Night Landings - hepl!

ChrisK

ChrisK

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So my home airport is 2300x37.5 (incl. displaced threshold) with some pretty nonstandard lighting. I've landed there maybe 7-8 times at night.

Last night - I have no idea why - I had one heck of a problem. I would enter downwind, cut power abeam the numbers, start descending, turn base, turn final and completely lose sight of the airport. I felt like a complete idiot. I went around twice, and only finally landed when I maintained visual almost throughout the entire numbers - base - final. I noticed I was dropping below 50 knots on short final, so I added some power and nosed down a little to compensate and pulled a pretty good not-so-hard short field landing out of it.

I think my problem in part was that I had never landed at night on that side of the airport before. Approaching on that end, the runway lights seem to blend in to the surrounding street lights. I think maybe I just need some more practice at my home field to be more confident at night. Knowing where the beacon is in relation to the runway helps a bit, but...

If anyone has any tips - even if they are to say "go practice landing on that side at night" - I'd love to hear them. I'd also like to know if this problem is altogether unusual.
 
Some airports just suck to see, even lit up at night. See if there's any good landmarks to use... Things like lakes and what not that show up great in the dark.

And go back to flying a low wing. Hahah. Kidding. ;)
 
Get into the pattern before daylight is gone, and keep going as the light fades. If at any point you feel uncomfortable, divert. Then try it again the next night and see if you can go deeper into the gathering dark.
 
Ron Levy said:
Get into the pattern before daylight is gone, and keep going as the light fades. If at any point you feel uncomfortable, divert. Then try it again the next night and see if you can go deeper into the gathering dark.
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Only problem with diverting is that, well, that's my home airport. If I divert, I'm sleeping wherever I land, and some renter the next day might be a bit annoyed ;)

I think I proved last night I can manage to put it down on that side if I'm persistent and not afraid of going around. Replaying my landing attempts last night actually kept me up for an hour and a half.
 
Is it the turns when you lose it?

Can always go waaaaay out and do a long straight in to get a nice loooooong look. Especially at night if no one else is out playing.
 
Can you control the lights? Leave them on low or med...cycle them to high turning base. Gives you a chance to turn em off and turn em back on to see if that helps even more.
 
denverpilot said:
Is it the turns when you lose it?
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Yes, absolutely. And last night I was flying a 152, so yes high wing.
denverpilot said:
Can always go waaaaay out and do a long straight in to get a nice loooooong look. Especially at night if no one else is out playing.
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Yeah I had the same thought on my second attempt, but I think I started my descent too early and it is possible I had my DG slightly misadjusted (though I'm not too sure on that). During that attempt I got myself TOTALLY turned around to the point that I couldn't find the airport at all. Like I said, felt like a total idiot. Ended up climbing away and circling around again to re-locate the airport and re-enter the pattern. I was considering a couple of long finals, so thanks for the advice. I'll try that out too, but this time I'll stay at TPA until I'm on base.

Our airport is usually quiet at night with no one else in the pattern. It is almost all VFR primary training, and most of the instructors only do the minimum night training. Not to say that there aren't folks who land at night, but it certainly is much less busy.

Due to my desire to visit relatives and go to nighttime meetings with my cert, getting more comfortable with night landings at my home field is pretty high on the priority list.
 
However you accomplish the mastery of landing at your airport, may I suggest you involve an instructor or at least a safety pilot? This would allow you the freedom to look at the area around the airport while on approach. You could familiarize yourself with some landmarks such as shopping center parking lots, prominent streets, etc.

I think it might be safer to do this with some help on board, at least for a few landings. Losing track of your airspeed is an indication you were behind the airplane and perhaps at risk.
 
jFlight said:
Can you control the lights? Leave them on low or med...cycle them to high turning base. Gives you a chance to turn em off and turn em back on to see if that helps even more.
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They are non-standard and only turn "on" and "off". They're considered low intensity iirc.

3393RP said:
However you accomplish the mastery of landing at your airport, may I suggest you involve an instructor or at least a safety pilot? This would allow you the freedom to look at the area around the airport while on approach. You could familiarize yourself with some landmarks such as shopping center parking lots, prominent streets, etc.

I think it might be safer to do this with some help on board, at least for a few landings. Losing track of your airspeed is an indication you were behind the airplane and perhaps at risk.
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This is a good point. I've talked to my instructor about it, and have landed with him recently at night. He says I'm fine, so I'm wondering if this is a bit a confidence issue. I'll probably engage him for an hour or so after dark to tweak me up on that runway a bit. You're dead on about the airspeed thing. I was so worried about / fixated on the airport that I dropped my scan on short final.
 
