New Plane Search - Seneca

The process is moving along nicely. Using Savvymx to help manage the prebuy. Scope of the inspection has been agreed to and shop selected. Two shops quoted 8 - 10 hours to accomplish the inspection scope. Inspection should happen within 10 - 14 days.

I used a broker that specializes in Twin Cessnas and transitions for insurance. Several companies declined to quote, but several did at the limits I was interested in. The quotes were significantly better than what I was anticipating. :yes: What was much more surprising to me was that they are requiring nothing other than a sign off by a CFI that has 10 hours make and model before I solo or carry pax. No dual required past that. I also have to get an IPC in the airplane once per year.

There is a CFI on this board who is contemplating helping me through this journey, but I will let him chime in if he so desires on that point. He has promised to thoroughly abuse me before signing off. :yes::D

Looking at booking a trip to Simcom in 2 - 4 months after I've got a bit more experience. Setting a personal limit of no hard IFR for six months(1000 and > 3). Want to have the avionics and airframe well in hand.

Hangars in two states are lined up for lease assuming we get through the closing.

Been dreaming about this step since my first flight lesson 12 years ago. :goofy:

Eggman
 
I'm glad I could be of service. :D

This is a very nice 310, and I think you'll find yourself glad you didn't go for the Seneca.

Ultimately, it hasn't been on the market long, and I know it's been getting a good sum of interest. 310Rs are going up in value and popularity now, which is good to see.

James_Dean said:
There is a CFI on this board who is contemplating helping me through this journey, but I will let him chime in if he so desires on that point. He has promised to thoroughly abuse me before signing off. :yes::D
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I am looking forward to the opportunity to indoctrinate you into 310 piloting. Yes, expect a full and thorough beating. :D
 
WOW great looking plane. CONGRATS!
 
Ted, you need to mandate that your new student/310 owner join TTCF and return that 310 to the next convention! ;)

Congrats Eggman! Hope everything goes through without a hitch!
 
Jim Burns said:
Ted, you need to mandate that your new student/310 owner join TTCF and return that 310 to the next convention! ;)

Congrats Eggman! Hope everything goes through without a hitch!
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Been a member for a year or so now. Just learning and stalking for what I wanted. I'm interested in the convention. Branson, though?
 
The TTCF convention is held at different locations each year, this year was Branson, year before Wichita. Not much talk about next year, not sure if they are considering a bi-annual format or what. Anyway, it was very much worth my time, effort, and expense.
 
James_Dean said:
Been a member for a year or so now. Just learning and stalking for what I wanted. I'm interested in the convention. Branson, though?
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My wife and I had the same thoughts regarding Branson. To our surprise, we came home thinking we might go back sometime, convention or not. Good food, good activities for kids, pretty scenery.

And as Jim said, it will be a different location every year (or whatever time spacing they end up using), so I doubt we'll go back there, even though I'd be all for it.
 
Good to see it's coming along. There is a trick to operating a 310 economically, slow down. :D Seriously though, 310s got their reputation as maint and fuel hogs by people running them for all they're worth. There were basically 2 operators, one flying checks or whatever Pt 135 at night working as fast as possible, and the business/private pilot who "Didn't buy this plane to go slow." If you run a 310 for a high speed cruise, you'll do 190-195 on a lot of fuel and top your engines mid time. If you slow down to 180 by leaning, you will save a crapload of fuel and your cylinders will make TBO.

When I first flew with Bob Gerace in his T310R he was a "I didn't buy this plane to go slow" guy, he was also experiencing $425hr costs and horrible maintenance and dispatch reliability issues. In one trip I showed him how to cut it in half and barely use any extra time. Three miles a minute is a very efficient speed for the 310 and is where the speed/cost curve starts heading for the vertical. The 310 will get 9+nmpg at 180.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
My wife and I had the same thoughts regarding Branson. To our surprise, we came home thinking we might go back sometime, convention or not. Good food, good activities for kids, pretty scenery.

