Newbie here - dreaming - a few questions

[2Airtime2]

I'm not a pilot yet but recently got the bug (bad). My father was a private pilot but hasn't flown since 1976. My maternal grandfather was a world class aerobatic pilot, builder, racer, aero mechanic, and I won't say world class designer because I don't know for sure. I do know he took self designed plans from his drafting table out to his hanger and built then flew his own designs.

If I persue the license I would want my own plane. For now I'm going to say my purchase price limit will be $30k. I've even been looking at houses with acreage suitable for a private grass strip (like I say, I've got it bad).

I'm intrigued by STOL planes but have looked (online only) at 172's, Piper Cherokees, and Beech's similar to the Cherokee. I've never worked as a mechanic but am very mechanically inclined (probably got that from Grandfather). I recently rebuilt a '79 Camaro Z-28 cutting out body and frame rust and welding in patches. I did all the engine assembly but had the machine shop do the heads and other checks. Re-built the suspension, etc., etc., etc.

My son totaled his '98 Accord a few yrs ago. I took the settlement $ and rebuilt it to new condition. Hood, front fenders, core support, raditor, condenser, front lights, etc., etc., etc. I have skills.:wink2: I didn't paint the Honda but I did paint the Z-28.

If I want to do my own annuals, maintenance, and repairs do I need to focus on experimental only or as the plane owner could I do a major engine overhaul on a Piper? I think I read somewhere that there are experimental planes and certified planes, is that right with different rules for each?

How hard is it to get certified to do the overhauls myself? It would pain me to spend $25k on an engine overhaul on a $15k airplane.

If the annual shows good compression and the engine is not using much oil do I even have to do overhauls? I can't imagine dropping more than one cylinder at a time. If it's dropped pre-flight, you simply cancel that flight and do the overhaul at that time. If you drop a cylinder and lose power during flight you still have enough power so you land somewhere.

Is my thinking flawed? Where? Who has lost partial power during flight? How far were you able to go?

This could get interesting but I'm just trying to learn.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Welcome to Pilots of America.

There will be some mechanics along in a short while to answer your questions in detail. For the overview, most airplanes and nearly all older ones in the market today are "certificated." The rest are "experimental." A certificated aircraft is the one with all the rules applied. It must have an annual inspection by a certificated mechanic and signed off by an IA. The mechanic is the only one who can sign off the overhaul, too.

So, the question comes down to whether you can do the work yourself. The answer is that if you arrange with your mechanic to do the work and he does the inspection and the sign-off, then that would be OK. But you and he keep in mind that it is HIS mechanic's license on the line if you come into any grief.

I think it takes a couple of years to get a mechanic's license. I've heard it is harder than getting a pilot's license.

The other choice is to take that certificated aircraft out of certification and have it become an experimental aircraft. Then you can be the mechanic on it and do whatever sign-offs. But there are rules governing that and I am not informed enough to tell you what they are.

And, lastly, you can start with an aircraft that is already experimental. Once again, check with the experts on the rules.

 

[Challenged]

Hi, and welcome! To work on certified aircraft (those typically manufactured by Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft, Mooney, etc...) you'll need to fulfill the following requirements (https://www.faa.gov/mechanics/become/basic/)

1. You must be
   • at least 18 years old;
   • able to read, write, speak, and understand English.
2. You must get 18 months of practical experience with either power plants or airframes, or 30 months of practical experience working on both at the same time. As an alternative to this experience requirement, you can graduate from an FAA-Approved Aviation Maintenance Technician School.
3. You must pass three types of tests;
   • a written examination
   • an oral test
   • a practical test

I'm sure someone else can speak to what's required to work on Experimentals. I'm not sure offhand, as I've only owned certified planes.

Sometimes (most of the time?) an engine will give you some indication that it's having issues. So if you're doing regular maintenance and oil analysis, etc... you should be in good shape to go well beyond the recommend Time Between Overhaul (TBO). I'm at the top of my TBO on my engine, but it doesn't have any real issues to speak of, so I'm fine going beyond that number.

 

[RotorDude]

Some engine failure modes are of the "sudden and catastrophic" variety, where (for example) a valve or rod breaks and causes extensive damage to the entire engine, not just its own cylinder. Or the crankshaft can break, or other common parts. In general, you cannot count on engine failures to be confined to one cylinder, or to give you enough time to land normally. Many engine failures end up with the engine stopping fairly quickly, so you become a glider (in a single).

