No COVID vaccine for pilots, yet...
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Your thread title is misleading. As far as we know, and the article doesn't refute, the FAA has not taken a position. If you assert that pilots may not get the vaccine, please cite a reg or official statement that says so.
CharlieD3
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Okay.
Can you get the vaccine NOW?
Are you a pilot?
Do you know any pilots who can get the vaccine NOW?
No vaccine for pilots, yet....
Ravioli
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I think the thread title is pretty accurate.
They haven't decided on the vaccine that is pending approval, so that's a "NO" and they have stated that participating in trials is also "no". However the second no is identified as a statement from the union based on communication with the FAA.
They haven't decided on the vaccine that is pending approval, so that's a "NO" and they have stated that participating in trials is also "no". However the second no is identified as a statement from the union based on communication with the FAA.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Yes. Yes. Yes. No.
Point me to the reg or ruling that says pilots can't get the vaccine. Point me to the medical standard. Point me to the AME guidance.
We're not taking about side effects-just getting the vaccine.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Please point me to such a list. Better yet, point me to the space on the med form where you would disclose that you had the vaccine.
That the FAA cares about every little thing you do to your body is an OWT.
Lindberg
Final Approach
That's not correct. There's no requirement anywhere that the FAA approve of everything you put in your body.
CharlieD3
En-Route
You can get the vaccine now?
And, you're right about the third question... It was a jest there is a list of medications you can take for certain conditions.
So, you have gotten the COVID-19 vaccine?
Or just a flu shot? (That may have covid similarities)
And, you're right about the third question... It was a jest there is a list of medications you can take for certain conditions.
So, you have gotten the COVID-19 vaccine?
Or just a flu shot? (That may have covid similarities)
Ravioli
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I may need to go back to English as a Primary Language classes. The article begins with: "The FAA says it hasn’t yet determined whether pilots will be able to get vaccinated against COVID-19 and keep their medicals."
Is your assertion that only "No" means "No", and than that "maybe" and "hasn't yet determined" mean "yes - go for it"?
Pretty bad advice for a vaccine that is only available in clinical trials (previously discussed). Also, I don't think Pilots are "first responders" so by the time the vaccine is generally available the official guidance should be well settled.
But for now, seems no vaccine for pilots.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Do you have a medical? Have you had a flu shot? Any other vaccines? Where did you disclose them to the FAA?
Lindberg
Final Approach
My assertion is that "everything which is not prohibited is allowed." The FAA has not taken a position. If it hasn't taken a position on the vaccine, it hasn't prohibited.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but people should not base their decisions on rumor. Please just tell me what reg or ruling prohibits pilots from getting this vaccine, or even experimental vaccines in general. How would the FAA even know you'd had it?[/QUOTE]
CharlieD3
En-Route
Basic med.
So, while you currently needn't report vaccines... Should you report taking "experimental" drugs with unknown short and long term effects?
See, the vaccine is not yet a vaccine... Well, except in Russia and China... You can take one of those if you wish... I'll pass.
Starting tomorrow you can get the vaccine in the UK...
There is a history of designer drugs in this country... Which one could take and get all kinda high on.. they were not illegal, until they were. That has changed.
Me, I'll wait for FAAther to say okay, go!
If they fail to say that... And to some degree even if they do.... I won't take the vaccine. As to approved, the degree of likelihood is dependent on the guage of the needle... Among other things
Lindberg
Final Approach
How and where would I report it?
Ravioli
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The problem with your thought line is that we don't even know what is in the vaccine. Therefore we can't know if any of its components are already banned. In which case, you could win the battle with COVID and be in a world of medical compliance issues because you took something that is prohibited.
If I'm not mistaken, every single thing on the "naughty list" was tested for general use but determined to be a "no" for aviators.
Willing to roll those dice for something with 98% survival rate when left unmitigated? No thanks.
CharlieD3
En-Route
And, for the record... Here's something the FAA has said:
"
FDA (Food and Drug Administration) approved less than 12 months ago. The FAA requires at least one-year of post-marketing experience with a new drug before considering if for aeromedical certification purposes. New antibiotics, lipid-lowering drugs, and antihypertensive medications may be considered earlier than one year. Please contact the RFS or AMCD for guidance on specific applicants."