And as Jim said, it will be a different location every year (or whatever time spacing they end up using), so I doubt we'll go back there, even though I'd be all for it.
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Branson has always been a spot to take kids, I remember going to Silver Dollar City as a kid, they had good Apple Butter.
 
Update-

I had done the training and had been signed off for my multi a few years ago, but never did the ride(long story).

When I decided to do the 310, I found a school that had a Seminole and a Frasca 142. Did five hours in the plane, four in the sim and six hours of ground this weekend. The VFR air work was very straight forward and went very well. I asked to focus on the instrument work and we spent much of our time doing cuts and approaches under the hood. I had never done sim time and found the Frasca a wonderful training tool. Pretty sensitive on pitch though that made smooth consistent control difficult. Last demo was an engine cut followed by a failing AI on an ILS to 300 ft ceilings. Got it under the deck without going full deflection only to have the instructor freeze the scenario at 100 ft to ask if I missed anything. Like maybe one of three little green lights? Argh. He gave me a few seconds to formulate a plan and let it rip. Pulled 'em back up, put her down, and went for a virtual beer. :)

I was also mildly surprised at the performance of the real Seminole. The instructor and I and near full fuel put us very near gross and pushing the front of the envelope. This was a pretty tired bird that had lived a long training life with engines at 75% of TBO. SE it did better than the book on climb and absolute ceiling. Obviously a docile trainer. Vmc was way down there. On this day and situation rudder and aileron had to be significantly limited to produce a demo before the stall.

We're going to do one more mock ride and then to the real deal later this week. Having a blast.
 
It's also good to be doing all this training before you pick up the plane. I think too many people get a multi rating, don't use it, and then buy a twin with minimal training. Not a good combination. I'd say it's better to have a wet ticket than to have an old but unused ticket.
 
Finished the multi exam last week and closed escrow today. Ted and I will be heading to the airport tomorrow to give it a go. Pirep in a new thread.
 
So.... I'm a few weeks into this adventure and thought I'd post an update.

Ted DuPuis is a wonderful CFI and I highly recommend his services to anyone wanting some training from someone who has some real world experience and is willing to put you to the test.

We picked up the plane in Virginia on a day with a barely legal overcast. We did a thorough preflight and planned on a few trips around the pattern. Whoa!!! Having a grand total of 15 hours of multi and none of those in something other than a Seneca and Seminole - I wasn't quite prepared for how quickly things happen. Two times around the patch and I seemed to start having a strange series of mechanical problems. Unreliable engines, doors that seemed to have trouble staying closed, failed alternators(actual?!?), etc. After a few circuits we had to extend our downwind for an incoming 121 flight. I was already dirty for landing and Ted found this to be a proper time to see how I would handle an engine out. I got way behind the plane and got very slow. Clean it up to get back lined up on final and get all the drag back out OEI to get her down. Had to give up lots of altitude to get the speed back. Very eye opening and a perfect training scenario.

After an hour of abuse, we filed for Ted's home base outside of Cincinnati and blasted off into the clag. Got above the layer and were bouncing through some cumulus and --- the engine troubles continued. Ted had me make some choices as though this was for real. Asking ATC for an alternate landing while holding heading and altitude OEI. I picked the closest "long" runway with 30* on our intended route and got her down. We did a nice debrief and filed for I67. The rest of the day was actual engine shutdowns, approaches, stalls, slow flight, and short field work. Ted actually bases and operates from a 2,800 ft strip surrounded by trees and hills. No problem for a 310 and an experienced pilot. For this noob it was intimidating!!!

We parked it for the night and I went home with the plan of returning later in the week to continue my training. The next few sessions included approaches under the hood, numerous OEI scenarios, night experience, and one approach with "Ron Levy, in a 747, on fire, behind you needing max speed!!!". :)

Ted signed me off and I flew back to Columbus solo. I felt like a 16 year old with a new drivers license. The next day I flew home so Spencer, IA.