 

[2Airtime2]

Thanks for the replies, keep'em coming.

It would not hurt my feelings to start with something similar to a Zenith 701/750.

Somebody tell me the process to take a certified plane to experimental status please. Just going from the ads, there are a few very nice 60's Piper Cherokee 140's out there. One with 1500 total hours for $15k. That one seems like a very good deal. I'm sure it will be gone when I'm ready to buy.

I guess I know the answer to this but can someone verify.

Lots of 50 yr old planes out there are still very safe to fly? Metal wing spars don't age? Fatigue? Is the integrity of major systems (wings in particular) inspected yearly? How do you know if a wing spar has a fracture? I doubt if the aluminum skin or fabric is removed to inspect those things????

 

[Ravioli]

To do all of the maintenance on Experimental you must hold the Repairmen's Certificate for that EXACT plane OR hold an A&P Certificate.

A&P was covered in post #3

Repairman Certificate can be issued if you build the aircraft yourself OR take a course. I believe the course option is available only for E-LSA (Exp Light Sport Aircraft) not for E-AB (Exp Amateur Built)

Other limitations on what can be done to an E-LSA but there are some cool ones out there.

 

[JoeSelch]

To do all of the maintenance on Experimental you must hold the Repairmen's Certificate for that EXACT plane OR hold an A&P Certificate.

A&P was covered in post #3

Repairman Certificate can be issued if you build the aircraft yourself OR take a course. I believe the course option is available only for E-LSA (Exp Light Sport Aircraft) not for E-AB (Exp Amateur Built)

Other limitations on what can be done to an E-LSA but there are some cool ones out there.

It is NOT true that one must either hold the Repairman's Cert or be an A&P to do all of the maintenance on an Experimental-AB aircraft. Your statement is true only in regards to the condition inspection which must be completed annually.

 

[docmirror]

It would not hurt my feelings to start with something similar to a Zenith 701/750.

Somebody tell me the process to take a certified plane to experimental status please. Just going from the ads, there are a few very nice 60's Piper Cherokee 140's out there. One with 1500 total hours for $15k. That one seems like a very good deal. I'm sure it will be gone when I'm ready to buy.

I guess I know the answer to this but can someone verify.

Lots of 50 yr old planes out there are still very safe to fly? Metal wing spars don't age? Fatigue? Is the integrity of major systems (wings in particular) inspected yearly? How do you know if a wing spar has a fracture? I doubt if the aluminum skin or fabric is removed to inspect those things????

Some of your questions would take a long time to answer properly, but we can get you started.

The Zenith is an excellent starting platform for STOL aircraft, and it's Experimental, so with the right paperwork you can work on it and sign it off yourself. Of course, if you build it from scratch, you can work on it and sign it off for flight yourself(after initial inspection from the FAA guy). Another path that I use is to work on your plane under DIRECT supervision of an airframe and powerplant mechanic that is certified. This can be done for any Cessna, Piper, Beech, etc. The A&P will inspect and sign off your work to return the airplane to flight status.

The aging aircraft population is either a huge problem that needs immediate attention(regulators), or it's not much of a problem, and the old planes which pass inspection are perfectly fine to fly(owners of old planes). I own a 65 year old Beech product that I wouldn't hesitate to take on 1000 mile trips, with my family on board. Spars are inspected each year, and for planes which show a tendency to crack, or corrode, they get extra attention in the form of an Airworthiness Directive. Or course, nothing is 100% foolproof, and planes do come apart on rare occasions. However, the pilot is responsible for ~85% of the accidents in the air, with engine or airframe failure less than about 15% of accidents, so the probability is that the pilot will fail long before anything on a well maintained plane.

There are inspection ports on all airframes that allow for critical parts to be inspected. This is true of metal, fabric and wood, and also plastic planes. However, plastic planes have a different kind of failure mode that makes it harder to detect damaged areas, but it can be done.

 

[N801BH]

Thanks for the replies, keep'em coming.

It would not hurt my feelings to start with something similar to a Zenith 701/750.

Somebody tell me the process to take a certified plane to experimental status please. Just going from the ads, there are a few very nice 60's Piper Cherokee 140's out there. One with 1500 total hours for $15k. That one seems like a very good deal. I'm sure it will be gone when I'm ready to buy.

