New Tools

[Tom-D]

My disdain is for A&P's who return parts to service and not do all the proper testing, measuring, cleaning and confirming it is the correct part in the first place.... You and I both know a small time A&P mechanic cannot magnaflux a crank, or polish it, or grind it undersize, or rework connecting rods, or alignbore cases, or bore cylinders, or Zyglo aluminum parts, or a number of other machine work operations and QC tests needed to PROPERLY return an aircraft engine to accepted standards. When I see a one man operation, overhauling an aircraft engine, in house, with no yellow tagged components being used... I scream BS.!!!!!!!

Yeah.... An A&P can steam clean a motor, flex hone the cylinders and re- assemble it, paint it with a couple of cans of Krylon and call it (rebuilt)... And you know it happens all the friggin time too... But.... In the end it is not the highest quality product that can be produced and sold to the general public.... Either do it the best you can using the repair stations that specialize in that area or leave it to professionals.

Aircraft parts that are not properly serviced can and will kill the pilot of a plane.. The mechanic gets to go home at the end of the day in his car/truck... The dead pilot gets put in a body bag.... and a ride in a hearse..

IMHO...

Show me the rule that says I can not do any of these things.

All I must do is comply with FAR 43.2

You imply it is illegal, when in actuality it is a matter of economy. I simply don't do enough to warrant buying the equipment/tools.

 

[N801BH]

Show me the rule that says I can not do any of these things.

All I must do is comply with FAR 43.2

You imply it is illegal, when in actuality it is a matter of economy. I simply don't do enough to warrant buying the equipment/tools.

Geez..... I was responding to Silvaire.....

Maybe you are feelin kinda guilty too....

 

[Silvaire]

...Either do it the best you can using the repair stations that specialize in that area or leave it to professionals...

So obviously you've never had a yellow tagged carburetor or alternator from Kelley Aerospace. Technically the A&P mechanic IS a professional but if the yellow tags give you a warm and fuzzy feeling just understand that's what they are for, nothing else.

 

[N801BH]

So obviously you've never had a yellow tagged carburetor or alternator from Kelley Aerospace. Technically the A&P mechanic IS a professional but if the yellow tags give you a warm and fuzzy feeling just understand that's what they are for, nothing else.

.


I take back what I said about " certified" parts....

And... If a professional A&P installs a Kelley Aerospace carb on a plane another person will fly, and said A&P knew that stuff was junk before he/she installed it...... Does that decision making process make that A&P a real professional in their trade ?

 

[Silvaire]

.... If a professional A&P installs a Kelley Aerospace carb on a plane another person will fly, and said A&P knew that stuff was junk before he/she installed it....(

How is he supposed to know that it is junk? The bottom line is that a knowledgeable A&P Mechanic can rebuild a carburetor or any other component but he is not going to beat the repair station price. Kelley will sell you a rebuilt component and if it doesn't work they'll say "here, try this one" and if that doesn't work they'll hem and haw but probably send you a third one to "try" which is exactly my point - they all would have yellow tags

If the A&P rebuilds your component and it doesn't work he's got to go through it all again and make it work. The repair station has economy of scale, another component ready to ship on the shelf, but it doesn't necessarily mean the quality is better.

A good A&P mechanic can overhaul your engine. Sure, he's going to take the crank and rods and cylinders to a trusted machinist - who may or may not have a repair station license - because he just isn't equipped for the heavy machine work, but he can do just about everything else perfectly fine. Again though, he can't beat the price of the established engine rebuilders.

Another thing you might want to know about repair stations. It means that Bubba, who dropped out of 8th grade, could be the guy grinding your crank because no one working there is required to have any licenses.

But you'll have a stack of yellow tags if that's what you're after.

 

[N801BH]

How is he supposed to know that it is junk? The bottom line is that a knowledgeable A&P Mechanic can rebuild a carburetor or any other component but he is not going to beat the repair station price. Kelley will sell you a rebuilt component and if it doesn't work they'll say "here, try this one" and if that doesn't work they'll hem and haw but probably send you a third one to "try" which is exactly my point - they all would have yellow tags

If the A&P rebuilds your component and it doesn't work he's got to go through it all again and make it work. The repair station has economy of scale, another component ready to ship on the shelf, but it doesn't necessarily mean the quality is better.