Since then I've put nearly 15 hours on the plane. Back and forth to Columbus and a trip to Albany, NY the majority of the hours so far. It was nice to actually get some flying time with both engines running. :D

Thoughts on the 310 -

Things happen much faster than any previous experience I've had.

Energy management is much different than in my 'Toga. There was no real way to screw things up in that plane. The 310 is slick when clean and *dirty* with everything out. Need to be much farther ahead to do it right now. I never appreciated "the last notch is all drag" until I flew this plane.

This particular plane is highly tuned for LOP ops. It is very nice to have a "go fast" and a "go cheap" mode. Very wide range of operating choices.

The plane is much happier higher than lower. Speed is the same at 12,000 as 5,000 on less fuel.

Having nearly 2,000 lbs of useful load is very nice. I did a departure with just me and 50 gals of fuel aboard and was going upstairs at 2,000 ft/min. Fuel to go 900 miles still lets me carry 1,000 lbs. Tremendous versatility.

The seats are much more comfortable than what I had in the 'Toga.

My first passengers were very impressed with the comfort of the rear seats. It would be nice to have a rear entry door, but so far the plane has received high marks.

ADS-B weather service isn't worth a damn compared to XM data.

It is going to take me quite a few more hours to get used to glass and the G500. I am still looking at the backup ASI in my scan rather than the tape. Not consciously, but just haven't transitioned yet. The capabilities of the G500 while integrated to the GPS and autopilot is amazing.


I have been extremely happy with Wings Insurance. http://www.wingsinsurance.com/

The quote I got was much better than I had expected and the service has been outstanding. Highly encourage anyone to contact them for your insurance needs.


I'm flying the ChickenHawk to KAEG in Albuquerque next week and will hopefully have some beautiful pics to post.

Eggman
 
Thanks for the kind words about my instruction. :)

It's great to see someone who not only buys and excels in transition to a new aircraft, but then immediately gets to work flying it and doing real trips. There's nothing better for learning and proficiency than using your new plane a bunch. The 310 is a true pilot's airplane, and a great deal of fun to fly.

You make some good points about the configuration and passenger wants. Cessna seemed to feel similar with the 303, which was theoretically a replacement for the 310. The problem was they then downgraded the engines, weakened the airframe structure, and introduced it at a bad time. Personally, I think the 310 is one of those airplanes that they just "got right" and the evolution that resulted in your R model 25 years after the first one shows.

I'd like to see a 310 built today, but would do Cirrus-style doors for pilot and co-pilot, reversible seats for club-type seating if desired with a larger rear door, and of course today I'd throw in diesels. For extra fun, I'd add pressurization as an option.

Some say the 340 has all of those, but the 340 is bigger and slower/less efficient than the 310.

Welcome to the dark side. :D
 
James_Dean said:
The process is moving along nicely. Using Savvymx to help manage the prebuy. Scope of the inspection has been agreed to and shop selected. Two shops quoted 8 - 10 hours to accomplish the inspection scope. Inspection should happen within 10 - 14 days.
....
Eggman
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That's a fantastic airplane! I was wondering, how did Savvy work out with respect to your purchase process? Would you use them again on your next plane?

TIA
 
JimNtexas said:
That's a fantastic airplane! I was wondering, how did Savvy work out with respect to your purchase process? Would you use them again on your next plane?

TIA
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They recommended a few shops to do the inspection. Gave the shops a scope and list of expected inspection points, got quotes to do the work, handled the scheduling, and helped me interpret results.

Yes, would do it again.


Eggman
 
Nice Aircraft Eggman.

Just dipping toes in the water and realistically 1-2years out from ownership. I dont have any significant time in a C-310...1.5hrs only.

Would you be so kind as to advise ownership (maintenance) costs specific to the 310 series?

Not trying to derail the thread, just trying to understand peculiarities surrounding this bird.
 
Tx_Flyboy said:
Would you be so kind as to advise ownership (maintenance) costs specific to the 310 series?
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I've been managing a 310N with 520s for the past 4+ years and 600+ hours.

