New Tools

[Dan Thomas]

To do an engine correctly if I wanted to buy the machines required, the minimum I could get away with will be about $45k in old used manual control machines of the Sunnen CK 10 vintage I grew up with, although I'm not sure I could fit the crank grinder into that budget, it alone would likely double the budget and probably need a new wheel. Crank grinders are money makers and bring a healthy price, at least last time I priced one.

I grew up with a CK-10, too. Spent thousands of hours on it and a Storm Vulcan 15 crank grinder.

An aircraft engine shop I know--a fairly big one--has a CK-10 that is never used anymore. They told me that they buy new cylinders instead. They're cheaper by the time you figure the labor to resize a cylinder and regrind the valves and seats and check the whole thing for cracks.


Dan

 

[Tom-D]

I grew up with a CK-10, too. Spent thousands of hours on it and a Storm Vulcan 15 crank grinder.

An aircraft engine shop I know--a fairly big one--has a CK-10 that is never used anymore. They told me that they buy new cylinders instead. They're cheaper by the time you figure the labor to resize a cylinder and regrind the valves and seats and check the whole thing for cracks.


Dan

Try to buy a new Franklin 165 cylinder.. Some times you gotta rebuild.

I have customers that will pay 15k for a serviceable Warner 145 Crank.

So you see we do what we can to save the parts we have.

Here is a what is it "new tool"

 

[Henning]

It's called a external lap. they come in all sizes.

You place a small amount of 2500 grit lapping compound in the lap. bolt it around the crank pin, spin it, remove it and measure, repeat until the undersize is what is required.

These laps are are adjustable and you can get within .0001" with them.

I would advise practicing.

How does that center the dimension of the crank pin to the main?

 

[Henning]

taking.010" off any crank will ruin it, get real. try taking .0001" off a Warner crank and fitting it with a new bearing.

you must repair the journal, measure it, and lap a new under sized insert bearing to fit it at .0015' to .002 for oil clearance. If you want your 0-XXX-? done? send it to aircraft specialities, When you want a very rare radial crank saved send it to me or Allan Holloway. and bring money, because it is a time consuming routine, that shouldn't be tried by new bees with a portable crank grinder.

Like I said before Just because you don't know how, don't believe it can't be done.

Every time I've "rebuilt" a crank when I couldn't use an undersize bearing I had to wrap a weld around the pin and grind it back down. That always took a proper crank grinder. .010 is a standard undersize bearing for most every crank I've ever seen, is the Warner pin that weak it can't lose the meat?

 

[Tom-D]

Every time I've "rebuilt" a crank when I couldn't use an undersize bearing I had to wrap a weld around the pin and grind it back down. That always took a proper crank grinder. .010 is a standard undersize bearing for most every crank I've ever seen, is the Warner pin that weak it can't lose the meat?

There is no authorized method of welding up a crank that I know of for the 0-200/300 or any of the radials I work on.

You will not be grinding .010" off any crank unless you are a CRS with FAA approved method.

The Lap I borrow, will remove .001" max, that is as tight as you can squeeze it. I use it to remove a mildly out of round crank. If it requires more than that I send it out.

You can buy a set of laps, that will be in .001" graduates, 0-1, 1-2, etc. but they are expensive.

 

[Tom-D]

How does that center the dimension of the crank pin to the main?

It doesn't.

 

[Skylane81E]

FWIW while you may not end up with the "best" engine, a direct drive Lycoming engine needs very little done that your average well equipped home garage has to overhaul per the manual.

I just completed one recently, 100% per the book. NDT was farmed out as I don't regularly do engines. If I did a few hundred dollars would get me what I needed. The inspection equipment isn't very costly, its the machining goodies that are. However there are already so many shops doing the work it would be hard to find justification for buying the equipment.

Now on that engine I will admit to having gotten lucky, the crank is on it's last run before it will need to be cut undersized, two of the journals were smack on minimums (and oddly enough the bearing clearances were right at max, who'da thunk it?)

 

[Tom-D]

Today I finally got the lower end of my 0-300-D part. This engine has 250 hours since last major by the Continental factory and was built as a "Rebuilt" engine.

The Cam is at minimum lift standards, the crank is a M.010, and every lifter is too short to regrind again.

So much for your REBUILT engine being better. The Factory can build a POS and call it rebuilt because they can authorize any size under current regulations, but the FAA requires us field mechanics to adhere to the overhaul standards set in the factory written overhaul manual.