A good A&P mechanic can overhaul your engine. Sure, he's going to take the crank and rods and cylinders to a trusted machinist - who may or may not have a repair station license - because he just isn't equipped for the heavy machine work, but he can do just about everything else perfectly fine. Again though, he can't beat the price of the established engine rebuilders.

Another thing you might want to know about repair stations. It means that Bubba, who dropped out of 8th grade, could be the guy grinding your crank because no one working there is required to have any licenses.

But you'll have a stack of yellow tags if that's what you're after.

Agreed on all your points..........

 

[Tom-D]

So obviously you've never had a yellow tagged carburetor or alternator from Kelley Aerospace. Technically the A&P mechanic IS a professional but if the yellow tags give you a warm and fuzzy feeling just understand that's what they are for, nothing else.

OH NO! what they actually do is prove you have a used part.

because you don't get one with a new part.

 

[Tom-D]

How is he supposed to know that it is junk? The bottom line is that a knowledgeable A&P Mechanic can rebuild a carburetor or any other component but he is not going to beat the repair station price.

Bet me,,,,, But I don't rebuild any carb, I repair as required, because if you rebuild them you must test them on a flow bench.

I test them on the aircraft, If they run good there what else do we need to know?

 

[Dan Thomas]

I disagree sir....

We can argue next year...

Glass bead can and will close tiny cracks enough to keep dye out of them.

From http://www.nationalboard.org/Index.aspx?pageID=164&ID=374

"Metal smearing from power wire brushing, shot blasting, or grit blasting must be removed prior to liquid penetrant examination."

Even finer grades of bead can peen aluminum. I have bead blasted 2024 sheet and watched it curve and distort away from the gun as the surface expanded. If the surface is expanding under bead blast, cracks are likely to close up.

Another reference in "The Code of Federal Regulations of the United States of America, 18.30-9" says that "sand blasting is not desirable as a cleaning method since surface indications may be obscured."

Bigger hassle with bead or any other grit is to make sure it's all removed from galleries and other places where it might get hung up or stick to bits of oil or sludge. It comes loose in the engine and causes terrible scoring.


Dan

 

[N801BH]

..............Bigger hassle with bead or any other grit is to make sure it's all removed from galleries and other places where it might get hung up or stick to bits of oil or sludge. It comes loose in the engine and causes terrible scoring.


Dan

That is a fact... The very first thing I thought was.. "how the hell is Tom Going to properly clean out that oil tank he bead blasted".. Those beads get stuck in some very small spaces /gaps.... I once met some guy who was bead blasting the inside of his oil cooler to try and remove metal particles from the bearing of the motor the cooler was on after it blew up... This guy was insistant he could clean out all the glass beads..

 

[Henning]

I have absolutely NOTHING against certified parts..


My disdain is for A&P's who return parts to service and not do all the proper testing, measuring, cleaning and confirming it is the correct part in the first place.... You and I both know a small time A&P mechanic cannot magnaflux a crank, or polish it, or grind it undersize, or rework connecting rods, or alignbore cases, or bore cylinders, or Zyglo aluminum parts, or a number of other machine work operations and QC tests needed to PROPERLY return an aircraft engine to accepted standards. When I see a one man operation, overhauling an aircraft engine, in house, with no yellow tagged components being used... I scream BS.!!!!!!!

Yeah.... An A&P can steam clean a motor, flex hone the cylinders and re- assemble it, paint it with a couple of cans of Krylon and call it (rebuilt)... And you know it happens all the friggin time too... But.... In the end it is not the highest quality product that can be produced and sold to the general public.... Either do it the best you can using the repair stations that specialize in that area or leave it to professionals.

Aircraft parts that are not properly serviced can and will kill the pilot of a plane.. The mechanic gets to go home at the end of the day in his car/truck... The dead pilot gets put in a body bag.... and a ride in a hearse..

IMHO...

That depends on how smart the A&P is. I built a perfectly good magnaflux rig out of a car battery, an old carbon type pile battery tester, a coil of copper wire, and a bag of iron filings.