ChrisK said:
They are non-standard and only turn "on" and "off". They're considered low intensity iirc.
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What's your altitude MSL? Night vision can be a funny thing. I've lost the runway lights on a couple occasions and asked for the intensity to be turned up.

If cockpit lighting is too bright it can be easy to lose ground lights. Perhaps individual eye sensitivity varies on this one. I try to minimize interior light.
 
Clark1961 said:
What's your altitude MSL? Night vision can be a funny thing. I've lost the runway lights on a couple occasions and asked for the intensity to be turned up.

If cockpit lighting is too bright it can be easy to lose ground lights. Perhaps individual eye sensitivity varies on this one. I try to minimize interior light.
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Airport is 1210'. And... zomg. I usually use a red filtered headlamp but I used the weak white dome light for that approach. Gah.
 
My airport has bigger runways and standard lighting so I am not sure my ideas will work or not. First make sure all your lights in your cockpit are as low as possible. Any amount of bright light may affect your night vision. If you have GPS in the plane it may help you with locating the runway at night. Certainly, practicing at dawn or dusk may help get you in the practice. I agree with going with your CFI. I do not know how experienced you are, but I did not feel comfortable at all with night flying after I got my PPL. During my IFR training, I took a flight with my CFII at night for practice, and now fly at least once or twice a month at night to keep up the practice. It is amazing how fast I lose my skills if I do not, and in any case like others I find night flying extremely enjoyable.

Good luck.
 
ChrisK said:
Airport is 1210'. And... zomg. I usually use a red filtered headlamp but I used the weak white dome light for that approach. Gah.
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Sounds like maybe you've figured it out. We can only guess but you're the guy in the driver's seat who puts it all together.

I have a tough time with the brightness of the 430 and the Aspen. I compensate by covering the 430 display and using O2. Sorta weird to use O2 at low (6,000 msl) altitudes but it does help.
 
Clark1961 said:
Sounds like maybe you've figured it out. We can only guess but you're the guy in the driver's seat who puts it all together.

I have a tough time with the brightness of the 430 and the Aspen. I compensate by covering the 430 display and using O2. Sorta weird to use O2 at low (6,000 msl) altitudes but it does help.
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Couldn't have done it without you.

My return was at 6500' for about 75 minutes. How early should I make my descent provided altitude WAS a problem? That is something else I never considered.
 
ChrisK said:
My return was at 6500' for about 75 minutes. How early should I make my descent provided altitude WAS a problem?
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I dunno. The body is supposed to recover quickly from O2 problems but I haven't done any experiments to determine how long I take to recover. I'm still at the stage of saying that the world is a whole lot brighter (generally) if I have the O2 on.
 
denverpilot said:
Is it the turns when you lose it?

Can always go waaaaay out and do a long straight in to get a nice loooooong look. Especially at night if no one else is out playing.
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True, but that's a dangerous move if there are obstacles. If there is no instrument approach to that runway, you may not have a normal looking approach path, i.e. 3 degrees +/-. I'd recommend staying high on your long approach.
 
The answer for descents at night is not to descend until the runway environment is made. ;)

I know that sounds contrite, but at some airports 1000' isn't enough. Most airports, that's fine.

With non-standard lighting there probably isn't a VASI?

You might enjoy visiting a larger airport just to cano the lights up to full-tilt-disco mode once. :)
 
denverpilot said:
The answer for descents at night is not to descend until the runway environment is made. ;)

I know that sounds contrite, but at some airports 1000' isn't enough. Most airports, that's fine.

With non-standard lighting there probably isn't a VASI?

You might enjoy visiting a larger airport just to cano the lights up to full-tilt-disco mode once. :)
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I've been to bigger fields at night. Way easier and more fun. I'm planning some night flights to a class c that I'm looking forward to :)

No vasi at home. That would be too damn easy.
 
Chris -

The most sensible thing to do is have a CFI ride along and give you some pointers. Sometimes 20mins is all it takes.
 
I had a similar problem. My airport was 2,600 feet by 50 feet but was surrounded by developments. I had a bear of a time gauging everything. What finally worked for me was a couple of evenings of practice going from dusk to dark. When I still had enough light to visually gauge my location around the airport, I found the transition to all dark was much easier. A mental image was finally formed that helped make the landings easier.

When I moved over to the BIG airport it was much easier with the PAPI, VASI and adjustable runway intensity. When I moved back to a small airport, it took me some time to make the transition again. Even long time pilots need practice...
 
All very sensible advice. The runway direction I was having trouble with is not considered the "calm wind runway"; however, I think I'll follow some of the advice here and get an instructor with me during dusk and we'll approach from the end I was having trouble with. I strongly suspect that my issue was with the dome light in the cabin, and when I use proper night lighting this issue will mostly go away.

