No love today from SWA

strangebird

strangebird

Pre-takeoff checklist
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strangebird
Anyone notice a large number of SWA flights being cancelled, 400 some so far today,? Other airlines all very few cancellations

Weather or the mechanic issues that have been reported in the news?

My early flight today from ATL- MDW w that are all stops or connections are still on time and there are arrivals at MDW this morning despite some snow, ATL is weather is good right now, makes you wonder why no love
 
strangebird said:
Anyone notice a large number of SWA flights being cancelled, 400 some so far today,? Other airlines all very few cancellations

Weather or the mechanic issues that have been reported in the news?

My early flight today from ATL- MDW w that are all stops or connections are still on time and there are arrivals at MDW this morning despite some snow, ATL is weather is good right now, makes you wonder why no love
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yeah, there was an article about maintenance issues or something.
 
The weight of your baggage ,has more to do with extra revenue,as opposed to safety.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
1000 pounds is almost a statistical anomaly.
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Agreed. They don't weigh the passengers either. Figure 177 gymnasts/jockeys at 100 lb. each, versus 177 linebackers at 300 lb. Unlikely that your passenger load would go to either extreme, but that's a 35,400 lb. delta! :eek:

MTOW of a standard 737 is 155,500 lb., so 1000 lb. is 0.64%
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s a bs article. There isn’t an airliner flying that really knows how much it weighed at takeoff.
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Future news story: FAA mandate that all 121 ops to stop at weigh station after push-back from gates. Teamsters Union to administer.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Agreed. They don't weigh the passengers either. Figure 177 gymnasts/jockeys at 100 lb. each, versus 177 linebackers at 300 lb. Unlikely that your passenger load would go to either extreme, but that's a 35,400 lb. delta! :eek:

MTOW of a standard 737 is 155,500 lb., so 1000 lb. is 0.64%
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Large groups like that should be accounted for but there is still a very wide margin.
 
On board load sensors are not complicated. Just a simple set of strain gages properly calibrated would do the trick. Even auto CG readout based on real sensed data (as opposed to declared) would be easily gonkulated.

As always with the airlines, it comes down to cost, which is why the mechanics are rocking the boat in the first place.

I've stopped thinking about myself as the only one deserving of my pay in this world. Just like history shows us you only own or can claim stake to that which you can hold on to by force or social agreement not to use force, we re only worth what we can negotiate or take for ourselves. So more power to them. America, by hook or by crook.That's the only morality.
 
hindsight2020 said:
On board load sensors are not complicated. Just a simple set of strain gages properly calibrated would do the trick. Even auto CG readout based on real sensed data (as opposed to declared) would be easily gonkulated.

As always with the airlines, it comes down to cost, which is why the mechanics are rocking the boat in the first place.

I've stopped thinking about myself as the only one deserving of my pay in this world. Just like history shows us you only own or can claim stake to that which you can hold on to by force or social agreement not to use force, we re only worth what we can negotiate or take for ourselves. So more power to them. America, by hook or by crook.That's the only morality.
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That's all fine and good if they wouldn't hide behind the law if SWA cans them. Unions didn't work like they do now when they were actually about just voluntary bargaining collectively. So instead of being with what you can negotiate, now union workers are worth what the NLRB will make the employer accept.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s a bs article. There isn’t an airliner flying that really knows how much it weighed at takeoff.
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Not exactly true. Using statistical averages can come very close. Fuel burn on airline flights is a function of weight and I find the flight plans amazingly accurate. When the fuel burn is off the weight is off. Most airlines have a load audit procedure for situations like that to determine the error.
 
Jeff767 said:
Not exactly true. Using statistical averages can come very close. Fuel burn on airline flights is a function of weight and I find the flight plans amazingly accurate. When the fuel burn is off the weight is off. Most airlines have a load audit procedure for situations like that to determine the error.
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We are both right.
My assertion is that we don’t know exactly what we weigh.
You state the estimated weight is very close and that statement is supported by how close our fuel burns are compared to planned.

In fact both are true. Simultaneously true. As cost conscious as SWA is I have no doubt their weight and balance procedures are robust.

The article is click bait ********.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s a bs article. There isn’t an airliner flying that really knows how much it weighed at takeoff.
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Yes, well the article mentioned that they had weight issues, had developed a solution and shared it with the FAA.

But the weight issues are not the maintenance issues that are grounding flights.
 
bflynn said:
Yes, well the article mentioned that they had weight issues, had developed a solution and shared it with the FAA.

But the weight issues are not the maintenance issues that are grounding flights.
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I suspect the maintenance issues weren't really what grounded the flights either. You can pretty much ground any plane you want for maintenance reasons if you really want to. I think this had much more to do with the on going contract negotiations than anything that would have realistically impacted the safety of a flight.
 
