Night Current For 1st Time / Questions

Sinistar

Sinistar

En-Route
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Display name:
Brad
Hi,

With daylight savings coming up I decided to do my night currency flights before the clock jumps ahead one hour and makes it more of a PITA. So I launched 65min after sunset and did 3 full stops. Then launched again and flew around for about 15 minutes and did one last landing. Landings were so-so, I could tell I was watching the headlight and thus not looking far enough out. Anyway, this leads to a few questions:

1.) We had a nearly full moon but it was totally overcast at 8000agl so pretty dark. I didn't hear anyone else out so I radioed my intentions and then I back taxied down the runway first to look for deer, coyotes and birds. Was this stupid? It was so dark and with trees off on the other side I just couldn't tell for sure from the taxiway if the runway was clear.

2.) Do the regs call out the 3 full stop landings having to be at the same airport? In other words could I have taken off at one and then landed full stop at another and did this 3 times and also be current?
 
61.57(b). Yes, it doesn’t mention that it has to be in the same airport. For my required night landings for the PPL, I did at 4 different airports


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3 landings to a full stop, doesn’t matter where. I went out for some night XC two weeks ago, did 2 landings at my destination, came back and did 3 more at my home airport, night current.


I don’t think back taxiing was stupid...can’t be too safe? I’d rather scare something off then than seeing on the roll. I’ve heard others will do a low approach at remote airports at night before landing with the same idea.
 
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Sinistar said:
1.) We had a nearly full moon but it was totally overcast at 8000agl so pretty dark. I didn't hear anyone else out so I radioed my intentions and then I back taxied down the runway first to look for deer, coyotes and birds. Was this stupid? It was so dark and with trees off on the other side I just couldn't tell for sure from the taxiway if the runway was clear.
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I wouldn't call it stupid and some may call it smart. I personally don't do it. I'd rather not spend a bunch of time on an uncontrolled runway in the dark. My feeling about wildlife... I hit a deer and demolished my Jeep. It was on a busy road. I'm not sure your taxi past will ensure an animal doesn't run across the runway while you are on departure roll. I'm pretty sure there are no relevant statistics to back up either side. So basically, whatever makes you feel better.

Sinistar said:
2.) Do the regs call out the 3 full stop landings having to be at the same airport? In other words could I have taken off at one and then landed full stop at another and did this 3 times and also be current?
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It can be at any airport.

Congrats on your continued night currency.
 
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It is three TAKEOFFS and three landings to a full stop. You have to log the night* takeoffs, too.

*Night, for this purpose, means one-hour after sunset until one-hour before sunrise.
 
if you use myflightbook.com,it records night currency,automatically.
 
Larry in TN said:
You have to log the night* takeoffs, too.
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Not true. It’s assumed that you had to takeoff in order to land, so that’s unnecessary.

Not every log book has a place for takeoffs anyway.
 
Larry in TN said:
It is three TAKEOFFS and three landings to a full stop. You have to log the night* takeoffs, too.

*Night, for this purpose, means one-hour after sunset until one-hour before sunrise.
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The takeoffs don't need to be at night. I can depart after work, sun comfortably in the sky, fly 3 hours and land well after dark. That counts as one of my three night currency landings.
 
Ryanb said:
Not true. It’s assumed that you had to takeoff in order to land, so that’s unnecessary.
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Both the takeoffs and the landings have to be during the specified time period. Unless the entire flight is during that time period, there is no way to show that both takeoff and landing were within it.

The "Night" column isn't enough because that criteria for "Night" flight time (from the end to the beginning of civil twilight) is different from requirement for night currency takeoff and landings.

The takeoff only counts if the pilot is the sole manipulator during the takeoff. If it is not logged, there is no evidence that it was so.

14 CFR 61.51(a)(2) puts the burden on the pilot to document the requirements have been met.

Not every log book has a place for takeoffs anyway.
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They all have "Remarks" columns.
 
