Night landing at unlit field...

I've done it once at Aero country. On my night currency flight with the CFI on board and 400 hours in my logbook.

1. only at a field you are very familiar with and have a good idea of what it looks like at night.

2. only if there are enough lights around that you can determine for sure in the dark hole where the runway is.

3. Plan on being high until you can see the runway with your landing light. Corollary: have enough runway that you can land much longer than usual.
 
I have been told that the dark parts are trees, the less-dark parts are runway...

...Edddd....

...Matt....
 
Tony.....


Lets see, try getting two buddies; One to turn on their landing light on the side of the field (beginning preferably), and another to turn on their car's lights at the ending. Hmm...wonder why that sounds slightly familiar?

I've heard a GPS helps too...
 
Here's the funny thing. It easier to land on a turf runway at night w/o runway lights than it is on a paved runway at night with no runway lights. Everything becomes shades of gray and the trees become darker than the grass.

Know the surrounding terrain and any obstacles.
Once you make out the runway, just do things like you normally would. The landing light will usually start to illuminate the runway at about 150 or 200 AGL. It's really not *that* bad. Bruce, come on. I know you want to do it with me once.

However, this is only good till about 45 minutes to an hour after sunset. I haven't landed later than that w/o runway lights.
 
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EdFred said:
However, this is only good till about 45 minutes to an hour after sunset. I haven't landed later than that w/o runway lights.
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Moon light will make a huge difference too. I have flown on full moon night where I could see the runway as good as in daylight. I would thing it trickier to land without a landing light that on an unlit strip. The hardest part about an unlit strip has got be just finding the darn thing in the first place.
 
Flyfishingpilot said:
Any tricks to landing at night without runway lights?
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1. Be familiar with the airport.

2. Don't just concentrate on where the landing light is shining.

3. Be familiar with the airport.

4. Expect to land long (runway length?)

5. Be familiar with the airport.

My airstrip is white gravel in the summer, snow surrounded by trees in the winter, so it is a bit easier to see thatn a unlit paved strip. My concern is always the mountains and hills surrounding it more than the little pointy obstacles down near the ground, though both can kill you just as dead.
 
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I like, really like, a big landing light in the backcountry type darkness. Two of them, with near and far aiming points is even better.
 
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For me, it's an emergency procedure only, and not one I'd practice, either. If I really had to do it (no other lit field options available within fuel range), I'd be trying to get the folks on the ground to line the runway with vehicles to light the runway surface with their headlights. At the very least, I'd want the approach and departure ends so lit, just so I know where the runway starts and ends, and to have a bit of idea of where the center and edges are. Beyond that, I can't imagine doing this by choice (i.e., engine still running and airplane not on fire).
 
Ron Levy said:
Beyond that, I can't imagine doing this by choice (i.e., engine still running and airplane not on fire).
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Done it more than once, and it's a complete non issue if you know the field you are going into. I would do it without hesitation one hundred times over.
 
It's a little bit difficult to rationalize this operation from a risk management perspective.

There's just something mis-wired in our brains, where we think "yeah, we could _probably_ do that just fine. In fact, we can _almost_ definitely do that without trouble. Let's try, and see."

The more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that pilots crash and die because we're too willing to downgrade from our usual 1 in 10000 risk to a 1 in 100 risk, for the lamest of reasons.
-harry
 
It's like jumping off the high dive for the first time. Then once you've done it, it's a non-issue.
 
EdFred said:
It's like jumping off the high dive for the first time. Then once you've done it, it's a non-issue.
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I believe the FAA refers to this attitude as "invulnerability." Personally, I think Harry's nailed it on the risk management issue -- what is so important about landing at that particular airport that it's worth the risk of landing short or going off the edge/end of the runway rather than landing where the runway is lit?

In any event, I've seen too many airports where you'd have nil chance of even finding the airport, no less finding the runway, unless the runway is lit. I wouldn't even try it at my home airport (Salisbury), except maybe on Runway 14 where the terminal ramp flood lights provide some illumination (which begs the question of what you mean by "unlit").
 
Re: THREAD CREEP Night takeoff at unlit field...

OK, how does the crowd feel about a takeoff from an unlit field? Say the Field is unattended, the PCL is not functional, the CTAF is silent, and you have backtaxied the full length to search for deer etc. And your landing light is working.

Would you do it?

Two options: paved runway with a centerline, and turf runway.

-Skip
 
Ok, I removed my comment 'cuz I deserved a dope slap, dumb comment....
 
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Ron Levy said:
I believe the FAA refers to this attitude as "invulnerability." Personally, I think Harry's nailed it on the risk management issue -- what is so important about landing at that particular airport that it's worth the risk of landing short or going off the edge/end of the runway rather than landing where the runway is lit?

