New Traffic Pattern Advisory Circular

catmandu said:
Exactly. Pattern entry should always be made at pattern altitude. You just have to decide ahead of time where you want to enter. If it is via midfield flyover, you do that at pattern altitude. If it is from the 45, you do the midfield leg above pattern altitude, then descent to pattern altitude for your entry point, the 45.
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Yep.
 
jesse said:
I teach and fly a crosswind entry - though typically on the departure end of the runway and not midfield. Some thread probably about 12 years ago on this forum convinced me of it.
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This is what my CFI taught me as well. Curious how you call this approach to other traffic.
 
I'm surprised no one addresses the problem with flying 500 feet above TPA; turbine aircraft fly a traffic pattern at that altitude! That is the problem I have with the overfly 500+ TPA and circle, plus now you may be descending onto someone that is already on the 45.

The midfield crossover puts the entire traffic pattern in your windshield and in my opinion gives you the best chance of seeing other traffic. It also puts you above departing traffic, and below and inside of any fast movers in the turbine pattern.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I'm surprised no one addresses the problem with flying 500 feet above TPA; turbine aircraft fly a traffic pattern at that altitude!
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Well, that and... if you overfly and to a descending teardrop a couple miles out, what about the poor sap headed in for HIS 45 entry at pattern altitude? Whichever way you do it has risk. Keep your eyes open. Radio calls are nice, but a lot of times people are in WAY different positions than their radio calls would seem to indicate.
 
Cluemeister said:
This is what my CFI taught me as well. Curious how you call this approach to other traffic.
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"Podunk traffic, Comanche xxxx 5 miles (direction) expect crosswind entry departure end of (active runway).

"Podunk traffic, Comanche xxxx entering crosswind runway xx, departure end of (active runway), I have (whatever traffic).

When appropriate, call the crosswind to downwind turn.
 
jesse said:
I teach and fly a crosswind entry - though typically on the departure end of the runway and not midfield. Some thread probably about 12 years ago on this forum convinced me of it.
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Cluemeister said:
This is what my CFI taught me as well. Curious how you call this approach to other traffic.
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Me to? Question??? Is this approach approved by FAA?
 
NoHeat said:
I’m just curious about this part:

Parachute Operations.
12.5.1 All activities are normally conducted under a NOTAM noting the location, altitudes, and time or duration of jump operations.​

I don’t recall ever seeing such a NOTAM. Are they included in a Foreflifgt briefing, for a route that passes nearby ?
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Ive seen them in NOTAMS on Foreflight for KNJK (SE Cali), indicating jumpers in vicinity of the IPL VORTAC. None listed this morning though.
 
Even with a 12-inch N-Number, it can't be read until the separation is dangerously close. And many aircraft have three-inch-high numbers.

Colors work a bit better, but only the base color of the aircraft. If the plane is white with blue trim, that blue trim isn't going to be discernible until, again, the airplane gets dangerously close.

I live about 3/4th of a mile away and ~600 feet below the downwind leg of my home field. I watch planes on downwind all the time. Without binoculars, I certainly can't make out the trim colors.

So while the base color of the airplane might be a better discriminator, too many planes are white for color to be a formal discriminator. I'm sure the FAA's recommendation to use N-Number is founded in the FCC station identification requirements.

In my case, I use "Fly Baby 848" as the call sign most of the time, but after entry, often shorten it to just "Fly Baby." I've got the only one within an hour's flight time....

Ron Wanttaja
 
I’m at TPA just when I turn crosswind when I do pattern work. Traffic is a secondary thought at that location. Maybe I need to rethink.

I would rather know what plane is in the pattern (color and type), so I can positively ID the caller, and be able to know if what I’m seeing is a NORDO and need to keep looking for a second plane (or more depending on how crazy the traffic is).

Tail number is not useful, except for investigation purposes. Just another iteration of the ADSB era of aviation that we are now entering.
 
I see it does mention the midfield overhead entry which is used by just about every other country in the world.
 
I started my training in 86 in the SF Bay Area and took my checkride in AL in 88 (so two different instructors in two different parts of the country; one young, one old). I was taught to overfly at TPA+500 every time and then maneuver as required for pattern entry. BUT...this was in the pre-AWOS days and the purpose of the overflight was to check the windsock to see which way the wind was blowing and select the runway. So the midfield crossover entry only makes sense if you have the weather. Admittedly these days AWOS is prevalent, so THAT reason for overflying at +500' goes away.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
I do midfield, not departure end. On a longer runway or with a powerful aircraft taking off, much more chance of a conflict at the departure end.
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Maybe, but if I'm in the left seat, I find it a bit easier to spot the departing aircraft from past the departure end than the arriving aircraft on the 45 from midfield opposite side.
 
