No mercy from ATC. Violate every pilot error says FAA

barney said:
You are mistaken how the system works then Grant. ATC submits a FAA form 8020-17 to the controlling FSDO through the ATQS system. Don't believe me? Look in the Order 7110 for controllers and find the procedure to "enforce" a Pilot Deviation (PD), it ain't there because they don't have the authority. The FSDO completes an investigation, files a FAA form 8020-18 and closes the PD in any number of ways from no action to certificate action with many levels of remedy and review in between.
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Actually Grant's analogy is right on. Police don't truly "enforce" the laws - they merely file charges against alleged lawbreakers. They do have the means to arrest someone if they witness a crime being committed, or have reasonable cause to do so. But that arrest power is not without limits. For many many allegations the courts must get involved and issue arrest warrants before the cops can do anything.

The courts are the the only ones who can truly level sanctions against a citizen.

So, the ATCs may be able to act like cops in a limited manner and file charges, but the FSDO's are the equivalent of the lower level courts, where the charges are reviewed, and if found to have merit, action is taken.
 
I don't consider ATC to be the cops of the sky unless you are talking about the cops who stand there directing traffic. The enforcement branch of the FAA is a separate entity. Controllers can report pilots and pilots can report controllers. The difference is that controllers can get in trouble if they don't report certain things, where pilots don't need to worry about that. No one is going to come after a pilot if they don't report some controller mistake even if it's a big one.
 
TMetzinger said:
.

The courts are the the only ones who can truly level sanctions against a citizen.

.
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Well technically the Court's interpret the laws. In reality police do enforce the laws they "Arrest" alleged violators or charge or cite them. In this situarion ATC would really be reporting not enforcing. They are not stopping the pilot from flying or detaining them.

FWIW I think for the most part ATC likes pilots and visa versa and I can't see ATC playing that game. If they do then were all scrod.
 
barney said:
For what its worth, I have a little insight how the system works. A very very simplified version goes like this: ATC reviews/reports, FSDO investigates/reviews/recommends, Region reviews/amends/forwards, RC reviews/amends/files/holds informal hearing, NTSB hears/rules/upholds/modifies/dismisses. It goes on from there and can stop anywhere along the line.
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It appears you do from all the info on the administrative process you cited. What do you do? ATC? FAA Atty?
 
barney said:
For what its worth, I have a little insight how the system works. A very very simplified version goes like this: ATC reviews/reports, FSDO investigates/reviews/recommends, Region reviews/amends/forwards, RC reviews/amends/files/holds informal hearing, NTSB rules/upholds/modifies/dismisses. It goes on from there and can stop anywhere along the line.
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Note the added emphasis. Exactly how it works now. However, if I understand the AvWeb report correctly, the FAA Administration wants that changed so the controller no longer has the option to let it slide if the controller feels it isn't worth reporting even if it's a technical violation -- the no harm/no foul situation. That's the issue here. And since controllers are employees of the Government with little recourse, they will be under intense pressure from the FAA to do what the FAA wants. I think it's important for them to know that there's another side to that coin -- that they need to work with us, too, and that we can make things hard on them if they make them hard on us. It is in our interest to convince the best choice for them is to tell the FAA to go hang, even if that will cause them some pain from the other side.
 
Response from NATCA:

Ronald,

I hear you on the infractions issue – Pat, as well as our members, understand. Since the FAA put the controllers under imposed work rules back in September 2006 things haven’t been the same and we’ve made sure to let the media know that. The recent bad press the FAA has been receiving has led them to publicly declare these showy safety culture proposals when you and I know that they’re not making things safer at all – they’re, once again, degrading the National Airspace System by pitting pilots and controllers against one another rather than focusing on more important issues.

Thanks for your email,
Alex Caldwell
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Sounds like they understand.
 
From reading all the posts, do we REALLY know that ATC is going to do what they are asked to do? What I am saying is, aren't they the only one that knows when you deviate an altitude or something like that?
Maybe they will violate some more flagrant things that they let slide before, but it DOESN'T mean they are going to do every little thing.
I honestly don't know if someone is checking the Radar tapes and the voice tapes to see if every aircraft did exactly what they were told, then go after the controller if they "catch" something that wasn't exactly kosher and the controller gets busted.
The FAA can ASK for a lot of things, whether controllers in the REAL world are going to do it or not, is another story.
I think a wait and see approach is in order on this before we all decide to stop cooperating with them based on one article.
Soon enough, between all the web boards, if it does come to be that they are violating for the least little thing, I am sure we will know about it very quickly.
Just my .02

Mark B
 
Gosh, I wonder how this will affect instructors signing off a student for a solo flight/cross-country? Will the student and myself be written up if the student deviates accidentally?
 
markb5900 said:
From reading all the posts, do we REALLY know that ATC is going to do what they are asked to do? What I am saying is, aren't they the only one that knows when you deviate an altitude or something like that?
Mark B
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I guess SoCal might have to write up the many Disney TFR and misc c & d space bust that probably happen daily. Up til now they've verbally chastised the offenders (freq congestion permitting) and suggested training w/ cfi's to learn the space.