 

[Henning]

How is he supposed to know that it is junk? The bottom line is that a knowledgeable A&P Mechanic can rebuild a carburetor or any other component but he is not going to beat the repair station price. Kelley will sell you a rebuilt component and if it doesn't work they'll say "here, try this one" and if that doesn't work they'll hem and haw but probably send you a third one to "try" which is exactly my point - they all would have yellow tags

If the A&P rebuilds your component and it doesn't work he's got to go through it all again and make it work. The repair station has economy of scale, another component ready to ship on the shelf, but it doesn't necessarily mean the quality is better.

A good A&P mechanic can overhaul your engine. Sure, he's going to take the crank and rods and cylinders to a trusted machinist - who may or may not have a repair station license - because he just isn't equipped for the heavy machine work, but he can do just about everything else perfectly fine. Again though, he can't beat the price of the established engine rebuilders.

Another thing you might want to know about repair stations. It means that Bubba, who dropped out of 8th grade, could be the guy grinding your crank because no one working there is required to have any licenses.

But you'll have a stack of yellow tags if that's what you're after.

Because it came from Kelly...

 

[Henning]

Bet me,,,,, But I don't rebuild any carb, I repair as required, because if you rebuild them you must test them on a flow bench.

I test them on the aircraft, If they run good there what else do we need to know?

Lol, I always loved the 'rebuilt carb' thing, with cars you can buy a $180 rebuilt carb, or you can buy an $18 jiffy kit, a $9 float, and a can of Berryman's B-12
and in 1/2 an hour have the same thing.

 

[Tom-D]

I have absolutely NOTHING against certified parts..


My disdain is for A&P's who return parts to service and not do all the proper testing, measuring, cleaning and confirming it is the correct part in the first place.... You and I both know a small time A&P mechanic cannot magnaflux a crank,
Yes they can, I have a portable magna flux kit, and use it often.
or polish it,

Why not, there are tools that do that pretty nicely.


or grind it undersize,
there are portable tools to do that too.

or rework connecting rods,
I do this on most of my engines it requires nothing but a hand hone from american Standard lap company


or alignbore cases,
I also have a hand lap to do this also.
or bore cylinders,
no body rebuilds cylinders any more
or Zyglo aluminum parts,
that's only a dye, what is so difficult about that? black lights are plentiful now.
or a number of other machine work operations
Name one that can't be completed in the field shops.

and QC tests needed to PROPERLY return an aircraft engine to accepted standards.

That's where I call bull shi-, Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean there aren't many who can.

When I see a one man operation, overhauling an aircraft engine, in house, with no yellow tagged components being used... I scream BS.!!!!!!!

Scream away, there are a bunch of custom overhaulers that produce better engines than the factory, and most of them are 1 man shops.

Yeah.... An A&P can steam clean a motor, flex hone the cylinders and re- assemble it, paint it with a couple of cans of Krylon and call it (rebuilt)...

You have just demonstrated you do not know what FAR 43.2 is all about.

And you know it happens all the friggin time too...
If you have 1 shred of evidence of that show it to us, and we will make sure the FSDO knows

But.... In the end it is not the highest quality product that can be produced and sold to the general public.... Either do it the best you can using the repair stations that specialize in that area or leave it to professionals.

There are a lot of professionals that do not work in a CRS.

Aircraft parts that are not properly serviced can and will kill the pilot of a plane.. The mechanic gets to go home at the end of the day in his car/truck... The dead pilot gets put in a body bag.... and a ride in a hearse..

IMHO...

I believe you imagination is working overtime.

 

[Tom-D]

Lol, I always loved the 'rebuilt carb' thing, with cars you can buy a $180 rebuilt carb, or you can buy an $18 jiffy kit, a $9 float, and a can of Berryman's B-12
and in 1/2 an hour have the same thing.

It's even worse in aviation, most of the FBOs make money on parts markup, they would much rather sell you a new carb than repair it them selves and take the responsibility for their work.

 

[Henning]

I used to be assigned polishing the crank and was handed a roll of 400 and jump rope. Wrap the paper, wrap the jump rope to make the width, start a soapy water drip and go to town.