I'll report back!
 
If you are losing sight in the turns use your DG through 70* before you pick up your wing and look out to 10:00 and learn to count your turns. If you have a VASI/PAPI use it, if not, no worries, just don't let it get too flat with the threshold in front of you, 2300 is more than plenty of runway in any trainer, it's more than enough for my 310 as long as nothing goes wrong getting out.
 
I am also based at an airport with non-standard lighting, it's just white lights and seems to blend in with the surrounding clutter. You can only see the red and green threshold lighting at the right angles. On more than one occasion returning from XC at night I've had trouble finding the airport. In my case, I need to get oriented quickly, as I've got Bravo all around @ 1,500MSL, TPA is 1,000 MSL (800AGL), a restricted area in the form of an amusement park and nearby is the DC FRZ ~1 mile from the airport; actually there was a notch cutout in the FRZ to accommodate traffic at the airport.

A couple things have helped me:
1) I found 2 GPS intersections that I use when returning from XC that put me on a 45 degree intercept to either runway. Fortunately, the wind has always favored the one that I'm more familiar with and prefer to use at night.

2) I always ask for Bravo clearance returning home and usually it's granted. I stay at about 2500 until I spot known landmarks. I use the GPS waypoints to help with orientation. Later, I may play around with IFR approach modes to take advantage of the GPS approaches during night VFR operations.

3) A few months ago, I started pattern work about 45 mins before dusk and continued in the pattern well after dark. Takeoff and full-stop landings, repeat. There is a period of time where the light changes quickly so the taxi-back has to be done quickly and ready for the next circuit. You may have more time in the transition during warm months than cooler months - if I got that correctly, due to the refraction of light during warmer climates.

4) Although he'll probably say "no" next opportunity, I will talk with the airport owner about installing some blue lights. Blue lights help a LOT. You may consider doing the same.
 
FYI, talked to my CFI this morning. He chuckled and said "yes it was the dome light doofus".
 
Yeah, too much light can mess you up at night, especially when trying to pick out a small strip in the middle of a city. I don't think I've ever turned on a dome light in an airplane, don't even know if my aircraft have had one.

I stop using any light source other than the aircraft's red light in the runway environment. I usually don't look at instruments in the runway environment except the tachometer, if it is where I want it and my attitude is where I want it, I know roughly how fast I'm going.

The thought of taking a CFI or safety pilot and landing it dusk until full dark is a good one. You just need the sight picture. I bet this turns out to be a lot simpler than you think.
 
You want to find an airport you look for dark spots or just declare 'unfamiliar' and get a steer or fly the ILS/GPS procedure.
 
Might want to try flying on a night with more moonlight and gradually transition.
 
Everyone else has said plenty to help you out. My question is why are you pulling theorem to idle abeam the numbers? If you give yourself time for a reasonable base leg to look after you come out of the turn that might help too. My sense of this is that you allowed yourself to feel hurried.
 
Jeanie said:
Everyone else has said plenty to help you out. My question is why are you pulling theorem to idle abeam the numbers? If you give yourself time for a reasonable base leg to look after you come out of the turn that might help too. My sense of this is that you allowed yourself to feel hurried.
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Huh. I didn't mean to say that at all. I was taught primarily power off landings in the 152, but particularly at night I usually do stabilized power on approaches, which is what I did on Saturday.

I just misspoke. I should have said powered back rather than indicated that I pulled the power out completely.

Incidentally, it is possible I was a bit too close to the runway before I started my base leg, which would have helped cause the "hurried" problem.
 
Apparently I misread it.. Just re read it. The lighting in the aircraft, or the limiting of it that is, will help.

Anyway, even though it wasn't easy or great sounds like you handled it!
 
Before takeoff, set the heading bug to the runway heading, if you're staying in the pattern. Otherwise, set it while on downwind.
When turning base, the heading bug should be at the 3:00 or 9:00 position. If not, you have not made 90 degree turn. I sometimes make that error at night on my downwind to base turn.
Then once you're on base, if you cannot find the runway the heading bug gives you a clue of where to look, unless you have missed the turn by then. But at least it reminds you which way the runway points.
 
DogDaddy said:
Before takeoff, set the heading bug to the runway heading, if you're staying in the pattern. Otherwise, set it while on downwind.
When turning base, the heading bug should be at the 3:00 or 9:00 position. If not, you have not made 90 degree turn. I sometimes make that error at night on my downwind to base turn.
Then once you're on base, if you cannot find the runway the heading bug gives you a clue of where to look, unless you have missed the turn by then. But at least it reminds you which way the runway points.
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This aircraft doesn't have a heading bug. I'm happy that it has a DG ;)

I am used to using the DG for the same purpose, and I was doing what you described. I agree that it is a wonderful trick, and it is why one of my theories was that I had my DG set badly to the compass.
 