In any event, I've seen too many airports where you'd have nil chance of even finding the airport, no less finding the runway, unless the runway is lit. I wouldn't even try it at my home airport (Salisbury), except maybe on Runway 14 where the terminal ramp flood lights provide some illumination (which begs the question of what you mean by "unlit").
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I believe the FAA is a bunch of namby-pamby momma's boys. There's nothing invulnerable about it. I know exactly where the field is, I know exactly where the runway is, I know exactly where the town lights are (about 100 yards south of the runway I have in my head now). I know exactly where the start of the runway is, and I know exactly where the end of the runway is. Then again I also have cut the grass for this particular airport a number of times, walked the runway and visually inspect it for the state a number of times, and lets see, oh yeah, submit the paperwork to the FAA for any NOTAMs for the airport and runway. If I go off the end of the runway or land short of the runway at my field, it has 100% NOTHING TO DO with it being unlit. Now, would I land at the field where I hangar my plane in the lower peninsula unlit? Probably not, there is way too much open area.

I find it interesting the ones that have never done it, and have no experience with it are saying "well, the FAA says..." Yeah, well the FAA also teaches the WRONG method for short field takeoff.
 
Re: THREAD CREEP Night takeoff at unlit field...

Skip Miller said:
OK, how does the crowd feel about a takeoff from an unlit field? Say the Field is unattended, the PCL is not functional, the CTAF is silent, and you have backtaxied the full length to search for deer etc. And your landing light is working.

Would you do it?

Two options: paved runway with a centerline, and turf runway.

-Skip
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It depends.
 
Risk management is the human activity which integrates recognition of risk, risk assessment, developing strategies to manage it, and mitigation of risk. The strategies include transferring the risk to another party, avoiding the risk, reducing the negative effect of the risk, and accepting some or all of the consequences of a particular risk.

There are many pilots who would never land at my airstrip, day or night, because of the risks. (gravel? Mountains? Heavens!) Nor do acro, fly in IMC, or in anything less than CAVU for that matter.

Fly into thunderstorms? Do it only in one of the few aircraft in the world that are capable of doing it safely. VFR into IMC? Don't do it unless you have an IFR "out." Fly mountains? Get training, look at the weather, density altitude, performance etc etc. Likewise don't fly into an unlit field at night unless you manage your risks properly.

I wouldn't dream of flying home in total darkness. But somewheres between civil twilight and blacker than a thousand midnights? Once or twice.

OTOH I'm not going to be waterskiing into a 300 foot gravel bar for landing unless my airplane is on fire. But I'm sure as hell not going to tell Wup Winn that he is being "lame" for doing so.
 
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its not for everyone. i certainly dont want anyone thinking that they can do it just because Ed and I were dumb enough to pull it off.
 
I could write a five page response to this thread. We could all go on for ages.

This can be made quite simple though:

Don't lie to yourself. The risk is higher. It's indeed more dangerous. Is REALLY it worth it?

That question only the pilot can answer.

If it is indeed truly worth it. If you are willing to increase the risk. Perhaps you are delivering some life saving medication..My tips would be:

1.) You better be damn familiar with the area.
2.) You will not see many things that kill you. Power lines, etc.
3.) Given at least *some* light by the remnants of dusk or the moon. Terrain, meaning trees, hills, etc. Will probably be a different shade then your landing surface.
4.) The touchdown area lit by vehicle headlights horizontally is extremely helpful.
5.) A vehicle at the end of the runway facing straight down it is also helpful for alignment.
6.) It's a lot less stupid to just wait until morning.

Results will vary. Cross your fingers.
 
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bqmassey said:
I'd probably give it a shot, with short-field takeoff technique.
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Keep in mind that many airports will have a completely different departure path versus approach path. I can go down a *lot* faster then I can go up. This means I am more comfortable landing at some airports then I am at taking off.

A good example of this is Gastons. It's pretty easy to make an approach there and land. The departure always has me more worried. I often (weight, temperature, airplane) cannot make the same deperature as I did approach without busting my ass into a ridge.

Just because you can land there without seeing anything..Does not mean you'll make a successful takeoff there without seeing anything as your ground/altitude profile will be completely different. It's also *MORE* difficult to see things on takeoff.
 
Tips not yet mentioned:

1. Fly a slow, forgiving airplane. I probably wouldn't land a Baron (or even a Bonanza) on a dark grass field.

2. Expect to abort and land at an alternate until you feel the mains touch (but you do that anyway).

3. If you can't see the picture at half-mile final, give it up (this accounts for both familiarity and something too many people think they have in spades: night vision)

And my 2c on risk management: I'm still trying to figure out how pilots become good pilots without ever taking risk. The low risk way to fly is in a multi and/or turbine, with x000 hrs of experience in all wx and in all forms of emergency situations. You can't experience low-risk PIC without taking a certain amount of risk to get there (like soloing, flying a single-engine aircraft over anything but the Salt Flats in CAVU, flying with Tony, ...).