Hank S said:
The takeoffs don't need to be at night. I can depart after work, sun comfortably in the sky, fly 3 hours and land well after dark. That counts as one of my three night currency landings.
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You may want to read the regulation again. 14 CFR 61.57(b).
 
Ryanb said:
Not true. It’s assumed that you had to takeoff in order to land, so that’s unnecessary.

Not every log book has a place for takeoffs anyway.
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I disagree. one can takeoff in the period one hour before sunset and land in the period one hour after. Or, one can takeoff during the period and land after the period expires. I done both cases. One has to do 3 takeoffs AND landings IN the required period to be current. The assumption you make isn’t always true.

To be specific, §61.51 says the following.

§61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.


And §61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command, subpart b says:

(b) Night takeoff and landing experience.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, unless within the preceding 90 days that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop during the period beginning 1 hour after sunset and ending 1 hour before sunrise, and—


I interpret these two rules together to mean that:

My required recent flight experience (§61.57)at night is the three takeoffs and landings to a full stop in the period between 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour after sunrise.

AND, §61.51(a)(2) says that I have to document the required recent flight experience.

Neither of these says I have to use a logbook column to do that. Although a logbook may not have a field to doucument takeoffs, you still must document the required recent flight experience.

What I do is enter something like this in the comment field if I’m specificly working on night currency.

“In accordance with §61.57(b), performed three TO&Ls to a full stop in the period between 1 hour after sunset and 1 hour prior to sunrise”

That’s clear and unambiguous regarding when the landings and takeoffs occurred and that both the takeoffs and landings occurred during the required period. It meets the requirements of §61.51.

If I’m flying Xcountry and land during the period, I might enter the comment that the landing was to a full stop and meets the requirement of §61.57(b).


While I hope the FAA never needs to look at my logbook, I’m pretty sure that the above language in the comment field makes it completely clear about my currency status.


As an aside, I tend to do my night currency at my home field KSJC, a class C airport with 2 10,000 ft runways. Utterly trivial to get the required 3 TOs & Ls in. I just tell the tower I’m working on night currency and request stop and goes. Takeoff, fly the pattern, land, stop for a moment, reconfigure, and do it again. No need to taxi back or anything. I just stop where at the end of the landing rollout and start my takeoff from that point. Sometimes for the jet traffic, they’ll have me takeoff on 30L, fly right traffic for 30R and land 30R, then takeoff, fly left traffic for 30L and land on the left. I can fly nice tight patterns, and get the whole flight from engine start to engine off over with the three TO & Ls in about 18-24 minutes.


[Edit]Looks like Larry beat me to it...

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Ryanb said:
Not true. It’s assumed that you had to takeoff in order to land, so that’s unnecessary.

Not every log book has a place for takeoffs anyway.
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You don't have to takeoff at night in order to land at night.
 
You need both takeoffs and landings. They don't have to occur on the same flight. Many times I'll get a early morning takeoff that will count, but then the landing will be daylight. Even more often I will get a day takeoff and then a night landing. As long as you have 3 of each, you are good to go. 2 night takeoffs and 3 night landings doesn't cut it.
 
The answer to this question can be found in the FARs. It is free and downloadable. If you have Foreflight it can be downloaded into your documents. This should not even have to be discussed or debated, or interpreted.
 
Larry in TN said:
Both the takeoffs and the landings have to be during the specified time period. Unless the entire flight is during that time period, there is no way to show that both takeoff and landing were within it.

The "Night" column isn't enough because that criteria for "Night" flight time (from the end to the beginning of civil twilight) is different from requirement for night currency takeoff and landings.

The takeoff only counts if the pilot is the sole manipulator during the takeoff. If it is not logged, there is no evidence that it was so.

14 CFR 61.51(a)(2) puts the burden on the pilot to document the requirements have been met.


They all have "Remarks" columns.
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Any one that questioned me about night currency with that much detail would be told to **** off.
 
