New Plane Search - Seneca

James_Dean

James_Dean

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Messages
2,113
Location
Iowa
Display Name
Display name:
Eggman
I've started the search to fill my newly desolate hangar. I have settled on either a Seneca II or III to meet my expectations of performance and costs. My thoughts so far -

1. Can't believe how unresponsive some sellers are. I've made contacts to six ads and only one has resulted in a reasonable dialog. I've left two messages for two sellers with zero response in five days.

2. Most sellers are pretty attached to their aircraft based upon current market conditions. It is common to find listings 20% - 50% above average of Vref, blue book, and NAAA evaluator.

3. Surprised at the number of birds that have boots and hot props, but hot plate is missing/unavailable.

4. Inactivity on flightaware is a chronic issue. Many ads have tail #'s that haven't seen an IFR flight in a year.

5. Two sellers I talked to wanted sale to be as is/where is with no pre-buy and they wanted Vref+... Huh?


Any leads are appreciated.

Eggman
 
Here's my advise

PA-30

Look for more plane then a seneca
breen_sideondokb6aemal.jpg
 
James_Dean said:
3. Surprised at the number of birds that have boots and hot props, but hot plate is missing/unavailable.
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Probably because it broke and the owner didn't feel like coughing up $5600 to replace it with another one.

4. Inactivity on flightaware is a chronic issue. Many ads have tail #'s that haven't seen an IFR flight in a year.
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I wouldn't take flightaware as the gospel. If they blocked the feed at the FAA level through BARR, they wouldn't even show up as 'blocked'. But most likely your assumption is correct and the planes have been rotting in the hangar for the past year.

And yes, twin owners are for the most part delusional about the market value of their planes.
 
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Well now you know how the game is played and what to expect from the opposition. You should take some solace in knowing that only a very small percentage of listed planes ever change hands, so don't be surprised or disappointed when the seller's behavior makes it pretty clear that his plane will be one of those that continues to sit in his hangar.

James_Dean said:
I've started the search to fill my newly desolate hangar. I have settled on either a Seneca II or III to meet my expectations of performance and costs. My thoughts so far -

1. Can't believe how unresponsive some sellers are. I've made contacts to six ads and only one has resulted in a reasonable dialog. I've left two messages for two sellers with zero response in five days.

2. Most sellers are pretty attached to their aircraft based upon current market conditions. It is common to find listings 20% - 50% above average of Vref, blue book, and NAAA evaluator.

3. Surprised at the number of birds that have boots and hot props, but hot plate is missing/unavailable.

4. Inactivity on flightaware is a chronic issue. Many ads have tail #'s that haven't seen an IFR flight in a year.

5. Two sellers I talked to wanted sale to be as is/where is with no pre-buy and they wanted Vref+... Huh?


Any leads are appreciated.

Eggman
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Well now you know how the game is played and what to expect from the opposition. You should take some solace in knowing that only a very small percentage of listed planes ever change hands, so don't be surprised or disappointed when the seller's behavior makes it pretty clear that his plane will be one of those that continues to sit in his hangar.
Click to expand...


I get it. My only pressure is that I have to close in 180 days to make my 1031 exchange or I gotta pay the nut to Uncle Sugar on a fully depreciated bird I just sold.
 
James_Dean said:
No FIKI.
More fuel for same speed(or less).
More difficult to support.
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There are booted ones, not that hard to support, cheaper to run, also handles more like a sports car then a trainer twin. Ether way, to each their own, just thought Id through it out there
 
James_Dean said:
More fuel for same speed(or less).
Click to expand...

You seem to have that one backwards.

The PA30 will do 160KTAS on 16gph, don't think a Seneca can beat that.

The Seneca can carry more, has better one engine performance at altitude and offers the option of legal FIKI. Given the homebase of eggman, particularly the latter is a key feature for a business aircraft.
 