A 310 can run anywhere from about $300-$500/hr all-in depending on LOP/ROP ops, hangar/fuel costs, and MX practices. The plane itself is pretty reliable. I've had rivet issues and needed to replace a step. Otherwise, it pretty much works. Avionics cost the same as any other plane. De-ice doesn't cost anything until it costs a lot (needing a new boot, for example).

The planes can run about 165-195 kts (faster for turbos up high) on 20-35 gph. Depends on how you run, which engines, etc. Most people seem to spend $300-$350/hr on a 310 for everything.

I'd recommend joining TTCF (twincessna.org) if you're interested in one, but I'm glad to provide any additional information or consulting regarding 310s.
 
Tx_Flyboy said:
Nice Aircraft Eggman.

Just dipping toes in the water and realistically 1-2years out from ownership. I dont have any significant time in a C-310...1.5hrs only.

Would you be so kind as to advise ownership (maintenance) costs specific to the 310 series?

Not trying to derail the thread, just trying to understand peculiarities surrounding this bird.
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I'm planning on $500/hr and hoping for $350.

Fixed Costs-
Insurance $4,000
Hangar $2,400
Charts/subscriptions $1,500
Base annual $2,500
Upgrades $5000
Cost of Capital $12,500

Variable
Fuel/oil $180
Maintenance $75
Engines/props $45
Airframe depreciation $20


That puts costs at 150 hrs/yr at $506/hr all in. Ymmv, but to run an airframe like this you need to be thinking $50k/yr minimum and be able to spend $50k any day for a surprise.
 
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James_Dean said:
I'm planning on $500/hr and hoping for $350.

Fixed Costs-
Insurance $4,000
Hangar $2,400
Charts/subscriptions $1,500
Base annual $2,500
Upgrades $5000
Cost of Capital $12,500

Variable
Fuel/oil $180
Maintenance $75
Engines/props $45
Airframe depreciation $20


That puts costs at 150 hrs/yr at $506/hr all in. Ymmv, but to run an airframe like this you need to be thinking $50k/yr minimum and be able to spend $50k any day for a surprise.
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That's a good realistic view, and if you keep it for some years your average on upgrades should come down considerably considering you already have a bunch of the high dollar upgrades.
 
James_Dean said:
I'm planning on $500/hr and hoping for $350.

Fixed Costs-
Insurance $4,000 (This will undoubtedly vary with pilot experience. I have ~1,600hrsTT, with MEI rating & 250hr Multi-engine...my insurance quote should be lower, however i only have 1.5hrs in type.
Hangar $2,400 This is same cost for single or multi in my neck of the woods
Charts/subscriptions $1,500 Havent looked into subscriptions as i'm still a paper kinda guy :eek:
Base annual $2,500 Quite Frankly I'm surprised by this. I was expecting a base annual to be about $3000 - $4000...I guess it depends on where one takes the plane and who's performing the annual.
Upgrades $5000 I think this item is highly variable...i intend to purchase an aircraft with as much of the goodies as i want upfront...WAAS GPS, Moving Map, A/C, Engine monitors, GAAMIjectors, Functional Autopilot, etc
Cost of Capital $12,500 This will depend on purchase price. I don't see Twin prices recovering in the next year or two...not unless Diesel engine upgrades with same cost as their 100LL cousins are developed, certified & STC'd...snowball's chance in hell.

Variable
Fuel/oil $180 Fuel cost and power settings will be primary drivers of this number...and they are the biggest reason why twin prices will not be recovering anytime soon. Enter GAAMIjectors + Engine Monitors & LOP operation at sub 65% power.
Maintenance $75How are you arriving at this value? $2500/$75 = $16.67/hr. Unless of course you are planning on having major $$$ items come up every year for repair/replacement.
Engines/props $45 In my view, this number is an unknown...there is no way to know how the engine was treated by it's former operator(s). It is also unknowable whether the airplane will make it to TBO & beyond or whether an ovehaul or partial repair will be necessary prior to TBO. Engine operation & activity also plays a big role here
Airframe depreciation $20


That puts costs at 150 hrs/yr at $506/hr all in. Ymmv, but to run an airframe like this you need to be thinking $50k/yr minimum and be able to spend $50k any day for a surprise.
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Thanks for the feedback Eggman.