ChrisK said:
This aircraft doesn't have a heading bug. I'm happy that it has a DG ;)

I am used to using the DG for the same purpose, and I was doing what you described. I agree that it is a wonderful trick, and it is why one of my theories was that I had my DG set badly to the compass.
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Heh. It can be set completely wrong, if you just note the reciprocal heading on the DG during the downwind. ;)

(Not that this is a good practice, but just sayin'...) ;)
 
denverpilot said:
Heh. It can be set completely wrong, if you just note the reciprocal heading on the DG during the downwind. ;)

(Not that this is a good practice, but just sayin'...) ;)
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I'm not sure if my training aircraft had a heading bug...come to think of it, they didn't. But the DG did have marks outside the cardinal numbers for every 90 degrees. Take a note of the heading 90 degrees off before you make the base turn and keep turning until that number is at the top of the DG. If you were lined up on downwind, sychronizing your DG to the compass is irrelevant. You could (if you fancied it) when on downwind, change the heading to 000 (an arbitrary number) then turn left (for standard pattern) to heading 270 and then turn left to 180.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm not sure if my training aircraft had a heading bug...come to think of it, they didn't. But the DG did have marks outside the cardinal numbers for every 90 degrees. Take a note of the heading 90 degrees off before you make the base turn and keep turning until that number is at the top of the DG. If you were lined up on downwind, sychronizing your DG to the compass is irrelevant. You could (if you fancied it) when on downwind, change the heading to 000 (an arbitrary number) then turn left (for standard pattern) to heading 270 and then turn left to 180.
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denverpilot said:
Heh. It can be set completely wrong, if you just note the reciprocal heading on the DG during the downwind. ;)

(Not that this is a good practice, but just sayin'...) ;)
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That's ... what I ended up doing ... /sheepish

The first go-around was because I was too high for comfort, so I decided to extend and descend a bit more. The second one I got totally confused and decided the DG might be off. The 3rd one I just turned 90 degrees and kept a closer eye on my touchdown point.

I didn't want to admit it for the reasons Nate stated =)
 
I just ordered a rubber duckie with an aviation theme on Pilot Mall thanks to a PM from a POA member who knows I fly with a lucky duckie.

While there I saw a sale on a $10 can of oxygen that said it had a mask and 100 - 200 bursts.

Would taking some oxygen like that in the pattern help?

Also, if your headlamp is on your head (like mine is) perhaps it hits the windshield and reflects back? Can you secure it to another part of you so that it only points at the panel (such as your neck)?

Mine adjusts and you can aim it down. Mine is red and white
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I just ordered a rubber duckie with an aviation theme on Pilot Mall thanks to a PM from a POA member who knows I fly with a lucky duckie.
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That reminds me, I need to figure out where my Babes N Planes rubber duck (signed by Moxie, RIP) went to.

While there I saw a sale on a $10 can of oxygen that said it had a mask and 100 - 200 bursts.

Would taking some oxygen like that in the pattern help?
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In the mountains, sure. Below 3000 MSL, not so much and likely causing more harm as a distraction than good.

Also, if your headlamp is on your head (like mine is) perhaps it hits the windshield and reflects back? Can you secure it to another part of you so that it only points at the panel (such as your neck)?

Mine adjusts and you can aim it down. Mine is red and white
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There are chest mounted lights (don't know how well that would work on a woman) but I'd expect your arms would mask the light a lot. Head mounted should be good for illuminating what you're looking at but you might want to aim it so it hits where you're looking when you lower your eyes so it doesn't put much light on the windscreen. That would severely impact your ability to see outside. FWIW, you can also mount small flashlights to the side of your headset.

In general I don't think one should rely on flashlights (whether mounted to one's body or hand held) for viewing the instruments except in an emergency and in that case I'd be less concerned about outward visibility.
 
Although I hesitate to invite you to rely on the GPS, a Garmin 430 will give you a dashed line extension of the runway if you set it up right. Shouldn't rely on this but it is certainly helpful if/when you need it.

-Skip
 
Henning said:
If you are losing sight in the turns use your DG through 70* before you pick up your wing and look out to 10:00 and learn to count your turns.
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Please explain each of these details a little more or send me a PM. I dont understand the 70* and counting. the 10:00 i can visualize but not sure what this does for me.

I am going tomorrow to practice.
 
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