I'll be back with pictures of the corrosion found after being stored for 20 years with out preservation.

 

[VanDy]

Try to buy a new Franklin 165 cylinder.. Some times you gotta rebuild.

I have customers that will pay 15k for a serviceable Warner 145 Crank.

So you see we do what we can to save the parts we have.

Here is a what is it "new tool"

So what is it?

 

[Tom-D]

So what is it?

Hand driven bore bar for aligning the oil feed bushing in a Warner 165.

 

[VanDy]

Hand driven bore bar for aligning the oil feed bushing in a Warner 165.

interesting! sounds like something that would come in handy for you!

 

[Tom-D]

interesting! sounds like something that would come in handy for you!

Already gone to Italy with the Warner.

 

[bluerooster]

I have absolutely NOTHING against certified parts..


My disdain is for A&P's who return parts to service and not do all the proper testing, measuring, cleaning and confirming it is the correct part in the first place.... You and I both know a small time A&P mechanic cannot magnaflux a crank, or polish it, or grind it undersize, or rework connecting rods, or alignbore cases, or bore cylinders, or Zyglo aluminum parts, or a number of other machine work operations and QC tests needed to PROPERLY return an aircraft engine to accepted standards. When I see a one man operation, overhauling an aircraft engine, in house, with no yellow tagged components being used... I scream BS.!!!!!!!

Yeah.... An A&P can steam clean a motor, flex hone the cylinders and re- assemble it, paint it with a couple of cans of Krylon and call it (rebuilt)... And you know it happens all the friggin time too... But.... In the end it is not the highest quality product that can be produced and sold to the general public.... Either do it the best you can using the repair stations that specialize in that area or leave it to professionals.

Aircraft parts that are not properly serviced can and will kill the pilot of a plane.. The mechanic gets to go home at the end of the day in his car/truck... The dead pilot gets put in a body bag.... and a ride in a hearse..

IMHO...

And why not!? There are a few one man shops out there that are just as well equipped as the major reman factories.
And those that aren't usually send parts out to be overhauled/repaired.
Anyone that has a decent set of mics can measure a crank.
I can linebore a crank case. (not that I will )
I just purchased a nice magnaflux getup used for $100 at the pawn shop.
And I never use a flex hone (referring to the one with balls on it)
Cylinders seldom get bored, the walls are too thin to permit more than a couple of thousandths, they get replaced if out of limits.
I'll send the crank out if it doesn't meet spec.
I can grind the valves, and the seats, and replace the guides, as well as flow test the heads.
I'm a one man shop.
I'm certian that Tom has what he needs to complete the job without doing anything half assed.

 

[bluerooster]

Here is a piece of work, how do you believe I rebuilt the Warner, do you believe I can send any of the antique engines out to speciality shops.

You do every thing by hand.

That first pic ain't being done by hand, you gotta lathe!

 

[Tom-D]

That first pic ain't being done by hand, you gotta lathe!

WoW,, You got me, when manufacturing parts it is most difficult to do it all with a hack saw and file. but there are no rules saying we can't, like Ben thinks.


And Yes I have a lathe, tig welder, vertical and horizontal band saws, and access to more power tools.

 

[N801BH]

WoW,, You got me, when manufacturing parts it is most difficult to do it all with a hack saw and file. but there are no rules saying we can't, like Ben thinks.

.

Tom... You have convinced me that a A&P can fabricate any part, for any plane, at any time........

I concede... You win...

and I am smarter for it....

I live and I learn..


Ben.

 

[bluerooster]

Actually A&P is allowed to, whether he/she can or not is another question. But I would hazard to guess that if he can't he'll get a PMA'd part, or a reman.
But if none are available, one will have to be fabricated, by someone.

 

[Tom-D]

Actually A&P is allowed to, whether he/she can or not is another question. But I would hazard to guess that if he can't he'll get a PMA'd part, or a reman.
But if none are available, one will have to be fabricated, by someone.

Speaking to the larger aircraft hydraulic struts, most shops outside the manufacturer do not have the tools or equipment to comply with the component overhaul manuals, if there is one in existence. So with that in mind, they are considered not repairable in the field. The testing requirement usually is the deal breaker, because most are treated as a pressure vessel, and the presssure to test scare the bejesus out of any one with an ounce of common sense.