It would appear that aside fom fuel, running this airplane will not be all that different from running a HP single (saratoga, V-35/33, A-36 etc). The single biggest fixed cost items are an engine+prop replacement...or two. Owning one of these may not be that much farther out of reach than i had imagined.

Ted, i perused the Twin Cessna's website. Saw your name listed as the contact for an older (1956?) 310. Please PM me about this plane...again, i'm a tire kicker at this point...but who knows? :D
 
I'll PM you about General Mustard. A beauty queen she ain't, but a good starting point depending on what you want.

Insurance for you would probably be $1.5k-$3k, depending on hull value. Keep in mind, Eggman bought one of the nicest 310Rs I've ever seen that truly has all the goodies.
 
Tx_Flyboy said:
Thanks for the feedback Eggman.

It would appear that aside fom fuel, running this airplane will not be all that different from running a HP single (saratoga, V-35/33, A-36 etc). The single biggest fixed cost items are an engine+prop replacement...or two. Owning one of these may not be that much farther out of reach than i had imagined.

Ted, i perused the Twin Cessna's website. Saw your name listed as the contact for an older (1956?) 310. Please PM me about this plane...again, i'm a tire kicker at this point...but who knows? :D
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The insurance depends upon what limits you'll need.

The upgrades are variable. Call this category "miscellaneous" if you need to. If you want a true traveling machine the needs here are many. You will be paying $100/night in some places for a hangar. You will want a $1500 power tug. You will spend $1000 a few times a year on a last minute airline ticket. Stuff happens and it goes on and on. However you should plan on these expenses and count yourself fortunate to have a head start on your reserves.


The $2500 is what I've been quoted for the hours to do a squawk free annual on a 310 with the Cessna manual for gear rig followed. Any parts, oil, or time for squawks are extra and are considered in my $75/hr variable maintenance costs. IOW, I know I will have a $2,500/yr bill for an annual and then add $75/hr for maintenance. If I fly 150 hours/yr I will spend $13,750/yr on mx exclusive of upgrades and engines/props overhaul.

Subscriptions. You've said you want the goodies. To get full USA coverage for a G500, 530w, and 430w will run you +$1500/yr or you can't use them for IFR.

Use whatever you want for your cost of capital allocation. I typically use 5% ROIC which is really just a way to justify my toys. Reality is that the capital is much more valuable to me. Again, whatever works for you. As Ted said, I probably set close to the top price paid for a 310 in some time. I had no need for a project and this one had clearly been well cared for and many people with specific knowledge of the plane vouched for it. The logs, history, and MX were exceptional.

My plane has GAMI's and I do run LOP. To be realistic, figure 45 GPH for the first 30 minutes and 27 GPH thereafter. I can push 190 kts on 32 GPH with 400* CHT's or 175 kts on 25 and 330* CHT's. You could certainly slow down and save some money.

I figured $36,000 per engine going for 1700 hours and $5,000 per prop for 3,400 hours. If you figure 1400 hours and 2000 hours and $45,000 per side the number goes to $62/hr for reserves. If $17/hr makes or breaks your decision to buy a 310, well..... Also, remember that these numbers don't include MX, just overhaul.


Eggman
 
James_Dean said:
So.... I'm a few weeks into this adventure and thought I'd post an update.
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Congrats again on the plane... That's a sweet ride!