I haven't done any night landings as a ppl (I'm at 140 hrs now). I've been meaning to get up early one day and go get current. My thinking is if something doesn't feel right I'll stay in the air til light. I don't anticipate any issues but as mentioned a few posts above, can't be too safe. Early on, I had trouble learning to land. On the day they finally "clicked" I made 13 unassisted landings, 6 of which were at night. I think I only have a few more night landings after that and they were all with my cfi beside me (and months ago).
 
I stand corrected. I suppose my thought on that was for 90 day currency during the Daytime.
 
A while back I shot from IAD down to HEF to do some landings (HEF's tower was closed). It started to fog up at HEF so I flew back to IAD. It was slow there so I stopped on the runway and asked if I could take off again. Did so, climbed up to 1000' chopped the power and came back down on the runway. Three takeoffs and landings to a full stop. I always wanted to do one on each runway (there were only three at the time). I also wanted to land at each of the primary class B (IAD/DCA/BWI) on one night currency trip as well but alas, can't get into DCA anymore.
 
The night take offs and landings dont even have to be on the same flight. Assuming you had a crazy schedule, you could do them on six different flight. Tracking that would be harder, something like foreflight will do it automatically.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
In that case I would just report my hours. For the wreck to be bad enough they wanted to see logbooks I would most likely not be here to care.
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The FAA will talk to you on much less serious incidents and accidents. A gear-up landing, for example. An engine failure. A runway incursion. An overrun. A deer strike. In any such case, one of the first things they will do is verify your qualifications for the flight which will include currency.
 
Larry in TN said:
The FAA will talk to you on much less serious incidents and accidents. A gear-up landing, for example. An engine failure. A runway incursion. An overrun. A deer strike. In any such case, one of the first things they will do is verify your qualifications for the flight which will include currency.
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I have crashed two airplanes. The FAA never looked at my logbook. I filled out a time and currency form then submitted it. For one accident no one physically arrived to look at the aircraft or talk to me. Everything was on the phone or via email/fax. I’m pretty sure I would have to kill myself or someone else to actually get someone to show up.
 
When I had my accident the FAA and the insurance company wanted the last page of my log book showing the total hours and the page with my BFR sign off and a copy of my certificates. I scanned them in and emailed the PDFs. They also wanted the page of the maintenance records showing the annual.
 
flyingron said:
When I had my accident the FAA and the insurance company wanted the last page of my log book showing the total hours and the page with my BFR sign off and a copy of my certificates. I scanned them in and emailed the PDFs. They also wanted the page of the maintenance records showing the annual.
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I think it really depends on what kind of accident and the inspector. I’m my case one was a mechanical failure resulting in off airport landing. The other one was not mechanical but I didn’t play games with the feds. It was very easy to understand what was going on. My statement to the feds was basically here’s what happened, this is how I screwed up, here are the human factors and errors in judgment that I allowed to influence the operation, this is what I learned from the incident and this is my plan to prevent this from happening in the future. No certificate action and told to be a good boy in the future and appreciation of my attitude/honesty. Most of the ops guys are good people but there are some that make up for the good ones. The one time I ****ed up I just fessed up and let the chips fall where they fall. Worked out ok. Could have easily been different.
 
MauleSkinner said:
So why log anything?
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I’m not an anarchist so I make the effort to keep a reasonable log with my currency requirements. I don’t add columns to the log book anymore. So if you go digging for night currency you won’t see a specific entry for night takeoffs because there’s no column for the data.

Why be so literal?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I’m not an anarchist so I make the effort to keep a reasonable log with my currency requirements. I don’t add columns to the log book anymore. So if you go digging for night currency you won’t see a specific entry for night takeoffs because there’s no column for the data.

Why be so literal?
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Because I don't like deciphering coded sentences.
 
If you never have passengers at night I guess it doesn't matter if you keep accurate flight logs or not.

What if you got ramp checked by the feds right after landing at night with a passenger? Anybody know what happens in that case if you aren't current?
 
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