No mercy from ATC. Violate every pilot error says FAA

ATC as Traffic Cops?

Many of you have heard about this. AvWeb just broke the story in the last couple of days. If you haven't, you'll want to take a look:
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1182-full.html

On The 25Zulu Show, aviation attorney Alan Armstrong will be with us in the studio as we interview AvWeb's editor-in-chief, Russ Niles, and the National Air Traffic Controllers Association president, Patrick Forrey. This has been a quickly developing story and has pilots wound up all across the country. This is one that you definately want to be a part of.

The broadcast starts at 9:00pm eastern tonight (8/7) on www.GoldSealLive.com

See you there. - Russ Still
www.GoldSealFlight.com
 
Got into a disagreement with a controller last night. No harm, no foul -- and no "call this number", but I guess I have to request the tapes and file a NASA just to be on the safe side, eh? Is this what it's coming to? Cripes.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Got into a disagreement with a controller last night. No harm, no foul -- and no "call this number", but I guess I have to request the tapes and file a NASA just to be on the safe side, eh? Is this what it's coming to? Cripes.
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What did you disagree on?
 
barney said:
Not an Attorney, but this is administrative law as opposed to criminal law and you know the differences better than I ever will, or care to.
:cheerswine:
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Yeah your right that Administrative law kind of goes by its own sets of rules and they change from Agency to Agency. Kind of gets frustrating. Do you mind telling us what you do for a living? Your knowldege of the system suggests you work at the FAA or FSDO or perhaps a contractor. We are always eager to have the input here at POA of anyone involved in aviation, helps us all be better pilots and work with in the system.

Cheers!
 
AdamZ said:
Yeah your right that Administrative law kind of goes by its own sets of rules and they change from Agency to Agency. Kind of gets frustrating. Do you mind telling us what you do for a living? Your knowldege of the system suggests you work at the FAA or FSDO or perhaps a contractor. We are always eager to have the input here at POA of anyone involved in aviation, helps us all be better pilots and work with in the system.

Cheers!
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Ray asked that in another thread, and he replied:

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=334402&postcount=27 said:
No offense taken Ray. One of my many, many responsibilities include investigating PD's and issuing Operations Specifications to Operators, including Air Carriers, but I have been away from the 121 side of the house for a few years now.

I don't proclaim to be an expert, but I have been doing this for a while in various capacities and for long enough to know there are no absolutes in aviation, including the FAA. Some believe the world is black and white but the sky is not.
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Does anybody want to post an official source?
If I read this article correctly, this is just something that the NACTA rep. is saying, and even the details on that are pretty sketchy.
 
roncachamp said:
What did you disagree on?
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Yeah, I don't think I'll post any details on the internet, other than to say I'm convinced he gave me a clearance and then forgot, and he was convinced he did not give me the clearance. The person aboard my aircraft agreed with me that he had given it.
 
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Ken Ibold said:
Yeah, I don't think I'll post any details on the internet, other than to say I'm convinced he gave me a clearance and then forgot, and he was convinced he did not give me the clearance. The person aboard my aircraft agreed with me that he had given it.
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I've had that happen a few times. Usually I find it easier just to back down and "profess" my transgression. They are just human.

As a side note, it can be really fun to go back into the LiveATC achieves (when they exist for your flight) and prove (to yourself) that ATC was wrong.
 
I've got to put one post on this thread and here it is.
It will be a cold day in hell before I do anything that would make life difficult for a contoller. Period
 
Lance F said:
I've got to put one post on this thread and here it is.
It will be a cold day in hell before I do anything that would make life difficult for a contoller. Period
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That's admirable. Based on what's been posted here and in AOPA forums there are many controllers making life difficult for themselves.
 
infotango said:
I've had that happen a few times. Usually I find it easier just to back down and "profess" my transgression. They are just human.
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Yes, that's what it boiled down to in the end. There's no point in getting into a pi$$ing match about it. However, the gist of the AvWeb article is that they are being pressured to turn these incidents into violations. And THAT I have a problem with.
 
infotango said:
Does anybody want to post an official source?
If I read this article correctly, this is just something that the NACTA rep. is saying, and even the details on that are pretty sketchy.
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According to the AvWeb article, it was confirmed by an official FAA spokesperson.
 
