

The experiment I'd really be interested to see is landing without the use of ailerons or elevators. In case of ailerons you should use rudder, if you do it right it will give you just enough roll to line up with the runway. Elevators would be even harder, because than you need to use engine power and flaps for pitch.
Click to expand...

Done it. Just use the trim wheel.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Thats interesting. I never tried it, but never thought that opening the left door, would turn the plane right...
Click to expand...

I think it's because the door is forward of the CG, so the high pressure generated by the open door will push the aircraft around in the opposite direction. The rudder, being aft of the CG, will push the tail in the opposite direction of the deflection which causes the aircraft to turn in the direction of the rudder deflection.

The concept is kind of parallel with how the elevator works vs. ailerons or flaps.
 
Last edited:
If you have an ercoupe you can just stick your arms out the window.

Doors are for barns, real airplanes have canopies.
 
fgcason said:
What's the problem? Just use the ailerons and turn it into a complete non-event.

Fun stuff though.
Click to expand...

Kinda depends on the airplane - my full span slotted ailerons generate so much adverse yaw that without the rudder you just slip for quite a while before any actual turning happens - push the stick left, the nose goes right. Hold it and eventually the nose starts to go left. Push the stick right to level the wings and ZING! the nose REALLY goes left.

You learn to use your feet.

Oh - the doors hinge at the top - opening them doesn't do much at all (except make a big bang when they hit the bottom of the wing if they come unlatched in flight). And once open, they are not going to close. But it's nice to just leave them open on a hot summer day.
 
Kinda depends on the airplane
Click to expand...

Yea. They could be using a Cherokee. A big door on one side, sticking their hand out the little window on the other. Very minor changes in direction or big 270 degree turns to get there.
 
fgcason said:
What's the problem? Just use the ailerons and turn it into a complete non-event.

Fun stuff though.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Who needs the rudder? I fly a Piper. It took a long time for me to figure out what those pedals are for.

----------

The funnest is when you have an unlatched door so the plane keeps making uncommanded left turns, when you're in the pattern for landing flying in formation with your partner flying on your left. :yikes:
 
mikea said:
Yeah. Who needs the rudder? I fly a Piper. It took a long time for me to figure out what those pedals are for.
Click to expand...

Pretty much huh? I figured it out real quick though. A quick 40deg right bank turn from base-final to plummet toward the treetop at the end of the runway will leave the ball against the side of the instrument and you careening toward the wrong treetop unless you use the rudder.

However an open unobstructed no wind runway in flatsville nowhere? You don't need no steenkin' rudder in a Cherokee for that...or in a garden variety tricycle Cessna for that matter.

A rudder is a very useful essential tool however it is not always super critical - within the limitations of the specific airplane and operating environment that is...
 
Last edited:
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Kinda depends on the airplane - my full span slotted ailerons generate so much adverse yaw that without the rudder you just slip for quite a while before any actual turning happens - push the stick left, the nose goes right. Hold it and eventually the nose starts to go left. Push the stick right to level the wings and ZING! the nose REALLY goes left.
Click to expand...
Exactly.....most early planes do not have conveniences like differential travel on the ailerons and consequently the adverse yaw requires alot of rudder.

You can turn a DC-3 without ailerons.....you won't turn it very well without a rudder!
 
MachFly said:
The experiment I'd really be interested to see is landing without the use of ailerons or elevators. In case of ailerons you should use rudder, if you do it right it will give you just enough roll to line up with the runway. Elevators would be even harder, because than you need to use engine power and flaps for pitch.
Click to expand...

I posted this in another thread, but my dad had a CFI back in the 60's who made him fly the 152 using only throttle and the doors.....it can be done.
 
I watched the Penn & Teller show on this last night, I typically like the stuff they do, I knew that opening the door would make the plane yaw, heck opening the window on a Cessna 150 will too. But as folks who had a show on exposing BS, that segment was BS and poorly thought out.
 
bartmc said:
I watched the Penn & Teller show on this last night, I typically like the stuff they do, I knew that opening the door would make the plane yaw, heck opening the window on a Cessna 150 will too. But as folks who had a show on exposing BS, that segment was BS and poorly thought out.
Click to expand...