 

[Silvaire]

And why not!? There are a few one man shops out there that are just as well equipped as the major reman factories.
And those that aren't usually send parts out to be overhauled/repaired.
Anyone that has a decent set of mics can measure a crank.
I can linebore a crank case. (not that I will )
I just purchased a nice magnaflux getup used for $100 at the pawn shop.
And I never use a flex hone (referring to the one with balls on it)
Cylinders seldom get bored, the walls are too thin to permit more than a couple of thousandths, they get replaced if out of limits.
I'll send the crank out if it doesn't meet spec.
I can grind the valves, and the seats, and replace the guides, as well as flow test the heads.
I'm a one man shop.
I'm certian that Tom has what he needs to complete the job without doing anything half assed.

You know it used to be that the FAR's were either on MicroFiche or paper bound on a shelf somewhere but now that the internet exists and every Tom, Dick or Harry can read and cut/paste them they're open to interpretation by all which is, not such a good thing.

An A&P Mechanic is licensed to interpret the regulations. It's kind of like a chain of command, he is a Judge. When he signs that book there has to be a valid reason to challenge that signature and that challenge must be presented to his superior - somewhere higher up in the FAA.

I mean, isn't that how it works everywhere else?

 

[Tom-D]

An A&P Mechanic is licensed to interpret the regulations. It's kind of like a chain of command, he is a Judge. When he signs that book there has to be a valid reason to challenge that signature and that challenge must be presented to his superior - somewhere higher up in the FAA.

Usually that reason is a smoking hole or a bitchin customer and all the FAA safety inspector must do to challenge that signature is to tell the A&P to demonstrate how they did the work. That A&P best have "acceptable to the administrator" instructions for the work accomplished.

 

[N801BH]

Usually that reason is a smoking hole or a bitchin customer and all the FAA safety inspector must do to challenge that signature is to tell the A&P to demonstrate how they did the work. That A&P best have "acceptable to the administrator" instructions for the work accomplished.

And therein lies the rub.... You can have a very talanted A&P who wants to fabricate a replacement part for a certified aircraft. Being able to get a legally binding "acceptable to the administrator" set of instructions is problematic these days.. Add to that, finding the correct material to use that has traceability, and the tooling to provide that fabrication, and the testing equipment to confirm that "in house" part meets OEM specs is slim to NONE, and slim left town about 30 years ago.....

The concept of a competent A&P to fab a part is sound, unfortunately reality has gotten in the way.. Along with skyscrapers full of hungry attorneys.. IMHO..

Ps... Keep in mind , that smoking hole contains dead humans an A&P put there by trying to build replacement parts.... .

The A&P has his money from the botched job... The customer has 6 feet of dirt shoveled over his head..

 

[Tom-D]

And therein lies the rub.... You can have a very talanted A&P who wants to fabricate a replacement part for a certified aircraft. Being able to get a legally binding "acceptable to the administrator" set of instructions is problematic these days.. Add to that, finding the correct material to use that has traceability, and the tooling to provide that fabrication, and the testing equipment to confirm that "in house" part meets OEM specs is slim to NONE, and slim left town about 30 years ago.....

The concept of a competent A&P to fab a part is sound, unfortunately reality has gotten in the way.. Along with skyscrapers full of hungry attorneys.. IMHO..

Ps... Keep in mind , that smoking hole contains dead humans an A&P put there by trying to build replacement parts.... .

The A&P has his money from the botched job... The customer has 6 feet of dirt shoveled over his head..

Now you know the biggest reason I stick to old aircraft, the factories are gone, there is no support and the AC 43-13 is acceptable data to make modifications, and procedures given in it are acceptable to the Administrator.

plus, the factory blue prints and manuals are public domaine and can be obtained by any one with the bucks.

And, most are supported by type clubs that are filled with members that have BTDT on most any thing you want to do.

 

[Tom-D]

The A&P has his money from the botched job... The customer has 6 feet of dirt shoveled over his head..

You keep coming back to this type of statement, WHY ?

 

[bbchien]

Tom, he says that becuase Ben has TREMENDOUS experience in fabrication. You need to get him to post the link to his video....

 

[bluerooster]

You know it used to be that the FAR's were either on MicroFiche or paper bound on a shelf somewhere but now that the internet exists and every Tom, Dick or Harry can read and cut/paste them they're open to interpretation by all which is, not such a good thing.