Dean, have you considered a 310? I'd suggest a pm to Ted DuPuis who is pretty knowledgable about the plane. I'll also call a local CFI who may be interested in selling his Seneca.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
There are booted ones, not that hard to support, cheaper to run, also handles more like a sports car then a trainer twin. Ether way, to each their own, just thought Id through it out there
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It sounds like he wants/needs FIKI. You may find a de-iced Twinkie, but AFAIK, the PA30 was never certified.

Otherwise, unless you really need the payload, I would take the Twinkie over a Seneca any day.

For me, I needed the payload, so we went with the de-ice Baron.

If you need payload and FIKI, I'd expand your search to include 310Rs. If budget supports, might look at FIKI Barons.
 
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weilke said:
Probably because it broke and the owner didn't feel like coughing up $5600 to replace it with another one.
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I've heard they are running closer to $8k for just the bloody plate (not including install).
 
Fearless Tower said:
It sounds like he wants/needs FIKI. You may find a de-iced Twinkie, but AFAIK, the PA30 was never certified.

Otherwise, unless you really need the payload, I would take the Twinkie over a Seneca any day.

For me, I needed the payload, so we went with the de-ice Baron.

If you need payload and FIKI, I'd expand your search to include 310Rs. If budget supports, might look at FIKI Barons.
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Most of my 700 hours is in a PA-32 so a transition to the seneca is a natural. I've got five kids so a twinkie doesn't really fit the bill.

Exclusive of training, the mission for this aircraft will be primarily business trips that require a reasonable level of dispatch. I'm currently doing 150 legs a year with United and goal is to cut that down. Yes, I understand the costs of what I'm contemplating. I'm budgeting $500/hr all in for 150 hours/yr.

a. 70% of the flights will be 250 - 500 nm and will be with one or two aboard.

b. 10% will be 400 nm with seats full(wife and kids). I'm aware of ZFW considerations with a II and range limitations at gross weight.

c. 10% will be +1000 nm with one or two aboard.

d. 10% will be 150nm with three - four up.


Secondary goal is to be reasonably insurable in a cabin class aircraft in a few years.

I'm looking at Barons also, but the FIKI requirement makes the purchase price quite a bit higher. While I could swing it, it really drives insurance and depreciation quite a bit higher and I'm not sure I can justify it. With the mission outlined above, I think that while the baron has the speed advantage the turbos will be of enough use at FL190 - 210 to make a dent in that advantage. I'm also a big guy and find the quarters in a baron a bit more cramped. The 310 is a tough sell for me as the MX stories are stuff of legend. The guys who has been wrenching on my plane for 10 years is pushing me away from them. I also live in a very windy part of the world that tends to punish the landing gear of imprecise pilots. I'd like to think I'm better than average, but don't have a big enough ego to say that I'm perfect. The family also loves club seating.

I have considered many options and have been contemplating this move for a few years and I believe the Seneca fits my mission and comfort level the best at this time. However, if the right Baron came along.... I see that TAT is working on turbonormalizing the 58.... hmmm....

Eggman
 
I would not consider a Twinkie for de-ice. Last I heard, wing boots for those run $20k each. You don't have to change them often, but...

I definitely would consider a 310. Pluses and minuses vs. the Seneca, but I think more pluses. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat about it. I'd also be glad to take you for a flight in our 310N next time you're out in Ohio. We're at 3 years of ownership with this bird, and the maintenance fables are overblown.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It sounds like he wants/needs FIKI. You may find a de-iced Twinkie, but AFAIK, the PA30 was never certified.
Click to expand...

The original POH lists the equipment required for operation in known icing. Later the FAA by fiat invalidated those provisions.
 
Ah, yes, a buyer-rep's favorite client.;)

James_Dean said:
I get it. My only pressure is that I have to close in 180 days to make my 1031 exchange or I gotta pay the nut to Uncle Sugar on a fully depreciated bird I just sold.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
You should take some solace in knowing that only a very small percentage of listed planes ever change hands, so don't be surprised or disappointed when the seller's behavior makes it pretty clear that his plane will be one of those that continues to sit in his hangar.
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"Of COURSE I've had the airplane for sale, honey, but no one seems interested in buying it..."
 