I guess I know the answer to this but can someone verify.

Lots of 50 yr old planes out there are still very safe to fly? Metal wing spars don't age? Fatigue? Is the integrity of major systems (wings in particular) inspected yearly? How do you know if a wing spar has a fracture? I doubt if the aluminum skin or fabric is removed to inspect those things????

Welcome to POA......


Ps... You would have to be half crazy to consider a Zenith STOL...


Signed : Ben ( half crazy) Haas..

 

[James331]

Thanks for the replies, keep'em coming.

It would not hurt my feelings to start with something similar to a Zenith 701/750.

Somebody tell me the process to take a certified plane to experimental status please. Just going from the ads, there are a few very nice 60's Piper Cherokee 140's out there. One with 1500 total hours for $15k. That one seems like a very good deal. I'm sure it will be gone when I'm ready to buy.

I guess I know the answer to this but can someone verify.

Lots of 50 yr old planes out there are still very safe to fly? Metal wing spars don't age? Fatigue? Is the integrity of major systems (wings in particular) inspected yearly? How do you know if a wing spar has a fracture? I doubt if the aluminum skin or fabric is removed to inspect those things????

Smart move with the zenith.

Yes old planes are safe to fly, aircraft are maintained to a level astronomically higher than cars, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you're looking for a STOL plane a zenith is way better than a 172, PA28, etc.

 

[bnt83]

I'm not a pilot yet but recently got the bug (bad). My father was a private pilot but hasn't flown since 1976. My maternal grandfather was a world class aerobatic pilot, builder, racer, aero mechanic, and I won't say world class designer because I don't know for sure. I do know he took self designed plans from his drafting table out to his hanger and built then flew his own designs.

If I persue the license I would want my own plane. For now I'm going to say my purchase price limit will be $30k. I've even been looking at houses with acreage suitable for a private grass strip (like I say, I've got it bad).

I'm intrigued by STOL planes but have looked (online only) at 172's, Piper Cherokees, and Beech's similar to the Cherokee. I've never worked as a mechanic but am very mechanically inclined (probably got that from Grandfather). I recently rebuilt a '79 Camaro Z-28 cutting out body and frame rust and welding in patches. I did all the engine assembly but had the machine shop do the heads and other checks. Re-built the suspension, etc., etc., etc.

My son totaled his '98 Accord a few yrs ago. I took the settlement $ and rebuilt it to new condition. Hood, front fenders, core support, raditor, condenser, front lights, etc., etc., etc. I have skills.:wink2: I didn't paint the Honda but I did paint the Z-28.

If I want to do my own annuals, maintenance, and repairs do I need to focus on experimental only or as the plane owner could I do a major engine overhaul on a Piper? I think I read somewhere that there are experimental planes and certified planes, is that right with different rules for each?

How hard is it to get certified to do the overhauls myself? It would pain me to spend $25k on an engine overhaul on a $15k airplane.

If the annual shows good compression and the engine is not using much oil do I even have to do overhauls? I can't imagine dropping more than one cylinder at a time. If it's dropped pre-flight, you simply cancel that flight and do the overhaul at that time. If you drop a cylinder and lose power during flight you still have enough power so you land somewhere.

Is my thinking flawed? Where? Who has lost partial power during flight? How far were you able to go?

This could get interesting but I'm just trying to learn.

I've been an aircraft mechanic for about 12 years, there really isn't a whole lot of reasons to buy single engine piston, unpressurized simple aircraft that are certified, other than the buy-in price for 45< year old certified is usually pretty low.

Experimentals can vary greatly in quality. Even certified aircraft have varying quality (watch rows of rivets, minimum edge distances violated, wiring protection or lack of it etc)

I feel the biggest thing you can save on experimentals is labor. That is if you don't have a family and a pile of kids that keep you from working on the airplane. A friendly A&P can save you $ on certified too but there has to be trust and a good working relationship for it to work.

 

[petrolero]

Airplanes very very seldom have a structural failure in flight outside of thunderstorms. Only a very reckless pilot of a small plane would fly into one on purpose. If one did come apart it is usually a weird one-off and I don't know of any that happened just due to a spar wearing out.

Even the infamous (and recent) Cessna 210 spar AD was precipitated by one aircraft in Australia that was flown in a very atypical manner. Since that AD, every certified 210 in America has been or soon will be checked and no such cracks have been found. It's a one-off.