Van Johnston said:
I started my training in 86 in the SF Bay Area and took my checkride in AL in 88 (so two different instructors in two different parts of the country; one young, one old). I was taught to overfly at TPA+500 every time and then maneuver as required for pattern entry. BUT...this was in the pre-AWOS days and the purpose of the overflight was to check the windsock to see which way the wind was blowing and select the runway. So the midfield crossover entry only makes sense if you have the weather. Admittedly these days AWOS is prevalent, so THAT reason for overflying at +500' goes away.
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You can see the windsock as well from pattern altitude as from +500. If there are already people in the pattern, you know where to enter. Of course, it could be downwind, but you can negotiate that when you get there.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Any opinions on this forum, please advise.
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I think it’s a good idea that call signs should be used. I’ve used ‘red n white Cessna 123’ for years. I’ll drop the type and colors if I’m having a specific conversation with another pilot about something
 
It’s great to be able to know where to look and what to expect. If we stray from the expectations of where other pilots expect us to be, risk goes up. That’s it in a nutshell.

Now we’re going to have to expect more of the unexpected than we had before, because some people didn’t get a memo and keep doing it the old way or a way that is safer for them. That’s great if you can see me, but I might not be able to see you. It’ll never be perfect, but we can lower the risk by all following a smaller set of variable procedures (rather than a bigger set).

What I learned today: oil the swivel that my head is on, cuz I’m gonna have to use it more.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
It’s great to be able to know where to look and what to expect. If we stray from the expectations of where other pilots expect us to be, risk goes up. That’s it in a nutshell.

Now we’re going to have to expect more of the unexpected than we had before, because some people didn’t get a memo and keep doing it the old way or a way that is safer for them. That’s great if you can see me, but I might not be able to see you. It’ll never be perfect, but we can lower the risk by all following a smaller set of variable procedures (rather than a bigger set).

What I learned today: oil the swivel that my head is on, cuz I’m gonna have to use it more.
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Not much changed, pretty much the same AC.
 
mscard88 said:
Not much changed, pretty much the same AC.
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I still need to grease the zerks in my neck tho; Good reminder.

POA is good for at least broadening our awareness and keeping aviation in the front of our thoughts even when we’re not flying (like in business meetings when we’re supposed to be engaged). I’m not talking about myself.
 
donjohnston said:
If the midfield crossover is done at pattern altitude, how does the low wing vs. high wing figure in?
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Typo! My bad. I meant a low wing vs a low wing.

If both are turning into a downwind the wing would create a blind spot were both parties wouldn't see each other.
 
I don't think they expect you to see the numbers. I don't think they're entirely useless. It might make it easier to figure out how many targets you have. Two voices could sound similar, you might think two planes are the one without unique call signs, I would think that is the point.
 
NoHeat said:
I’m just curious about this part:

Parachute Operations.
12.5.1 All activities are normally conducted under a NOTAM noting the location, altitudes, and time or duration of jump operations.​

I don’t recall ever seeing such a NOTAM. Are they included in a Foreflifgt briefing, for a route that passes nearby ?
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Like Jessie said, full time DZs will be marked on the chart a with a description in the AFD most times.

The NOTAM often is used when you're doing a off DZ jump, wedding, footbal game, 4th of July, etc.


As far as not saying the color, seems silly, easier to make out a planes color than its tail number, but whatever, as long as people use a little common sense it's all the same.
 
Leo said:
Me to? Question??? Is this approach approved by FAA?
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There is only one thing that is regulatory:

“At airports without operating control towers, part 91 requires only that pilots of airplanes approaching to land make all turns to the left, unless light signals or visual markings indicate that turns should be made to the right“

Everything else is advisory, up for debate, etc. But be ever mindful of the catch all “careless or reckless” of 91.13.

PilotRPI said:
Patterns are for nerds. Just straight line it to short final and battle it out over the threshold.
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Perfectly acceptable. No one says how long or short a straight in approach that does not involve the pattern has to be. Just don’t call a right base, that would peg you as flying an illegal pattern, per my quote above.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I'm surprised no one addresses the problem with flying 500 feet above TPA; turbine aircraft fly a traffic pattern at that altitude! That is the problem I have with the overfly 500+ TPA and circle, plus now you may be descending onto someone that is already on the 45.

The midfield crossover puts the entire traffic pattern in your windshield and in my opinion gives you the best chance of seeing other traffic. It also puts you above departing traffic, and below and inside of any fast movers in the turbine pattern.
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I was taught to fly 500’ above highest TPA. At the airport I fly TPA is 1000’, TPA for jets is 1500’ so we do overflight at 2000’ for teardrop to enter downwind.
 
Leo said:
“Crosswind entry at the departures end” Why? Just curious, according to the FAA bulletin are you legal to do this entry?
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The advisory circular isn’t regulatory. The only regulatory requirement is that you fly the pattern in the published direction (right vs left traffic.

During my CFI checkride I “taught” and “demonstrated” this pattern entry to a FAA inspector and passed on the first shot.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I do midfield, not departure end. On a longer runway or with a powerful aircraft taking off, much more chance of a conflict at the departure end.

Agree though on the teardrop. Even in the graphic in the AC, it is waaaayyy too close to the traffic pattern.
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To each their own - but I consider the departure end conflict a non-factor as I am equipped with eyeballs. This entry gives you a great view of the runway and if a departing aircraft conflicts it’s because you weren’t using your eyeballs. Nothing can help with that.
 
yakdriver said:
When I'm flying the N3N I identify myself as Yellow Biplane N45261. If I called in Naval Aircraft Factory N3N 90% of the pilots out there would have no idea what it was or what to look for. Plus it's a mouthful.
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First call for me, 10 miles out, is "RV 427DK"; subsequent calls are "red RV." Easy and quick to say, and no need for November on initial call...other pilots know I'm in the U.S.