An A&P Mechanic is licensed to interpret the regulations. It's kind of like a chain of command, he is a Judge. When he signs that book there has to be a valid reason to challenge that signature and that challenge must be presented to his superior - somewhere higher up in the FAA.

I mean, isn't that how it works everywhere else?

And what has that got to do with the difference between a "professional" overhaul shop with an overhead of $10k/month, or a "One man shop" with a much lower overhead. Both performing the same job as per whatever mx manual, instruction book, specs, AC-43.13, etc.?
One guy gets to sign off on the work performed by a non A&P, in a nice white hospital setting, and the other signs off on his own work, and actually knows exactly what was done and how.
Both have the proper reference material, and follow it to a "T".
So why is the one man shop inferrior to the Big hospital type shops?

 

[bluerooster]

And therein lies the rub.... You can have a very talanted A&P who wants to fabricate a replacement part for a certified aircraft. Being able to get a legally binding "acceptable to the administrator" set of instructions is problematic these days.. Add to that, finding the correct material to use that has traceability, and the tooling to provide that fabrication, and the testing equipment to confirm that "in house" part meets OEM specs is slim to NONE, and slim left town about 30 years ago.....

The concept of a competent A&P to fab a part is sound, unfortunately reality has gotten in the way.. Along with skyscrapers full of hungry attorneys.. IMHO..

Ps... Keep in mind , that smoking hole contains dead humans an A&P put there by trying to build replacement parts.... .

The A&P has his money from the botched job... The customer has 6 feet of dirt shoveled over his head..

Generally, when it comes to a fabricated part, it is only done when all other resources have been exhausted. With the exception of certian non-structural parts.
IIRC, if there is nothing but the old part, you are allowed to "reverse engineer" and fabricate a new one, using the old one as a pattern.
And if you don't have the needed equipement to perform the task, the job can be farmed out to someone who does.

So, you remove the ADF from your airplane, (or radio shop does) the remove the loop antenna, Now you've got a big honkin teardrop hole in yer belly.
There needs to be a cover plate for that hole. Guess what. Nobody makes them. Whatcha gonna do? You don' wanna become a smokin' hole, due to in house fabricated parts which don't carry a PMA#.
I guess th' airplane is scrap now. Or ya gotta live with the 5# antenna.

 

[Tom-D]

So, you remove the ADF from your airplane, (or radio shop does) the remove the loop antenna, Now you've got a big honkin teardrop hole in yer belly.
There needs to be a cover plate for that hole. Guess what. Nobody makes them. Whatcha gonna do? You don' wanna become a smokin' hole, due to in house fabricated parts which don't carry a PMA#.
I guess th' airplane is scrap now. Or ya gotta live with the 5# antenna.

These holes are repaired IAW the structural repair manual for your aircraft.

When the aircraft is not supported by the manufacturer, the Repair can be designed IAW the AC43-13. It may or may not require a field approval, depending upon the repair required.

 

[bluerooster]

These holes are repaired IAW the structural repair manual for your aircraft.

When the aircraft is not supported by the manufacturer, the Repair can be designed IAW the AC43-13. It may or may not require a field approval, depending upon the repair required.

My point exactly. which was directed to N801BH, who seems to think that an in-house fabricated part will lead to a smokin' hole.

 

[N801BH]

My point exactly. which was directed to N801BH, who seems to think that an in-house fabricated part will lead to a smokin' hole.

I will fix my own plane... Thanks anyway...

 

[Tom-D]

My point exactly. which was directed to N801BH, who seems to think that an in-house fabricated part will lead to a smokin' hole.

I do not believe he ever advocated that at all.

 

[bluerooster]

Mabe I missed something. but in the reading it sounded like he was of the inclination that A&P fabricated parts were somehow inferrior to mass produced parts built by non-A&P types. I know, they get inspected, but some fall through the cracks. That's why there are serial number specific ADs.

Ps... Keep in mind , that smoking hole contains dead humans an A&P put there by trying to build replacement parts.... .

 

[N801BH]

Mabe I missed something. but in the reading it sounded like he was of the inclination that A&P fabricated parts were somehow inferrior to mass produced parts built by non-A&P types. I know, they get inspected, but some fall through the cracks. That's why there are serial number specific ADs.

You make a good point.....

 

[Henning]

Actually, an owner is free to produce their own parts for their own craft as long as they meet the spec of the factory part. An A&P doesn't have that much liberty with a customer plane.