Source:https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/pharm/dni_dnf/
Which also states:
"
Do Not Fly. Airmen should not fly while using any of the medications in the Do Not Issue section above "
And, the "... approved less than 12months ago..." section is in the Do Not Issue section.
No vaccine for pilots, yet.
"
FDA (Food and Drug Administration) approved less than 12 months ago. The FAA requires at least one-year of post-marketing experience with a new drug before considering if for aeromedical certification purposes. New antibiotics, lipid-lowering drugs, and antihypertensive medications may be considered earlier than one year. Please contact the RFS or AMCD for guidance on specific applicants."
Source:https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/pharm/dni_dnf/
Which also states:
"
Do Not Fly. Airmen should not fly while using any of the medications in the Do Not Issue section above "
And, the "... approved less than 12months ago..." section is in the Do Not Issue section.
No vaccine for pilots, yet.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Right there on that page:
Even if that guidance was relevant, which it isn't, the COVID vaccine isn't listed there.
I've answered all of your questions. Why will you not answer my questions? What's the reg that prohibits the vaccine? Where would you report that you had it?
Lindberg
Final Approach
What vaccine components are currently banned?
Lindberg
Final Approach
Let me try to make this easier by eliminating scary COVID and vaccines: Let's say, in a world with no COVID, a pilot takes a vacation in Mexico. He accidentally drinks some tap water and gets a raging case of Montezuma's revenge. The hotel manager gives him a pill, telling him, "This is a fantastic medicine you cannot get in the US because of your stupid FDA, but it will cure you." Our hero, who would rather die than live like this, eagerly swallows the pill (with bottled water), falls asleep, and the next day feels 100% better. When the pilot gets home two weeks later, does he still have a valid medical? May he fly? Must he disclose the pill to the FAA? Why or why not?
chemgeek
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chemgeek
True, but if the FAA denies pilots the opportunity to avail themselves of a COVID vaccine under the upcoming EUAs, it will be an irresponsible public health action. The EUA will be based on all the data normally used for licensure of vaccines except for several years of monitoring for rare long-term effects with near zero risk of sudden incapacitation. Nor more or less than for licensed vaccines such as those for influenza, shingles, mumps, measles, etc. Given the impact of the current pandemic on public health and the economy, this small adjustment in vaccine release criteria seems well-justified and of little risk to flight safety.
Ravioli
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The bans are described as classes of drugs, and their generic and trade names. I have no idea what is in Covid vaccines, or any other vaccine for that matter, but until it is known, it is an unknown. Unknowns induce risk,
I suppose I could read this to mean, The FAA won't even look at it until it's been on the market for a year, so until than it IS NOT a "No". But there's risk as to what happens when they get around to it and that outcome, I assume, is retroactive.
I think that some pilots are considered first responders- EMT, fire, police, although they may not interact with the public in the same fashion as other first responders. Just the usual PoA hair splitting
Ravioli
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I think that some pilots are considered first responders- EMT, fire, police, although they may not interact with the public in the same fashion as other first responders. Just the usual PoA hair splitting
I thought about those as I wrote that. Also Care flight, right? By and large, though, those are some REALLY socially distanced pilots.
I think you are correct on both points. I thought some of those pilots had medical training, but I may well be wrong. I also suspect they only use the medical training on someone in an unusual situation. But I'm swimming way out of my lane, blowing as much smoke as a CA wild fire, and I won't argue with anyone who says otherwise.
Matthew Rogers
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Matt R
Well for the trials, they would have to get the raw data to prove that you did not just get a saline injection.
Lindberg
Final Approach
What bans are you referring to? What bans are there by the FAA that affect any vaccines?
So why are you asserting it is prohibited for pilots? What other "unknowns" are prohibited for pilots? Where's the general FAA prohibition on experimental vaccines that supposedly exists?
Allow me to blow your mind: What if the FAA never "looks at it"? Does that mean it is prohibited for pilots forever?
Bottom line: Where is the requirement that the FAA approve everything an airman puts in his body?
Ravioli
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So you have the opportunity to say you're correct I will write it, right here: There is no requirement that the FAA approve everything an airman puts in his body.
Feel good?
However, there are clearly requirements for things that MAY NOT be put in an airman's body.
Your medical. Your dice. Roll as you see fit.
Lindberg
Final Approach
If it means you'll stop telling people that pilots can't get a vaccine, yes. I know too many pilots who refuse to make rational medical decisions because of OWTs and boogeymen.