I don't mention Experimental unless it's the initial call to a towered airport, or for flight following purposes.
 
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SkyDog58 said:
Since this is about radio communication at non-towered fields, I’m not sure if there would be any FAA tapes. Do they record CTAF? :dunno:
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I don't know about official FAA recordings but quite a few are picked up by LiveATC which is archived. My home field CTAF is.

I always use just the last three of my tail #..."Cessna 345". Every time I hear "Yellow High Wing" or similar I picture the pilot sitting in the cockpit with the tin foil hat thinking he is hiding from the government.

razor.png
 
Leo said:
Me to? Question??? Is this approach approved by FAA?
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"Arriving aircraft should be at traffic pattern altitude and allow for sufficient time to view the entire traffic pattern before entering. Entries into traffic patterns while descending may create collision hazards and should be avoided. Entry to the downwind leg should be at a 45 degree angle abeam the midpoint of the runway to be used for landing. The pilot may use discretion to choose an alternate type of entry, especially when intending to cross over midfield, based upon the traffic and communication at the time of arrival. "

Do you see anything there that either prohibits or advises against it?
 
jesse said:
I hate the overfly and teardrop crap. Too much maneuvering and turning near an airport.
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In addition to the reasons above, I have found that it is sometimes difficult to visually reacquire the airport after turning back inbound from the teardrop.

I teach and fly a crosswind entry - though typically on the departure end of the runway and not midfield. Some thread probably about 12 years ago on this forum convinced me of it.
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A crosswind entry off the departure end seems like the best solution to me, although I recently flew with an instructor who wasn't comfortable with it.

There's no place to enter the pattern that doesn't have the potential for conflict with another aircraft, but the conflict with the highest closure rate is the one between a midfield crossover entry at pattern altitude vs. a 45 degree entry. That's why I choose to avoid the former.
 
SkyDog58 said:
@Palmpilot LOL. Having recently read the AC already, when I got to this in your OP

I automatically thought you were going to rant about either pattern entry or ATITAPA but not the aircraft colors aspect. Fooled me. But looks like it drifted to pattern entry anyways. :)
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Everyone has their opinions, and everyone has their reasons. There is no method that eliminates all possible hazards, so it boils down to which ones the pilot thinks are most likely. For me, the closure rate seems more important. For others, something else may seem more important. In the absence of data, it's a highly subjective determination, so I try to avoid ranting! :)
 
I'm a midfield kind of guy, most of the time. When approaching from the "wrong" side of the field, I feel that midfield is the least likely area to have other airplanes in it. Of all the places around an airfield, that's one of the few places where you can reasonably expect nobody to be, except for people going the same direction as you. You can see both ends of the runway and the whole pattern, right up until the turn downwind. You're a bit blind on one side for a short amount of time, then you only fly half of the pattern. It's the safest, quickest, and offers the least exposure to other airplanes of any other entry, IMO. It also allows you a good overhead look at the wind sock. Necessary at my field without AWOS.

Entering crosswind on the departure end is a close second for me. I use it when I need to make more space for other aircraft in the pattern. The drawback is that you're in the pattern for a longer period of time with other planes.

Teardropping is just not good IMO. The only people I've ever seen actually do it is University of Oklahoma students and instructors. Terribly inefficient and the most dangerous of all with the 270 degree turn close to the pattern, at low altitude, while slowing down, where you could be in conflict of people entering on a 45.
 
Palmpilot said:
In addition to the reasons above, I have found that it is sometimes difficult to visually reacquire the airport after turning back inbound from the teardrop.
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Same here. There are fields where I have to do a 270 to get down to pattern altitude after crossing over a ridge, and it can sometimes be quite challenging to reacquire the field after that long descending turn.

For any New England pilots, I'm thinking specifically of 2B3, approaching from the NW, basically from over KLEB.

But for the same reason, I'm not keen on the teardrop entry, though I was taught to do it during primary training.
 
jesse said:
I hate the overfly and teardrop crap. Too much maneuvering and turning near an airport.

I teach and fly a crosswind entry - though typically on the departure end of the runway and not midfield. Some thread probably about 12 years ago on this forum convinced me of it.
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Flew into OKV the other day and entered exactly like this, crosswind entry near the departure end. Only a fellow was making a righthand departure, not the end of the world but we probably passed each other about 200 yds apart. At least the midfield entry protects you from guys making righthand turns after departure.
 
According FAA "Most reported mid-air collisions occur during the final or short final approach leg of the airport traffic pattern" and "Nearly all accidents occur at or near uncontrolled airports and at altitudes below 1,000 feet"Entering midfield crosswind at the pattern altitude VS entering crosswind on the departure end. I wonder what is the best, and they other hand i have seen and been cut off too many times by guys crossing midfield at TPA and then just joining the pattern;)
 
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