Vastly more common is a pilot making a bad decision. Most probable causes include pilot failure of some sort.

Sounds like you may be building a plane at some point in your future. There are lots of guys on here who've done that. I don't know if they'd recommend flying and/or owning for a while first or what, but lots of info available here.

 

[frfly172]

Welcome to the forum,don't think you could go wrong with the zenith stool aircraft. Good luck on your endeavors.

 

[Ravioli]

It is NOT true that one must either hold the Repairman's Cert or be an A&P to do all of the maintenance on an Experimental-AB aircraft. Your statement is true only in regards to the condition inspection which must be completed annually.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[flyingron]

To do all of the maintenance on Experimental you must hold the Repairmen's Certificate for that EXACT plane OR hold an A&P Certificate.

There's no requirement for a repairman's (or any other sort of) certificate to do ANY maintenance on an experimental (amateur built). All the repairman's certificate gets you is the ability to do the condition INSPECTION. An inspection (condition or annual) is NOT maintenance.

 

[Gsxrpilot]

Somebody tell me the process to take a certified plane to experimental status please. Just going from the ads, there are a few very nice 60's Piper Cherokee 140's out there. One with 1500 total hours for $15k. That one seems like a very good deal. I'm sure it will be gone when I'm ready to buy.

I don't think anyone answered this directly, but it really can't be done. The only way to have an experimental that you can use as a normal airplane, take friends/family flying, travel, etc. is to build one yourself, or buy an experimental that someone else has built. Certificated airplanes such as a Cherokee when converted to experimental become very restricted, such as test flights only, no passengers, no controlled airspace, etc.

 

[2Airtime2]

Next question. What are you allowed to do to your own plane if it's a certified plane? Can you do your own oil changes? Replace tires? Brakes? Engine hoses?

I suspect the answer to the next question is no. Can you pull your engine and replace it with a like engine in good condition? If you are not allowed to do anything at all I will definitely go the experimental route.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

With your background you should have a great time doing some aircraft rebuilding. The two fellows who rebuilt two Taylorcrafts that I've owned were first class auto mechanics , one a retired shop teacher. They did really fine work and had an AI check their work as they went. Both t crafts were trophy winners when they finished. Both were private pilots and flew often but were not instrument rated. ( their attention to detail, paint, instrument panel, engine , etc. Was fantastic. ) go for it! You can see one of the aircraft they did by googling taylorcraft fun. A girl explains the plane in a video.

 

[GlennAB1]

The pilot is responsible for ~85% of the accidents in the air, with engine or airframe failure less than about 15% of accidents

My research a few years ago came up with; just < 50% of fatal aircraft accidents were due to pilot error. Just > 5% were due to mechanical errors/problems. The remaining % were due to a number of reasons such as; ATC errors, weather, fueling errors, etc.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

If flying off your own strip, you might consider a Socata Rallye (not an experimental). Great STOL planes and inexpensive if you can find one. How much weight will you be hauling? That will determine the minimum horsepower you want to look for.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Here are some comments about the Rallye from another forum that might make you curious (I own a 180HP version). They are variously called the "tin parachute" or "farmer's airplane." If you are serious about your own strip, it's worth considering…. They were responding to a poster who complained that the forward slats came out during the round out and flare and spoiled his landings (he was clearly too fast on approach).

Rallye posts from Flyer Forum:

The rallye was built as a result of a design competition.The criteria was survivable impact in emergency. (Before the days of ballistic shutes).

The slats were part of this criteria, together with massive elevator and an undercarriage designed to collapse progressively to absorb impact. It is said that if you get into trouble ( for instance in IMC ) you just chop the throttle pull full up and come down at a speed that will be survivable. If I remember correctly it was supposed that it would hit the ground at no more than 4 G with a forward speed of approx 40 mph whereupon the U/C would detach and absorb the impact.

The Rallye won the comp and was put into production with a government grant as a result.

I once landed one 16ft beyond a 4 ft hedge, mind you it did knock the tial cone off.
Trying to keep my total of takeoffs and landings equal
hatzflyer
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by beelzebub » 06 Feb 2012 23:07
Hatz is pretty much correct in all aspects of his post, and I can confirm that with the power pulled off and the stick right back, a Rallye descends with a high AoA under full control. It will not drop a wing or do anything horrid. It is also descending much slower than a Cirrus under a parachute...

