Night Engine Failures

[Dave Siciliano]

We had this debate many times in the military; going in IMC or very dark night with no reachable airfields or obvious places to land, why would you go to best glide? If you impact something before you expect, you're going much faster than necessary. In the helicopters, we didn't come straight down when we couldn't see below us, we came in just above translational lift.

Everyone just goes to best glide; if the field you need to get to is below you, why? If you can't see and don't know where the obstacles are, minimum descent rate is what I'd trim to; Hennings' speed when I got low enough to hit something.

Best,

Dave

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Well I pretty much went direct on Friday night across NM and AZ. No problem, it was very 'soft' in appearance. Then on the way home during the day; Sunday, the first 1/4 was imc so that was no problem either.
It really only got difficult when I broke out and canceled, the next 300 miles was nasty gorges, mountains, trees, rocks. Good thing we couldn't see it Friday.
(Hard to tell from the WAC what the surface was really like.)
So I guess for this trip we just swallowed the risk and carried on. Next time I am going to scout the north route, although such a long trip its tempting to forget the wild deviations.

 

[Henning]

Well I pretty much went direct on Friday night across NM and AZ. No problem, it was very 'soft' in appearance. Then on the way home during the day; Sunday, the first 1/4 was imc so that was no problem either.
It really only got difficult when I broke out and canceled, the next 300 miles was nasty gorges, mountains, trees, rocks. Good thing we couldn't see it Friday.
(Hard to tell from the WAC what the surface was really like.)
So I guess for this trip we just swallowed the risk and carried on. Next time I am going to scout the north route, although such a long trip its tempting to forget the wild deviations.

I think with a well maintained aircraft, your odds are best taking the shortest route. Besides, in that area, there is no "friendly" routing.

 

[sdflyer]

Everyone just goes to best glide; if the field you need to get to is below you, why? If you can't see and don't know where the obstacles are, minimum descent rate is what I'd trim to; Hennings' speed when I got low enough to hit something.

Best glide method decreases chances of stalling airplane and increases controllability. Hennig's method increase chances of "favorable crash", but decrease controllability. May be the best way is just to combine two?

 

[Henning]

Best glide method decreases chances of stalling airplane and increases controllability. Hennig's method increase chances of "favorable crash", but decrease controllability. May be the best way is just to combine two?

There is no decrease in controllability, and a "favorable crash" is what it's all about. If you can't fly the plane safely at the bottom end of the envelope, you shouldn't be PIC.

 

[Trapper John]

There is no decrease in controllability, and a "favorable crash" is what it's all about. If you can't fly the plane safely at the bottom end of the envelope, you shouldn't be PIC.

But you've gotta admit that flying just above Vso, keeping the wings level with the pedals, at night, would be a major pucker factor situation!

Minimum energy's what's it's all about, but how many of us have trained for this in night conditions?


Trapper John

 

[Henning]

But you've gotta admit that flying just above Vso, keeping the wings level with the pedals, at night, would be a major pucker factor situation!

Minimum energy's what's it's all about, but how many of us have trained for this in night conditions?


Trapper John

I never said it wouldn't be a major pucker factor. Stuff like this is "where the rubber meets the road" so to speak. Like I tell people who question what I get paid when they look at what I do, "I don't get paid for what I do day to day, I get paid for what I know, and what I do on the rare occassion". IOW I get paid not to f- it up when it all goes horribly wrong. If you doubt your abilities to not f- it up when the path gets really skinny and the pressure is on, you have no business serving as PIC.

As for not training, whose freakin fault is that. Again, if you don't take charge and keep yourself on the ball, you have no business serving as PIC.

This is serious s**t, it's not a game, aviation will kill you, and more importantly, your passengers. It's your responsibility to assure that you are ready and able to meet any challenge to your responsibilities at all times.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

But you've gotta admit that flying just above Vso, keeping the wings level with the pedals, at night, would be a major pucker factor situation!

Minimum energy's what's it's all about, but how many of us have trained for this in night conditions?


Trapper John

I and all my students train MCA (and virtually everything else as well) at night, it's just common sense.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Everyone just goes to best glide; if the field you need to get to is below you, why? If you can't see and don't know where the obstacles are, minimum descent rate is what I'd trim to; Hennings' speed when I got low enough to hit something.

I'd start with best glide, mainly because with power off I can just grab the trim wheel and trim it all the way nose up and the plane holds best glide rock-solid. That gives me a chance to point it toward where I think I want to go, and then concentrate on trying to make the fan start again. Once that's not an option, and the mayday is called, and I'm not going to get it anywhere favorable, I'll pull it back to minimum sink. Slower forward, slower down, but still with enough energy remaining to do a little bit of maneuvering at the last minute once my landing light illuminates something.

 

[sba55]

I'd start with best glide, mainly because with power off I can just grab the trim wheel and trim it all the way nose up and the plane holds best glide rock-solid. That gives me a chance to point it toward where I think I want to go, and then concentrate on trying to make the fan start again. Once that's not an option, and the mayday is called, and I'm not going to get it anywhere favorable, I'll pull it back to minimum sink. Slower forward, slower down, but still with enough energy remaining to do a little bit of maneuvering at the last minute once my landing light illuminates something.