So, do you think they'll setup a department to review radar tapes for PD's? I wouldn't put it past the gov to invent new task forces within an agency.
 
While I don't believe "the sky is falling" as Barney puts forth, I do believe the potential is there when the administrator puts a directive on those dealing down at our level; i.e., we pilots and the controllers. I doubt very seriously the controllers want to write a report on any pilot unless the violation is so blatant; that being a serious accident/injury has happen or is right around the corner with that particular pilot operator.

Someone else mentioned aspects of the Aviation Safety Enhancement Act (HR 6493) which changed how inspectors operate with regard to the airlines. There's nothing in that bill that goes beyond 121 operations but I can't help but wonder if the administrator has done their own "enhancement" of the rules which affects not only 121 pilots but all pilots. I could find nothing in the House or Senate for any bill applicable to the action discussed here.

As said time and time again by many here, such action by controllers is not going to enhance safety. But, I don't really fear controllers will actively seek out to follow this rule. They have too much to gain by working with and assisting a pilot who may have a slight deviation.

However, the fact that the administrator is pushing this scares the hell out of me. I'm in favor of Ron's response. I hope it doesn't come to that but given the administrator's rather lack of friendliness to general aviation...
 
lahso said:
Gosh, I wonder how this will affect instructors signing off a student for a solo flight/cross-country? Will the student and myself be written up if the student deviates accidentally?
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I have the same thought while preparing to start teaching at AUS.
 
barney said:
ATC is only the first step, and if you think they are going to change because you, who don't cause the Tuesdays to come around, you are mistakely barking up the wrong tree.
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Actually we do pay them, through something called "taxes." :D

I think you are mistaking Ron's response for one of antipathy towards controllers. If I may speak for Ron (and I find what he said entirely reasonable), if ATC is going to start gigging pilots for every little PD, then it would only be fair and reasonable for pilots to view that as a two-way street, and return the favor.

If I get the "phone number" to call, and have to go through FAAggravation, then why shouldn't that also be the case for the guy sitting nice and snug in his air-conditioned tower who goofs on a vector?

In a larger sense, I think you would agree that we all (ATC and Pilots alike) are being played for stooges by the FAAntichrist. I really liked the response Ron got back from NATCA. Hopefully we'll be allies in this little battle.
 
Call me Pollyanna, but I think that this is a tempest in a teapot. The additional controller time required to follow this dictum has to come from somewhere, and my gut tells me that the controllers are not going to roll over for the FAA (although they are ostensibly the same). NATCA and their bosses are never on the same page. My face-to-face contact with controllers over the years tells me that they are concerned more with safety than with regulatory minutiae, and that is as it should be.

Bob Gardner
 
Surprised no one else posted it, but this web page may be getting a lot of use:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Don't know how much it'll help, but since I am also flying around at the mercy of Chi App you can bet next time I even think it's an error on my part that web site will be my first stop. What a bummer.....
 
roncachamp said:
To minimize the possibility of colliding with another airplane in the clouds?
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No, to avoid getting written up. ;)

I'm joking of course, but the point is: although it's not ATC's job to help us when we make errors (unless it creates a traffic conflict), it's always been my impression that part of their effective role is to bear with our imperfections sometimes,in the name of safety. In my limited experience I've had controllers go "above and beyond" for me, "just because". I'm sure a pilot going down on most controller's scopes, even due to that pilot's mistake(s), hurts just as bad as having a mid-air. They really are on our side for the most part- many of them are GA pilots themselves.

Besides, they have enough to do without taking time to play tattle-tale. It's a bad idea, and it will ultimately hurt the safety record, IMHO.
 
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KennyFlys said:
As said time and time again by many here, such action by controllers is not going to enhance safety. But, I don't really fear controllers will actively seek out to follow this rule. They have too much to gain by working with and assisting a pilot who may have a slight deviation.

However, the fact that the administrator is pushing this scares the hell out of me. I'm in favor of Ron's response. I hope it doesn't come to that but given the administrator's rather lack of friendliness to general aviation...
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The problem is that GA will lose the PR war. FAA will unleash it's PR guns about all the violations and how they're improving safety. The media will eat that up. Congress will eat it up and say "why did you wait so long?" The airlines will point to the unsafe little planes and say "see, we need 'em out of our airspace".