Yes, apparently the only way to turn a plane is with rudder.
 
bartmc said:
I watched the Penn & Teller show on this last night, I typically like the stuff they do, I knew that opening the door would make the plane yaw, heck opening the window on a Cessna 150 will too. But as folks who had a show on exposing BS, that segment was BS and poorly thought out.
Click to expand...

EdFred said:
Yes, apparently the only way to turn a plane is with rudder.
Click to expand...
As I had said... lots of inacurracies and over the top sensationalism.

Especially showing the "establishing shots" of the aircrat doing low passes on the road while on a significant crab or "tail wag swing".

However, I would have liked to see the entire sequence of film in it's raw form. Or perhaps synched into 4 quadrants so we could see different angles at the same points in time.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I posted this in another thread, but my dad had a CFI back in the 60's who made him fly the 152 using only throttle and the doors.....it can be done.
Click to expand...

Yeah I got to try that. Don't really have any doors, but that's ok.


EdFred said:
Done it. Just use the trim wheel.
Click to expand...

I actually meant without the use of trim either. Not using any part of the elevators.
 
Even if you ignore the fact that ailerons would still be working like they did, I believe they said the road was 10' wide, now you're rudder pedals are stuck in their scenario. This means no steering on the ground. So you want me to line up a C182 on a 10' road with no rudder perfectly or else I'll hit that barb wire fence they kept referring to... No thanks, Im going to find a WIDE field.
 
bartmc said:
Even if you ignore the fact that ailerons would still be working like they did, I believe they said the road was 10' wide, now you're rudder pedals are stuck in their scenario. This means no steering on the ground. So you want me to line up a C182 on a 10' road with no rudder perfectly or else I'll hit that barb wire fence they kept referring to... No thanks, Im going to find a WIDE field.
Click to expand...

Why not just land at an airport? There is no point of destroying or damaging the airplane in the field just because the rudder does not work.
 
bartmc said:
Even if you ignore the fact that ailerons would still be working like they did, I believe they said the road was 10' wide, now you're rudder pedals are stuck in their scenario. This means no steering on the ground. So you want me to line up a C182 on a 10' road with no rudder perfectly or else I'll hit that barb wire fence they kept referring to... No thanks, Im going to find a WIDE field.
Click to expand...

They said no rudder. Not no brakes.
 
10-foot wide road is easily busted here...

Image clearly depicts a 2-lane road with a shoulder... Google fu found:
The U.S. Interstate Highway System uses a 12-foot (3.7 m) standard for lane width. 11-foot (3.4 m) lanes are found to be acceptable by the Federal Highway Administration for automobile traffic, but as lane width decreases (9-foot (2.7 m) lanes are found in some areas) traffic capacity decreases. A full-width freeway lane typically has a capacity of 2,000 cars per hour
Click to expand...
So it's more likely they had about 30-feet of width.
 
fgcason said:
Pretty much huh? I figured it out real quick though. A quick 40deg right bank turn from base-final to plummet toward the treetop at the end of the runway will leave the ball against the side of the instrument and you careening toward the wrong treetop unless you use the rudder.
Click to expand...

Or for my absolutely favorite lesson at a Wings Weekend where I worked out my turn to final spin fear by doing *cough* really steep banks to full stall where I figgired out on my own to use the rudder as the elevator to hold the nose up.

fgcason said:
However an open unobstructed no wind runway in flatsville nowhere? You don't need no steenkin' rudder in a Cherokee for that...or in a garden variety tricycle Cessna for that matter.

A rudder is a very useful essential tool however it is not always super critical - within the limitations of the specific airplane and operating environment that is...
Click to expand...

That's what us flatlanders have. I didn't think I was much good at making it all work until my DPE said I was a good stick and rudder man. Having a lot of hours at that point paid off.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top