 

[Silvaire]

It may be worse than that Tom. The likes of Kelley Aerospace are buying up all rights and resources for a large segment of certificated components. Much of the classic or antique fleet are orphaned and that even includes the Piper Cub because Piper Aircraft really isn't interested in it. You wanna learn how to spell cluster fu@k then try owning a Luscombe when it comes to tracking down who owns the TCDS.

The LSA thing may have been a valiant effort but what happens when the manufacturer goes tits up? Nobody has answered that question adequately. It's ironic that those who aspired to manufacture these $120k LSA machines may have actually conspired to exclude the entire fleet of classic aircraft that may have served a role in supporting this new segment and in doing so may have doomed it entirely.

The experimental segment is getting by fairly well but we have to understand the difference between building an airplane the YOU are going to fly and building an airplane that is going to go on the market to be sold to anyone who wants to buy it and take his whole family to Lake Tahoe next weekend.

There's a difference

 

[N801BH]

I believe you imagination is working overtime.

Hmmmm... Using a portable crank grinder on an aircraft crankshaft....

I can counter each of your comments but it's not worth my time..

I have to admit................ You are a PIECE of work...

 

[Tom-D]

Hmmmm... Using a portable crank grinder on an aircraft crankshaft....

I can counter each of your comments but it's not worth my time..

I have to admit................ You are a PIECE of work...

Here is a piece of work, how do you believe I rebuilt the Warner, do you believe I can send any of the antique engines out to speciality shops.

You do every thing by hand.

 

[N801BH]

Here is a piece of work, how do you believe I rebuilt the Warner, do you believe I can send any of the antique engines out to speciality shops.

You do every thing by hand.

Those pics don't show chit
Post one that clearly shows you grinding the rod throw using a portable crank grinder.. Like you claimed in the earlier post.... All I see is someone apparently using a lathe to turn a surface... Most 7th graders do that in metal shop daily...

My suggestion is for you to move to Las Vegas and get a job as a magician... Your speciality is ( smoke and mirrors)

 

[Alexb2000]

Not to interrupt the "discussion", but I've never rebuilt an aircraft engine. The shop that does my automotive and machinery rebuilding probably has at least $1M in specialized machinery. Clean room for assembly with at least $150K in measuring equipment. Dyno room, parts room, etc. Very elaborate, emaculate, organized, state of the art.

I would think to rebuild an aircraft engine with lives on the line, wouldn't you need at least a comparable setup?

 

[RotorAndWing]

I would think to rebuild an aircraft engine with lives on the line, wouldn't you need at least a comparable setup?

Lots of "shadetree" mechanics with ink pens and cans of Krylon.

Buyer Beware.

 

[Tom-D]

Lots of "shadetree" mechanics with ink pens and cans of Krylon.

Buyer Beware.

and for every one of them, there 10 who you never see, or hear about, because they do great work and never get your attention.

2% of the people make 100% of the news.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Not to interrupt the "discussion", but I've never rebuilt an aircraft engine. The shop that does my automotive and machinery rebuilding probably has at least $1M in specialized machinery. Clean room for assembly with at least $150K in measuring equipment. Dyno room, parts room, etc. Very elaborate, emaculate, organized, state of the art.

I would think to rebuild an aircraft engine with lives on the line, wouldn't you need at least a comparable setup?

I recently learned that the Continental that the old man overhauled in the basement in the 1970's is still in service and has not been overhauled since.

 

[Tom-D]

Not to interrupt the "discussion", but I've never rebuilt an aircraft engine. The shop that does my automotive and machinery rebuilding probably has at least $1M in specialized machinery. Clean room for assembly with at least $150K in measuring equipment. Dyno room, parts room, etc. Very elaborate, emaculate, organized, state of the art.

I would think to rebuild an aircraft engine with lives on the line, wouldn't you need at least a comparable setup?

Not really, you are working with 1930 technology.

 

[Tom-D]

I recently learned that the Continental that the old man overhauled in the basement in the 1970's is still in service and has not been overhauled since.

The foremost Ranger engine mechanic in the US works out of his basement. uses all hand tools to rebuild Rangers.

The only shop that is doing Warner overhauls is a machine shop, and run by a person who only holds a A&P.