They talked about this on 25Zulu tonight, and had Russ Niles (,the author of the article), Patrick Foye (the president of NATCA) on talking about it. You should be able to listen to the archive at GoldSealLive.com. It was a good show. I'll let people listen and come to their own conclusions.
 
It sounds like, from listening to the NATCA guy last night, that the issue is related to just a couple of TRACONs with maybe a little more of a local management problem than this whole thing being a system wide edict. I guess time will tell. I liked Patrick's attitude about the whole thing though - controllers are part of a team to get flights done safely, not FAA police. His position was, if there's no loss of separation or other safety threat then no harm, no foul.
 
To summarize...

Air Traffic Controllers (App/Dep, Center, TRSA, Tower), whose primary responsibility is safe separation of air traffic, will now be required to initiate enforcement action by submitting the requisite paperwork on each and every alleged pilot infraction.

However, there is no one from the FAA (given limited manpower) that can or will review ATC instructions and pilot actions to ensure ATC is in fact submitting each infraction for enforcement action.

There is also no shift or increase in budget to support this change.

IMHO, this is political maneuvering rather than actual policy change.
 
I know that my flying, and my approach to flying will not work for most people on this fourm, but I avoid controlled airspace like the plague, and this is just another reason to keep doing what I'm doing. I am not afraid of controlled airspace, I just don't like being told what heading to take, what altitude to hold, and when to land. I fly where I want, when I want, and how I want. I am so fortunate to live in a part of the country where controlled airspace is few and far between. I have thousands of square miles of free air, and hundreds of uncontrolled airports to play with, and the FAA is nowhere to be seen. Like I said, I know that the rest of you have to fly into it all of the time, but I don't.
 
Maxmosbey said:
I know that my flying, and my approach to flying will not work for most people on this fourm, but I avoid controlled airspace like the plague, and this is just another reason to keep doing what I'm doing. I am not afraid of controlled airspace, I just don't like being told what heading to take, what altitude to hold, and when to land. I fly where I want, when I want, and how I want. I am so fortunate to live in a part of the country where controlled airspace is few and far between. I have thousands of square miles of free air, and hundreds of uncontrolled airports to play with, and the FAA is nowhere to be seen. Like I said, I know that the rest of you have to fly into it all of the time, but I don't.
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Hard to fly IFR that way....

B)
 
Max and I are of the same ilk. I avoid controlled airspace too. But sometimes I need to use it, and everytime I key the mic, or say 'roger' to an instruction, I'm liable for a PD. Bad way to do business.
 
Maxmosbey said:
I know that my flying, and my approach to flying will not work for most people on this fourm, but I avoid controlled airspace like the plague,
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I'll bet you spend a lot more time in controlled airspace than you think, unless you never get above 700 AGL.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'll bet you spend a lot more time in controlled airspace than you think, unless you never get above 700 AGL.
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I know that you like to be a stickler for syntax Ron, but you know what I mean about controlled airspace. We are talking about the airspace where ATC is watching your every move. We are not talking about that airspace between Des Moines and Minneapolis, where you can go wherever you want.
 
docmirror said:
Cross posted from Avweb, and the red board:


Controllers As Airspace Police?
atc_tower_controller.jpg
If you've ever missed a turn, set the altitude bug incorrectly or committed any of thousands of sins that air traffic controllers routinely catch and help correct every day without much fuss, those days are apparently over. The FAA has apparently ordered controllers to violate pilots for any and all errors and has threatened to discipline them if they don't file the reports. While the FAA says it's just enforcing rules already in place, the head of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association say it's yet another burden an an already-overworked workforce that will pit controllers against pilots. "We are not the FAA police! The FAA's and controller's mission is to provide the safe and efficient movement of live air traffic," said NATCA President Patrick Forrey. "The fact that the FAA is now disciplining controllers for not 'policing' pilot actions as they relate to flight regulations is indicative of the tyrannical and oppressive culture the FAA has created." The FAA, as might be suspected, has a different view.

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I suspect it's going to increase radio congestion a lot with every pilot asking for a verification of every instruction. My comm is going to 'off' more now than it used to.
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I keep coming back to this thread and thinking the same things.

It says
The fact that the FAA is now disciplining controllers...
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I have not seen any indication that the FAA is disciplining controllers. Have you?

All the responders have indicated that relations with controllers have continued in the same cooperative spirit we have experienced in the past.

This sounds like knee-jerk paranoia and I wonder whose ox is being gored and whether we are being manipulated.
 
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