Ravioli
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And as we cascade towards the lock...
Why is it a "rational medical decision" to take a new vaccine for a disease with a 98% recovery rate? Oh, that's right. It's SCIENCE. How many other things with 2% global mortality rate must this ludicrous "rationality" be applied to?
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Next question:
Where do you prefer, in the hip or in the arm....
Where do you prefer, in the hip or in the arm....
CharlieD3
En-Route
I never said they can't get a vaccine... I said they couldn't get it yet.
FAA's direction is clear to me, even without a cited reg.
An airman should not take a drug that has not been FDA approved for over 1year. Certain classes of those medications not approved for over 1year can be taken if the FAA has determined that they can. Vaccines did not appear among them.
That doesn't stop the FAA from approving a vaccine, all the vaccines, or none of them.
At this point it (the vaccine(s))is (are) a drug that has not been approved by the FAA. And has not been approved by FDA for over a year. AND the FAA states an airman should not take one of those drugs as it falls into one of the DNI categories.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Don't get it. Seriously. You should not get it. Heck, I don't plan to get it anytime soon. I couldn't care less if anyone decides not to get it. Just stop telling pilots that it will cost them their medical or the FAA has prohibited it.
Lindberg
Final Approach
This is just not true.
CharlieD3
En-Route
Why should this cascade to a lock?
We merely differ on the interpretation of the recommendation of the FAA (or the lack of any specific guidance at all from them). And whether, as such, we should await clarification as the original article suggests, or go ahead and take a vaccine in (direct or indirect) opposition to FAA guidance that exists for all pharmaceuticals, whether by regulation or simply guidance.
Ravioli
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Not sure what you've been reading. There is no decision (yet) and experimental trial language is in the article citing the Pilots Union and FAA as source.
I just think it's a dumb risk for something that the vast majority of people (and pilots) will survive with minimal impact.
CharlieD3
En-Route
I cited FAA documentation regarding pharmaceuticals that had not been approved by FDA for over a year.
I'm sorry you disagree with me, and what the FAA states.
Lindberg
Final Approach
ALPA is the only source for that claim, and ALPA does not cite any reg.
The case fatality rate for chicken pox is less than .01%. We vaccinate for chickenpox. If you get the chickenpox vaccine, can you fly?
bflynn
Final Approach
These threads are really getting ridiculous.
Experimental drugs are a no no. I really hope nobody needs this explained to them. Drug trials are experiments.
Yes, once the FDA provides approval for a vaccine, you’ll be able to get it, if you CAN get it. It will be scarce for a while.
Experimental drugs are a no no. I really hope nobody needs this explained to them. Drug trials are experiments.
Yes, once the FDA provides approval for a vaccine, you’ll be able to get it, if you CAN get it. It will be scarce for a while.
CharlieD3
En-Route
For the last time: "
Do Not Issue. AMEs should not issue airmen medical certificates to applicants who are using these classes of medications or medications."
Class 1blah
Class 2 blah
Class 3 blah
FDA (Food and Drug Administration) approved less than 12 months ago. The FAA requires at least one-year of post-marketing experience with a new drug before considering if for aeromedical certification purposes. New antibiotics, lipid-lowering drugs, and antihypertensive medications may be considered earlier than one year. Please contact the RFS or AMCD for guidance on specific applicants.
Class 5 blah"
And:
"
Do Not Fly. Airmen should not fly while using any of the medications in the Do Not Issue section above "
+++++++++++++
ANY medication that falls in the class of "FDA approved less than 12 months ago..." should not be used by an airman unless the FAA changes it's mind..
Do Not Issue. AMEs should not issue airmen medical certificates to applicants who are using these classes of medications or medications."
Class 1blah
Class 2 blah
Class 3 blah
FDA (Food and Drug Administration) approved less than 12 months ago. The FAA requires at least one-year of post-marketing experience with a new drug before considering if for aeromedical certification purposes. New antibiotics, lipid-lowering drugs, and antihypertensive medications may be considered earlier than one year. Please contact the RFS or AMCD for guidance on specific applicants.
Class 5 blah"
And:
"
Do Not Fly. Airmen should not fly while using any of the medications in the Do Not Issue section above "
+++++++++++++
ANY medication that falls in the class of "FDA approved less than 12 months ago..." should not be used by an airman unless the FAA changes it's mind..
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