 

[Alexb2000]

Not really, you are working with 1930 technology.

Look at the workshop on the Victor site:

http://www.victor-aviation.com/workshop.php

They talk about Ion Plasma Nitriding, laser shot peening, acoustic inspection, 5 angle valve machining, SEM, etc, etc.

Sounds like quite a few advances since the 1930's.

Are you saying you can produce just as good of quality using hand tools in a garage?

 

[Tom-D]

Sounds like quite a few advances since the 1930's.

Are you saying you can produce just as good of quality using hand tools in a garage?

It's nice to have those tools, but there isn't a single mention of them in the overhaul manual.

When I need those services I do use them, and yes I can produce an engine equal to theirs.

There is nothing saying I must own tools like this, I can find the services that I need when I need them.

I sent the parts of 2, 0-200s to aircraft specialties today.

Chuck Ney got the cases.

You see I have the choice of selecting who can do the best job.

 

[Henning]

Wait, what is a "portable crank grinder"? All the crank grinding I ever did was on a WWII Norton machine with an 8' diameter wheel. How do you deal with the pin offset with a portable machine? All the crank grinders I have seen are hardly 'portable'. Polishers yes, basically a belt sander that lays on the pin or main journal as a regular lathe spins it, but that is hardly a crank grinder. You may be able to undersized and clean up the surface, but you can't straighten up wear offset that occurs on the power stroke side.

Remaning rods and line boreing requires grinding caps and/or milling decks to undersized before boring square and back to size. At least that's the way I learned engine machine work, and I learned from some really sharp individuals building $30,000 engines on a daily basis.

BTW, the crank grinder is the worlds best knife sharpener.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Not to interrupt the "discussion", but I've never rebuilt an aircraft engine. The shop that does my automotive and machinery rebuilding probably has at least $1M in specialized machinery. Clean room for assembly with at least $150K in measuring equipment. Dyno room, parts room, etc. Very elaborate, emaculate, organized, state of the art.

I would think to rebuild an aircraft engine with lives on the line, wouldn't you need at least a comparable setup?

NO!

We call that Sell the Sizzle.

 

[Henning]

NO!

We call that Sell the Sizzle.

To do an engine correctly if I wanted to buy the machines required, the minimum I could get away with will be about $45k in old used manual control machines of the Sunnen CK 10 vintage I grew up with, although I'm not sure I could fit the crank grinder into that budget, it alone would likely double the budget and probably need a new wheel. Crank grinders are money makers and bring a healthy price, at least last time I priced one. Do I need a dyno? No, but I can build one relatively inexpensively with large generator and get some money back from the electric company selling them the electricity. Is the shop gonna be clean? Yes. Is it gonna look like an operating room? Meh.

 

[Tom-D]

Wait, what is a "portable crank grinder"?

It's called a external lap. they come in all sizes.

You place a small amount of 2500 grit lapping compound in the lap. bolt it around the crank pin, spin it, remove it and measure, repeat until the undersize is what is required.

These laps are are adjustable and you can get within .0001" with them.

I would advise practicing.

 

[Tom-D]

My suggestion is for you to move to Las Vegas and get a job as a magician... Your speciality is ( smoke and mirrors)

being insulting doesn't make you right. It simply shows you've been proven wrong.

 

[N801BH]

It's called a external lap. they come in all sizes.

You place a small amount of 2500 grit lapping compound in the lap. bolt it around the crank pin, spin it, remove it and measure, repeat until the undersize is what is required.

These laps are are adjustable and you can get within .0001" with them.

I would advise practicing.

Once again Tom is ((( NOT ))) correct.........................

A portable crank grinder is a device that would clamp onto the crank and literally GRIND the crankshaft surface... It is a VERY crude way to fix a bad crank surface and was used by cheap skates who didn't want to tear down the motor and fix it right.... I have done the "inframe grinding" 30 + years ago and hated every minute of it.... Kwik Way, Van Norman , Sunnen, Winona and other manufacturers offered the machine....

His explaination for LAPPING the journal with compound is NOT true, and definately NOT grinding.... Tom needs to be corrected so people won't think the BS he spouts is gospel...