Lindberg said:
That's all fine and good if they wouldn't hide behind the law if SWA cans them. Unions didn't work like they do now when they were actually about just voluntary bargaining collectively. So instead of being with what you can negotiate, now union workers are worth what the NLRB will make the employer accept.
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If you think that the NLRB is dictating terms to the airlines, you are mistaken. The fact is that unions that work under the RLA are neutered in what they can do to try to force the company to negotiate a contract. Under the RLA, contracts don’t expire, they just become “amendable.” The SWA mechanics have been negotiating with SWA for over 6 years to get a new contract. And this is SWA, the one airline that’s supposed to be the “airline of LUV” and treat all their employees with warmth and respect, with the best management/labor relations in the industry.
 
Sluggo63 said:
If you think that the NLRB is dictating terms to the airlines, you are mistaken. The fact is that unions that work under the RLA are neutered in what they can do to try to force the company to negotiate a contract. Under the RLA, contracts don’t expire, they just become “amendable.” The SWA mechanics have been negotiating with SWA for over 6 years to get a new contract. And this is SWA, the one airline that’s supposed to be the “airline of LUV” and treat all their employees with warmth and respect, with the best management/labor relations in the industry.
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Exactly
 
Sluggo63 said:
If you think that the NLRB is dictating terms to the airlines, you are mistaken. The fact is that unions that work under the RLA are neutered in what they can do to try to force the company to negotiate a contract. Under the RLA, contracts don’t expire, they just become “amendable.” The SWA mechanics have been negotiating with SWA for over 6 years to get a new contract. And this is SWA, the one airline that’s supposed to be the “airline of LUV” and treat all their employees with warmth and respect, with the best management/labor relations in the industry.
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As @Juliet Hotel wrote, they can probably find a reason to ground pretty much any airliner. And when the airline decides to keep flying, the union puts out a press release. And if you think the law doesn't give unions distinct advantages, even under the RLA, my guess is you've never negotiated or litigated with them.

SWA did have great relations with its unions, and Herb credited that as part of the airlines success. I'd bet a wooden nickle you've got a different generation at the helm now.
 
Meh. The NMB are hatchetmen for airline management. When your ability to carry out work stoppages deemed legal in any other industry, can get "iced" for the better part of a decade under the "interest of national commerce" canard, you have no collective bargaining power in earnest.
 
Sluggo63 said:
If you think that the NLRB is dictating terms to the airlines, you are mistaken. The fact is that unions that work under the RLA are neutered in what they can do to try to force the company to negotiate a contract. Under the RLA, contracts don’t expire, they just become “amendable.” The SWA mechanics have been negotiating with SWA for over 6 years to get a new contract. And this is SWA, the one airline that’s supposed to be the “airline of LUV” and treat all their employees with warmth and respect, with the best management/labor relations in the industry.
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hindsight2020 said:
Meh. The NMB are hatchetmen for airline management. When your ability to carry out work stoppages deemed legal in any other industry, can get "iced" for the better part of a decade under the "interest of national commerce" canard, you have no collective bargaining power in earnest.
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Absent knowledge of the contract terms the union is demanding, it's not logical to assume the impasse is the fault of Southwest.
 
3393RP said:
Absent knowledge of the contract terms the union is demanding, it's not logical to assume the impasse is the fault of Southwest.
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Well, it’s not logical to conclude the impasse is the fault of Southwest. It is logical to assume the impasse is the fault of Southwest.

It’s going on 7 years. That’s 7 years with no pay raises, no improvements in scheduling or quality of life. And that’s during one of the most prosperous eras for airlines in recent memory. Who benefits more from not signing a contract? The mechanics, who at a minimum have lost out on 7 years of raises, increases to their retirement plans, etc., or the company who has employees critical to the continued safety and success of their airline still working under 2012 pay scales?

We can’t be sure who’s to blame for the impasse, but if I had to bet, my money is on the company.
 
Lindberg said:
And if you think the law doesn't give unions distinct advantages, even under the RLA, my guess is you've never negotiated or litigated with them.
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I’ve worked as an airline pilot for close to 20 years, with two different airlines. Been through quite a few negotiation cycles.

What distinct advantages does the law give unions under the RLA?

Lindberg said:
SWA did have great relations with its unions, and Herb credited that as part of the airlines success. I'd bet a wooden nickle you've got a different generation at the helm now.
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You’re correct. Herb hasn’t been in charge for quite a while. In fact, he passed away several months back.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Well, it’s not logical to conclude the impasse is the fault of Southwest. It is logical to assume the impasse is the fault of Southwest.

It’s going on 7 years. That’s 7 years with no pay raises, no improvements in scheduling or quality of life. And that’s during one of the most prosperous eras for airlines in recent memory. Who benefits more from not signing a contract? The mechanics, who at a minimum have lost out on 7 years of raises, increases to their retirement plans, etc., or the company who has employees critical to the continued safety and success of their airline still working under 2012 pay scales?