The next day I flew home so Spencer, IA.
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Spencer? I thought you were based at Le Mars! I've been to Spencer several times in the last few years to visit my wife's grandmother. Sadly, my last trip there was about a month ago for her funeral, so I may or may not be back. :( I'll let you know if I do go, though, I'd love to see you and drool on your plane. ;)

I never appreciated "the last notch is all drag" until I flew this plane.
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Doesn't the 310 have split flaps? It's all drag! :D
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Congrats again on the plane... That's a sweet ride!



Spencer? I thought you were based at Le Mars! I've been to Spencer several times in the last few years to visit my wife's grandmother. Sadly, my last trip there was about a month ago for her funeral, so I may or may not be back. :( I'll let you know if I do go, though, I'd love to see you and drool on your plane. ;)



Doesn't the 310 have split flaps? It's all drag! :D
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I did my primary training in Spencer and kept the plane there until we moved in 2006. From 2006 - 2011 I based at either LeMars or Orange City. Facilities were sparse at both locations and I moved back to Spencer in the last few years. I will be there until our new airport is built and operational in 2016 or 2017. The folks and facilities are top notch. Happy to host you anytime. My plane is kept in the red quonset and if you're there just let me know and I'll have them show you the plane.
 
James_Dean said:
I did my primary training in Spencer and kept the plane there until we moved in 2006. From 2006 - 2011 I based at either LeMars or Orange City. Facilities were sparse at both locations and I moved back to Spencer in the last few years. I will be there until our new airport is built and operational in 2016 or 2017. The folks and facilities are top notch. Happy to host you anytime. My plane is kept in the red quonset and if you're there just let me know and I'll have them show you the plane.
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Cool, thanks! There may be some more trips out there in the future, but certainly not as frequent.
 
Have had the plane home for a month an it has been a busy one. I have managed to log 38 hours in the first month after Ted signed me off. That was beyond my wildest expectations, but it has been amazing so far. We've been to Schenectady, NY to Albuquerque, NM and many points between. Been to 13,000 ft, had groundspeeds from 145 to 230kts, used the radar to pick around some small stuff, had some icing encounters, have done takeoffs near gross and 1300 under gross, and did one approach to 600 ft and 4 miles vis. The synthetic vis on the G500 is really sweet.



I could not be happier with the experience so far.
 
310s are just great airplanes, as you've discovered. :yes:
 
Well...90 days and 100 hours into this adventure and it is time for some MX.

1. Time for 500 hr checks on the slick mags on the left engine. I'm buying a new mag and having it installed. Sending the unit removed to be OH'd and will replace the other and send for OH. Will now be in a regular rotation and have a mag with me at all times for AOG issues. All mags will be timed.

2. Bought a new set of plugs to rotate in. All plugs will be pulled, cleaned, tested, and rotated back in.

3. Parking brake isn't working right.

4. Having some exhaust leakage at the slip joints.

5. Lube the gear.

6. Prop synchrophaser not working.

7. Dress some nicks on the props.

Everything else has been great. I expect it will be a 4 AMU week before it is all said and done. Still loving this amazing machine.
 
James_Dean said:
If you look at the attachment, it's doing 189 kts @ 26.1GPH at 9,000. That is 62% power per the book(and the JPI). I'll take that all day long.

Throw in the FIKI and a 1950 useful(nearly 1000 lbs with full fuel) and I'm thinking this thing should travel well. I love the idea of being 500 under gross for departures.
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You can get to 21-22gph at 180 and your engines will just be solid on the pipe, loafing clean and cool. Just sayin, you can take it to TBO with or without a top depending how clean and cool you keep not only the heads but the valves as well. Carbon and lead are the enemies of your exhaust valves, seats, and guides. Your family looks like they enjoy being in the plane, an extra 15 minutes and you can maximize your efficiency from both a fuel and long term maintenance cost standing.
 
Mason said:
As long as you put the gear down before touching down.
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Yep.:rofl: Although it did maximize ROI.

BTW, can anyone tell me why when I check into this thread I get a strange log in authentication? I'm on a brand new iPad Air2, fully up to date.:dunno: this is the second time. dev.aspenavionics.com...:dunno:

image.jpg
 
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