The key is to understand the risk and manage it well. If you can realistically do that, you're ahead of the game, whether it's day or night.

Sorry if it sounds like I've had a bad day.
 
bqmassey said:
I'd probably give it a shot, with short-field takeoff technique.
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Keep in mind that many airports will have a completely different departure path versus approach path. I can go down a *lot* faster then I can go up. This means I am more comfortable landing at some airports then I am at taking off.

A good example of this is Gastons. It's pretty easy to make an approach there and land. The departure always has me more worried. I often (weight, temperature, airplane) cannot make the same departure as I did approach without busting my ass into a ridge.

Just because you can land there without seeing anything..Does not mean you'll make a successful takeoff there without seeing anything as your ground/altitude profile will be completely different. It's also *MORE* difficult to see things on takeoff.
 
A lot of us have done it, and most of us have been successful at it. That doesn't necessarily make it a "safe" operation, but there are a lot more associated factors that are specific to the strip, the airplane, the pilot, and the environment than we can put under a blanket statement of "it's a safe operation" or "it's an unsafe operation".

I would definitely say, however, that a pilot has to put in substantially more effort to MAKE it a safe operation than he does for a lot of other flying activities.

And IMO, risk management is the process of determining that an operation falls within an acceptable level of risk that stays fairly constant, rather than determining that the outcome of the particular operation is worth the increased risk.

Fly safe!

David
 
Flyfishingpilot said:
Thanks for the feedbacks... as for specifics:
Plane is a Cherokee 140/160
3120ft turf runway, 140 ft wide, reasonably maintained
No real lights nearby.
60 ft plus trees on either ends
as to why..hangar space is at a premium. This location is only $300/month. I would fly when the moon is visible...2 people (about 300lb total)
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Id have to fly it/see it in the daytime and near dusk, before I made the call. The fields I flew into at night did not have 60' trees at the ends.
 
foka4 said:
Tips not yet mentioned:

1. Fly a slow, forgiving airplane. I probably wouldn't land a Baron (or even a Bonanza) on a dark grass field.

2. Expect to abort and land at an alternate until you feel the mains touch (but you do that anyway).

3. If you can't see the picture at half-mile final, give it up (this accounts for both familiarity and something too many people think they have in spades: night vision)

And my 2c on risk management: I'm still trying to figure out how pilots become good pilots without ever taking risk. The low risk way to fly is in a multi and/or turbine, with x000 hrs of experience in all wx and in all forms of emergency situations. You can't experience low-risk PIC without taking a certain amount of risk to get there (like soloing, flying a single-engine aircraft over anything but the Salt Flats in CAVU, flying with Tony, ...).


The key is to understand the risk and manage it well. If you can realistically do that, you're ahead of the game, whether it's day or night.

Sorry if it sounds like I've had a bad day.
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Well said...

I don't want to be dangerous...but managing risk is what we do.
 
What gets me is that it sounds as if you're not looking to do this as a one- or two-time event, but rather to make it SOP at night in order to save a few $$$ or some time. That means that the additional risk is multiplied. For me, I don't particularly like that scenario. Plus, you're planning on a passenger. Are they cognizant of the additional risk? Are they well-informed enough to appropriately evaluate it for themselves? Leslie and I always like to play "how would this sound in front of the NTSB" if we have doubts. If you'd feel embarrassed (or dead), that's probably a hint that you should take the conservative choice.
 
EdFred said:
It's really not *that* bad. Bruce, come on. I know you want to do it with me once.

However, this is only good till about 45 minutes to an hour after sunset. I haven't landed later than that w/o runway lights.
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No, I don't. Somewhere in the basement there is a pic of a P3 that tried that. It wasn't pretty.

I have done it...I was bold once. Now I know better.

Now I'm well....er.....at least middle aged.
 
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60' trees might ice it for me.
 
Best secret: Don't do it. Some feel comfortable. I do not, and probably (hopefully) never will.
 
bbchien said:
I have done it...I was bold once. Now I know better.
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It would be interesting to correlate willingness to make a non-emergency night landing (that's a true night landing in the dark, not a 30-minutes-after-sundown pinkie landing) on an unlit runway with pilot age and total flight experience (both hours and years of flying).
 
Ron Levy said:
It would be interesting to correlate willingness to make a non-emergency night landing (that's a true night landing in the dark, not a 30-minutes-after-sundown pinkie landing) on an unlit runway with pilot age and total flight experience (both hours and years of flying).
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It is, perhaps, fortunate that the passage of time which robs one of their night vision, also often vests one with greater discretion.

Landing at night without lights: not for me.
 
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