The Rallye is a child of the late 50's, and I guess that at that time the slat was the best solution to the original design brief. Had it been designed 20 years later a different solution may have been adopted.

I broadly agree with LT's first point, but as for the second I think you may be focusing on the wrong end of the flight regime. The slats don't add much to the landing performance, but are much more effective under power/climbout than landing. I have personally never flown any other aircraft that offers the high AoA security of a Rallye. I agree that a larger wing/different section etc could deliver a comparable low stall speed, but the high AoA performance and safety under power is staggering - there is a party trick whereby the aircraft can be induced to leap into the air at about 40 knots and climb away at an attitude that would be suicidal in anything comparable (Note* only appropriate to larger engined Rallyes!).

I will happily "abuse" the Rallye in ways that I wouldn't even dream of doing in a C182, Maule, Super Cub or even a Pawnee as it would end very badly in any of those types.

The slats should open on a normal approach at sensible speeds. If they do not then you are either too fast, or have the dreaded sticky slat disease. The slat rollers should not be lubricated as it causes them to jam or bind, and the slat damper can also be sticky preventing smooth operation.

Mark. (Rallye 180 owner)
Quidvis recte factum, quamvis humile praeclarum.

beelzebub
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by wessex boy » 07 Feb 2012 07:58
Just to add to Mark's Post, the slats' deployment is more a function of angle of attack than speed, and as a Tyro Rallye Flyer the first time you do approach a bit quick and flare they scare the bejesus out of you as they deploy with a bang!

And coming from a Warrior and used to a bit of Morley, the additional bit of lift from the Slats offsets the much higher rate of sink you can achieve in a Rallye if you are on the back of the drag-curve and chop the power a little early.....

Wikepedia link (not all that informative):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOCATA_Rallye_family

 

[2Airtime2]

If flying off your own strip, you might consider a Socata Rallye (not an experimental). Great STOL planes and inexpensive if you can find one. How much weight will you be hauling? That will determine the minimum horsepower you want to look for.

The own strip thing is really dreaming. There's nothing close enough to me and I can't relocate my established HVAC business (gotta stay near my customers). The experimental thing sounds good but I'm leaving all options open. I found some stuff on some Zenith structural failures that alarms me. If I buy a plane it will likely live at one of 2 places. A airport 20 minutes from my house with fbo and a 5000' runway. No hangers avail. but tiedowns are reasonable at only $35 per month. The other is a private 2500' paved strip with a few hangers (none avail now) and $25 per mo. tiedowns. It's 30-35 minutes from my house.

I looked briefly at the Socata. I like it. There's a different model on Trade A Plane now that's under $20k. Just looked at it for a second but the price is right (purchase price anyway).

Everybody feel free to recommend stuff for me to look at. Looks like outdoor storage so just recommend metal skin please.

Dreaming is fun. I'm glad I found this place.

If anybody around NC wants to fly in to Louisburg for some free gas on me in exchange for a joyride let me know.

 

[docmirror]

Most likely the Zenith structural failures were in the early 600 series low wing model. It had a noted design flaw which has been corrected, and resolved(someone with more knowledge of the 600 will elaborate).

The 750 is a very robust design. I seriously doubt a well constructed 750 will come apart with normal off field type use.

As for what you can do to a certificated plane yourself, there is a list of things that you are allowed to do unsupervised as a private pilot. Oil and filter changes, tire, tube and brake linings, lamps and bulbs, battery service and repl, basic interior repairs to non-structural stuff, paint and trim on non-flight controls and stuff like that. Engine hoses no, those have to be done under supervision or by an A&P.

An owner/operator can exchange their old engine with a new/used/rebuilt engine of the same type and suffix(sometimes upgrade also) under direct supervision of an A&P. The A&P will be required to sign the log book returning the aircraft to service.

 

[mkosmo]

Next question. What are you allowed to do to your own plane if it's a certified plane? Can you do your own oil changes? Replace tires? Brakes? Engine hoses?

I suspect the answer to the next question is no. Can you pull your engine and replace it with a like engine in good condition? If you are not allowed to do anything at all I will definitely go the experimental route.

All of the above, actually, so long as you have at least a private pilot certificate. Just no hydraulic lines... Here's a list and explanation: http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/PIC-archive/Aircraft-Ownership/Preventive-Maintenance