You want an example of how the PR war works? Take a look at some of the idocy that the TSA does, and how they spin it in the name of "safety". ID checks to enter airports.... the war on water.... even the 2 kids that rode the conveyor belt (did they lift off, or not :D ). TSA promotes their terminal dumps and other things in the "name of protecting us". So far, they win, and millions of passengers lose.

The only thing that is guaranteed to make it stop is if there is an accident directly attributed to the FAA's new policy. Well, that and congressional/presidential action.
 
955 said:
Surprised no one else posted it, but this web page may be getting a lot of use:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/

Don't know how much it'll help, but since I am also flying around at the mercy of Chi App you can bet next time I even think it's an error on my part that web site will be my first stop. What a bummer.....
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Let's not be the ones to start this! Let's see if they actually do start turning in every little deviation.

Of course, this could all be an effort by the Administrator to increase the staffing requirements, thereby a) growing the size of the administration, and thus his turf and b) justifying the need for additional funding, and thus user fees! Think that could be it? Nah... Too Machiavellian!:rofl:
 
Anthony said:
So we can now violate them when they make a mistake too. Right?

:rolleyes:
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Well now, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish... I like to think their supervisors catch these things, but sure, turnabout is fair play, isn't it? ;)
 
rottydaddy said:
Well now, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish... I like to think their supervisors catch these things, but sure, turnabout is fair play, isn't it? ;)
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A supervisor would first have to recognize the error.
 
roncachamp said:
Of course. Getting written up is much worse than a midair.
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A lot of facetious, sarcastic and other types of humor appear in these posts often. It's always good to remember that some of the finest pilots in the country post on here, and I doubt if any of them intentionally defy safety of flight issues. :yes:
 
The FAA wants controllers to report every violation by a pilot. The controllers don't want to do it and pilots don't want them to do it. So some pilots want to make life hard for the controllers or simply less pleasant?

What's wrong with that picture?

This is a case where one would think that all pilots would go out of our way to be pleasant and cooperative with controllers -- and vice versa. FAA management is the evil dark lord in this picture and there's a new sheriff coming to town in six months.

Don't be silly enough to fall for the FAA's game and declare war on the controllers? Play for time, be nice, be good, fly safe and lets hope the controllers take the same view. If anything, let the public know through letters to the editor or any other venue how stupid the FAA management has become. Let your congressman and Senator know, too.
 
Whadda buncha baloney. Our guys have already shrugged their shoulders. I won't quote the facility manager (#*$%^#@!). C90 won't be a factor because they don't talk to GA (at least willingly).
 
bbchien said:
Whadda buncha baloney. Our guys have already shrugged their shoulders. I won't quote the facility manager (#*$%^#@!). C90 won't be a factor because they don't talk to GA (at least willingly).
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However they DO talk to airlines and I didn't see where they were JUST targeting GA. :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
Note the added emphasis. Exactly how it works now. However, if I understand the AvWeb report correctly, the FAA Administration wants that changed so the controller no longer has the option to let it slide if the controller feels it isn't worth reporting even if it's a technical violation -- the no harm/no foul situation. That's the issue here. And since controllers are employees of the Government with little recourse, they will be under intense pressure from the FAA to do what the FAA wants. I think it's important for them to know that there's another side to that coin -- that they need to work with us, too, and that we can make things hard on them if they make them hard on us. It is in our interest to convince the best choice for them is to tell the FAA to go hang, even if that will cause them some pain from the other side.
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It will prove interesting to see how this plays out. At one time in the not too distant past, the FAA was an advocate of aviation. We all worked together to make the skies safer for everyone and broaden the number of people in aviation. Over the years however, it seems that has changed to having the FAA be the enforcer, which has resulted in an antagonistic relationship. Your letter to NATCA was quite good and the response equally good. Whether this turns out to be an issue of the FAA trying to get good press or some evil conspiracy with the airlines is yet to be seen.

Hopefully it will be a minor issue.

Gary
 
qbynewbie said:
The FAA wants controllers to report every violation by a pilot. The controllers don't want to do it and pilots don't want them to do it. So some pilots want to make life hard for the controllers or simply less pleasant?

What's wrong with that picture?
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I doubt it's a desire of any pilot to take things out on a controller. Now, if a controller does make a serious error he or she needs to answer just as much as the pilot who commits a serious error.

The problem is the controllers are caught in the middle between the administration and the pilots. Unfortunately, the only way to handle issues with the FAA is for the pilots to turn the tables on actions by controllers who are forced into this by the administrator.

On one side, it's a childish game. On the other side, it's survival against the "machine."
 
KennyFlys said:
Unfortunately, the only way to handle issues with the FAA is for the pilots to turn the tables on actions by controllers who are forced into this by the administrator.
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And how is that going to help? I think this is all much ado about some press release. What do you expect them to say, "We are going to be ignoring pilot and controller errors?"
 