Google portable crankgrinders and see how it is done...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/portable-crankshaft-grinder-drawing-220063/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519872

http://www.rtsalesinc.com/web_quote...ok_Portable_Crankshaft_Grinder_STOCK_0090.htm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunnen-Portable-Crankshaft-Grinder-Instruction-Manual-/360214494453

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/10884-crankshaft-grinder

http://www.beautomotivemachine.com/servlet/the-42/Van-Norman-Portable-Crankshaft/Detail..

Moral of the story..............................

If an " EXPERT" on the internet says he can grind a crank using 2500 grit lapping compound..... Put on some REALLY tall boots cause it's gonna get real deep , real fast..

 

[Tom-D]

Once again Tom is ((( NOT ))) correct.........................

A portable crank grinder is a device that would clamp onto the crank and literally GRIND the crankshaft surface... It is a VERY crude way to fix a bad crank surface and was used by cheap skates who didn't want to tear down the motor and fix it right.... I have done the "inframe grinding" 30 + years ago and hated every minute of it.... Kwik Way, Van Norman , Sunnen, Winona and other manufacturers offered the machine....

His explaination for LAPPING the journal with compound is NOT true, and definately NOT grinding.... Tom needs to be corrected so people won't think the BS he spouts is gospel...

Google portable crankgrinders and see how it is done...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/portable-crankshaft-grinder-drawing-220063/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519872

http://www.rtsalesinc.com/web_quote...ok_Portable_Crankshaft_Grinder_STOCK_0090.htm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sunnen-Portable-Crankshaft-Grinder-Instruction-Manual-/360214494453

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/10884-crankshaft-grinder

http://www.beautomotivemachine.com/servlet/the-42/Van-Norman-Portable-Crankshaft/Detail..

Moral of the story..............................

If an " EXPERT" on the internet says he can grind a crank using 2500 grit lapping compound..... Put on some REALLY tall boots cause it's gonna get real deep , real fast..

Portable crank grinder is your term, Show me where I said I used one.


first you said we needed yellow tags to approve any overhaul to service, we know that was wrong, then you say that an A&P didn't have the tools to do an overhaul, then you say that making oil feed bushings is a 7th grade student task.

This is one of many companies that will build a lap to fit your needs.

http://www.americanlap.com

Portable grinding machine, how stupid, I'm going to buy one of those to do one journal in a radial aircraft, Don't let your imagine run away with you.

 

[N801BH]

Portable crank grinder is your term, Show me where I said I used one.


.

Refer to post 54 of this thread............ Line 7 & 8....

 

[Tom-D]

Refer to post 54 of this thread............ Line 7 & 8....

This?

"or grind it undersize,
there are portable tools to do that too.

A lap is a portable tool.

"portable grinder" that's a stretch of your imagination.

 

[N801BH]

This?

"or grind it undersize,
there are portable tools to do that too.

A lap is a portable tool.

"portable grinder" that's a stretch of your imagination.

Geez........

Take your "lap tool" and remove .010 off a crank journal and get back to me..... I predict it will be in 2156 AD......

You have dug a deep enough hole for yourself already.. I will sit the rest of this thread out and laugh from the sidelines......

Enjoy...

 

[Tom-D]

Geez........

Take your "lap tool" and remove .010 off a crank journal and get back to me..... I predict it will be in 2156 AD......

You have dug a deep enough hole for yourself already.. I will sit the rest of this thread out and laugh from the sidelines......

Enjoy...

taking.010" off any crank will ruin it, get real. try taking .0001" off a Warner crank and fitting it with a new bearing.

you must repair the journal, measure it, and lap a new under sized insert bearing to fit it at .0015' to .002 for oil clearance. If you want your 0-XXX-? done? send it to aircraft specialities, When you want a very rare radial crank saved send it to me or Allan Holloway. and bring money, because it is a time consuming routine, that shouldn't be tried by new bees with a portable crank grinder.

Like I said before Just because you don't know how, don't believe it can't be done.

 

[Tom-D]

Lots of folks build their own tools to get a job done.

https://picasaweb.google.com/tonyboytoo/RivetSqueezer#5818209181961842482