I was under the impression that maximum nose up trim generally produced minimum sink. I know that in my old Bonanza, best glide certainly wasn't achieved with anything close to max nose up trim. Is this just airplane dependent (the safety instructor at Osh last year made it seem like it wasn't)?

-Felix

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I was under the impression that maximum nose up trim generally produced minimum sink. I know that in my old Bonanza, best glide certainly wasn't achieved with anything close to max nose up trim. Is this just airplane dependent (the safety instructor at Osh last year made it seem like it wasn't)?

-Felix

Felix,

I've heard the same thing WRT full up trim. However, Vg in the 182 is 80 mph and trimming all the way nose up with power off nails it perfectly, and it stays there. Tony and I played around with it for a bit, and if you hold a bit more back elevator, you do get a lower sink rate at 75 mph.

 

[dmccormack]

I was under the impression that maximum nose up trim generally produced minimum sink. I know that in my old Bonanza, best glide certainly wasn't achieved with anything close to max nose up trim. Is this just airplane dependent (the safety instructor at Osh last year made it seem like it wasn't)?

-Felix

A certification expert may want to chime in, but older Bonanzas were under the since-replaced CAR certification.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...96e937e68f86256e51006929d4/$FILE/AC23-15A.pdf

 

[sdflyer]

There is no decrease in controllability, and a "favorable crash" is what it's all about. If you can't fly the plane safely at the bottom end of the envelope, you shouldn't be PIC.

There is a decrease controllability you fly stall + 5 kts And no - flying airplane unsafe doesn't not make you PIC.

 

[Henning]

I was under the impression that maximum nose up trim generally produced minimum sink. I know that in my old Bonanza, best glide certainly wasn't achieved with anything close to max nose up trim. Is this just airplane dependent (the safety instructor at Osh last year made it seem like it wasn't)?

-Felix

Not only aircraft dependent, but even load dependent in any single aircraft.

 

[Henning]

There is a decrease controllability you fly stall + 5 kts And no - flying airplane unsafe doesn't not make you PIC.

Where did I advocate Vs+5??? Please don't put incorrect words in my mouth. What I said was "stall horn +10" which for most planes is Vs+15 which also for most small single engine planes is going to work out between 1.2 & 1.3 Vso. Now, do you feel unsafe flying down final? Because that's normal speed to fly down final.

 

[sdflyer]

Where did I advocate Vs+5??? Please don't put incorrect words in my mouth. What I said was "stall horn +10" which for most planes is Vs+15 which also for most small single engine planes is going to work out between 1.2 & 1.3 Vso. Now, do you feel unsafe flying down final? Because that's normal speed to fly down final.

Ok my bad, so stall horn + 10?

In situation of engine failure best gliding speed will provide you with the best distance and the safe airspeed in one package. I guess we both understand the difference between 1.3Vso on final with the power available and without power off? I'm not sure if I ever made any of my power off 180 landings right at the spot flying stall horn + 10 kts instead of best gliding speed from the downding. I guess same principle apply here. We can break glide path with the power off on several segments. The first segment, we fly the best gliding speed and look for a good spot to put the airplane. The second one we actually adjust airspeed to land airplane. At this stage we can reasonable reduce airspeed when needed; however, unless we have extra altitude we never can increase it.

So tell me why fly stall horn+10kts when you can do the best gliding speed ? Why not to reduce to that speed just before the impact assuming that you neither have idea where you land nor see terrain in front of you?

 

[Henning]

Ok my bad, so stall horn + 10?

In situation of engine failure best gliding speed will provide you with the best distance and the safe airspeed in one package. I guess we both understand the difference between 1.3Vso on final with the power available and without power off? I'm not sure if I ever made any of my power off 180 landings right at the spot flying stall horn + 10 kts instead of best gliding speed from the downding. I guess same principle apply here. We can break glide path with the power off on several segments. The first segment, we fly the best gliding speed and look for a good spot to put the airplane. The second one we actually adjust airspeed to land airplane. At this stage we can reasonable reduce airspeed when needed; however, unless we have extra altitude we never can increase it.

So tell me why fly stall horn+10kts when you can do the best gliding speed ? Why not to reduce to that speed just before the impact assuming that you neither have idea where you land nor see terrain in front of you?

Because it's dark as hell out and you won't necessarily see what the hell you're hitting. When the cumulogranite jumps out in front of your face, you want to be going as slow as possible to give you the most time to react to it and get the plane in the best position to absorb the impact as slowly as possible. When you are in a black hole and rugged terrain, you don't know when the impact will occur, so you need to be ready for it immediately.

 

[sdflyer]

Because it's dark as hell out and you won't necessarily see what the hell you're hitting. When the cumulogranite jumps out in front of your face, you want to be going as slow as possible to give you the most time to react to it and get the plane in the best position to absorb the impact as slowly as possible. When you are in a black hole and rugged terrain, you don't know when the impact will occur, so you need to be ready for it immediately.

Just like you implied before to PIC, fairly prepared pilot should know approximate elevation he is flying over. In case of direct impact for example to the side mountains it doesn't matter whether pilot flies stall horn +10 or best gliding airspeed. Most likely he will be killed instantly. So I'd say there is reasonable margin where pilot still can fly with the best gilding speed and when he is getting ready for the impact.