KennyFlys said:
The problem is the controllers are caught in the middle between the administration and the pilots.
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Gonna have to mildly disagree with you on this one. Controllers aren't facing certificate action under the new rules. They do face administrative action if the FAA feels they aren't going along with the program, but the pilot is the one going in the crapper in this new scenario.

All they(ATC) have to do to keep the wheels in motion is to fill out a piece of paper for every deviation. Do that, they're golden. The pilot, however is now facing the wrath of the FAA.
 
Everskyward said:
And how is that going to help? I think this is all much ado about some press release. What do you expect them to say, "We are going to be ignoring pilot and controller errors?"
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It won't help. Everyone gets hurt in the end. The pilot making the complaint against a controller will also be under the spotlight.

I hope it does end up as nothing but only time will tell. What I do expect is let professional controllers make a judgment call as they do now whether a matter requires further attention. It seems to work now so let it be.
 
docmirror said:
Gonna have to mildly disagree with you on this one. Controllers aren't facing certificate action under the new rules. They do face administrative action if the FAA feels they aren't going along with the program, but the pilot is the one going in the crapper in this new scenario.

All they(ATC) have to do to keep the wheels in motion is to fill out a piece of paper for every deviation. Do that, they're golden. The pilot, however is now facing the wrath of the FAA.
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I agree, the pilots have more to lose. But, the controllers are still caught in the middle. As I said, it's a sad, childish game the administrator is playing.
 
This is only going to cause more friction between all involved parties when there doesn't need to be. We should all be looking out for each other, controller or pilot.

Can anyone say NASA ASRS? As they say, it's a jungle out there.

cookiemonster.jpg


Best,
 
barney said:
Now I know why I hate phones. I will try to go in order.

Yes, you and I both pay taxes but my paycheck and the FAA's operating budget isn't signed by either one of us or anyone else on this board. Congress appropriates the funds that pay my check. I don't get to decide how my taxes are spent to any appreciable extent.

Return the favor to ATC to your hearts content. I don't get those reports to act on, they go to another place in the Administration where QA for ATC lives.

Don't worry about the phone number to call, we will be the ones calling you. Play it how you want, but this is the best chance/level to have it killed. Tell me kiss off, be a jerk, Ok by me, you just lost the only advocate you can have until you hire a lawyer.

I bet when I walk into my Division Chiefs office and lay down the law, my life isn't going to be what it was before I walked in. I have negotiated many a labor contract in the world and I am my facilities PASS Rep now. I am still just an Employee when I walk out of the negotiations, irrespective of what legal protection I had while in the room.

Remember what happened when the NATCO pulled an illegal job action. Government Service is a bit different than the Civil Sector, some good, some bad. Going #2 in your mess kit on the first day of patrol is never a good idea because you will be eating #2 from that day on.
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I think you need to take a deep breath. There seems to be some antagonism implied in your posts. The tax thing was a joke, ergo the smiley. :D

As far as the phone numbers - yes, I don't think there's any question that a positive, constructive attitude will help mitigate the problem. I think you're missing the greater concern here: pilots are concerned that the ability to "mitigate" might just be taken out of ATCs hands. The current system works pretty well - ignore the small stuff, correct the bigger stuff on the phone, and send the really big stuff up the chain.

Our (I'm speaking purely as a pilot, I presume you are a pilot/controller) concern is that we'll get nailed for every little thing. Is it so difficult to see that in such an environment it would not be unreasonable to expect 100% performance from ATC as well? Two can play the game. There are crappy pilots and crappy controllers; there are pilots with attitude problems and there are controllers with attitude problems.

Hopefully the controllers and AOPA/EAA/NBAA can get together and present a united front to squash this lunacy.

:yinyang:
 
lahso said:
Gosh, I wonder how this will affect instructors signing off a student for a solo flight/cross-country? Will the student and myself be written up if the student deviates accidentally?
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Keep your student out of airspace.

Dan
 
KennyFlys said:
I agree, the pilots have more to lose. But, the controllers are still caught in the middle.
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Only if they allow themselves to be put there. We just need to remind them why they don't want to let that happen -- Mutually Assured Destruction, and all that, which kept the peace for a very long time.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only if they allow themselves to be put there. We just need to remind them why they don't want to let that happen -- Mutually Assured Destruction, and all that, which kept the peace for a very long time.
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Agreed. I'm truly hoping the controllers continue status quo and there's no repercussion as a result. Hopefully, the union steps forward in a major way on this one unlike any other. If the administrator thinks there is stress in the ranks now, it ain't gonna get any better with such demands pushed forward.
 
yea right, now way any FSDO in the country is staffed well enough to deal with the billions of violations that would come in.
 
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