We can’t be sure who’s to blame for the impasse, but if I had to bet, my money is on the company.
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There's a third party you didn't mention.
 
Lantraxco said:
Back when we walked back and forth to school ten miles in a foot of snow, uphill both ways, we just measured the landing gear struts to check our takeoff weight.
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I guess that would require taking for granted the struts were properly serviced...
 
Those 40 or so aircraft that can't be dispatched due to mx/inspections due are still ticking away towards those heavy inspections that aren't due now. This is a slowly evolving disaster.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Well, it’s not logical to conclude the impasse is the fault of Southwest. It is logical to assume the impasse is the fault of Southwest.

It’s going on 7 years. That’s 7 years with no pay raises, no improvements in scheduling or quality of life. And that’s during one of the most prosperous eras for airlines in recent memory. Who benefits more from not signing a contract? The mechanics, who at a minimum have lost out on 7 years of raises, increases to their retirement plans, etc., or the company who has employees critical to the continued safety and success of their airline still working under 2012 pay scales?

We can’t be sure who’s to blame for the impasse, but if I had to bet, my money is on the company.
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Who said they didn't get raises? You are assuming that the mechanics don't get normal annual merit-increases as part of their existing contract. They could have received raised every year for all we know. Also, just because SWA didn't acquiesce to the unions' demands doesn't mean they are "to blame" for the current situation. It's a negotiation, and if there are items that each side is asking for which aren't acceptable terms, then the blame falls on both sides. SWA has to try and maintain a competitive advantage, and part of that means trying to keep operating costs as low as they can. Can't fault them for trying.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Who said they didn't get raises? You are assuming that the mechanics don't get normal annual merit-increases as part of their existing contract. They could have received raised every year for all we know. Also, just because SWA didn't acquiesce to the unions' demands doesn't mean they are "to blame" for the current situation. It's a negotiation, and if there are items that each side is asking for which aren't acceptable terms, then the blame falls on both sides. SWA has to try and maintain a competitive advantage, and part of that means trying to keep operating costs as low as they can. Can't fault them for trying.
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Sure you can fault them! Look where it’s gotten them... starting to look penny wise pound foolish... good labor relations are hard to recover...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
SoonerAviator said:
Who said they didn't get raises? You are assuming that the mechanics don't get normal annual merit-increases as part of their existing contract.
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I'm not assuming. They don't.

SoonerAviator said:
They could have received raised every year for all we know.
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We do know. Their pay has been frozen since the amendable date of the last contract. Health care costs have gone up every year, though.
However, SWA Aircraft Maintenance Technician have endured a pay freeze and healthcare cost increases since August 16, 2012 (6 years or 2,196 days).
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Source: http://www.amfanatl.org/images/pdf_docs/20180824_SWA_Profits_Flyer.pdf

SoonerAviator said:
Also, just because SWA didn't acquiesce to the unions' demands doesn't mean they are "to blame" for the current situation. It's a negotiation, and if there are items that each side is asking for which aren't acceptable terms, then the blame falls on both sides.
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I agree, but like I said, I've been through several rounds of contract negotiations in the airline world. When times are tough, management is all to quick to try and get the contract signed because they can "cry poor" and get the best deal. That's usually when the union is holding out for better. When times are good, it's the airline that tries to delay.

SoonerAviator said:
SWA has to try and maintain a competitive advantage, and part of that means trying to keep operating costs as low as they can. Can't fault them for trying.
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I get it. It's nothing personal. Just business. But when your front line mechanics start to feel disrespected by the lack of progress on a new contract, although that same company is relying on them more and more for opening new routes and generating more revenue (i.e. ETOPS certification for Hawaii flights), don't be surprised when those guys and gals who are turning the wrenches don't feel like going the extra mile by selling back their vacation, coming in on off days, working overtime, etc.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I'm not assuming. They don't.


We do know. Their pay has been frozen since the amendable date of the last contract. Health care costs have gone up every year, though.

Source: http://www.amfanatl.org/images/pdf_docs/20180824_SWA_Profits_Flyer.pdf


I agree, but like I said, I've been through several rounds of contract negotiations in the airline world. When times are tough, management is all to quick to try and get the contract signed because they can "cry poor" and get the best deal. That's usually when the union is holding out for better. When times are good, it's the airline that tries to delay.


I get it. It's nothing personal. Just business. But when your front line mechanics start to feel disrespected by the lack of progress on a new contract, although that same company is relying on them more and more for opening new routes and generating more revenue (i.e. ETOPS certification for Hawaii flights), don't be surprised when those guys and gals who are turning the wrenches don't feel like going the extra mile by selling back their vacation, coming in on off days, working overtime, etc.
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Let me know when you have copies of the meeting transcripts and various contract versions. Until then, it's just baseless to argue about placing blame on anyone. If it were just about wages, I'm sure they could have come to an agreement by now. I'd imagine there's quite a lot more to the contract negotiations which has been the subject of impasse.
 
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