Ken Ibold said:
"Of COURSE I've had the airplane for sale, honey, but no one seems interested in buying it..."
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"Just a bunch of low-ballers, I'm not taking a dime less than I have in this beauty!" All it needs is a good buffing, some seat covers and an annual!:yikes:
 
wabower said:
Well now you know how the game is played and what to expect from the opposition. You should take some solace in knowing that only a very small percentage of listed planes ever change hands, so don't be surprised or disappointed when the seller's behavior makes it pretty clear that his plane will be one of those that continues to sit in his hangar.
Click to expand...

I had been looking at a couple different Cubs, and each owner gave me the feeling that they wanted to put there plane on the market so they could brag about what they had.... Not sell it.

I ended up going into a partnership with an old instructor of mine... The cub is a blast to fly, and an hours flight gets you to pattern altitude as well :D
 
Looking to buy myself, I am amazed at the number of C172's with completely runout engines wanting $40K plus. They just sit there.
 
"Compressions in the 70's, uses no oil, makes no metal, I'd fly it anywhere in the country tomorrow without hesitation."

Morgan3820 said:
Looking to buy myself, I am amazed at the number of C172's with completely runout engines wanting $40K plus. They just sit there.
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wabower said:
"Compressions in the 70's, uses no oil, makes no metal, I'd fly it anywhere in the country tomorrow without hesitation."
Click to expand...

That does not make it worth $40K.
Value of a run out engine is core value, even if it is still running strong.
 
"That's what it's worth to me. I figure it only takes one buyer at my price. Sonny."

BillTIZ said:
That does not make it worth $40K.
Value of a run out engine is core value, even if it is still running strong.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
"That's what it's worth to me. I figure it only takes one buyer at my price. Sonny."
Click to expand...

"None of the others out there were loved like mine. It got everything it needed and my A&P was top notch. What AD are you talking about? I've never heard of it."
 
Ted DuPuis said:
"None of the others out there were loved like mine. It got everything it needed and my A&P was top notch. What AD are you talking about? I've never heard of it."
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'Boy, I have been doing this for many years, V-ref allways lowballs planes and doesn't account for condition'.
 
"I see your point, old-timer, and also see that you've been trying to sell this pup for three years while telling everybody 'I know what it's worth.'

What's wrong with this picture?"

weilke said:
'Boy, I have been doing this for many years, V-ref allways lowballs planes and doesn't account for condition'.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
"I see your point, old-timer, and also see that you've been trying to sell this pup for three years while telling everybody 'I know what it's worth.'

What's wrong with this picture?"
Click to expand...

"You damn kids. Get off my lawn!"
 
Too funny.

Guy got ticked at me today because I discounted(slightly) the value of a GNS480 because it was discontinued and might get a bit harder to support in the relatively near future. "BS. Garmin will support that for 30 years!"

Another one I sent the NAAA evaluation and Vref on their bird. "You may want to consider the relatively low total time of the aircraft, the fact that it was never used as a training aircraft or in commercial operations, and the limited number of people who operated the aircraft." This on a bird that has a 700 hour engine that has four jugs at 60 or below and boots that are 34 years old.

Also heard today on an inop Bendix 160 radar. "Shouldn't cost more than $1,200 to fix it." Uh huh.

Eggman
 
"Well, whatever you think the radar will cost sounds good to me and I know how to make it work since we've done it many times before. We'll just escrow $10k of the purchase price as a contingency and send it to the shop for repair. Whatever they charge will come out of the escrow and you get whatever is left over.

Just sign here, press hard, third copy is yours."

James_Dean said:
Too funny.

Guy got ticked at me today because I discounted(slightly) the value of a GNS480 because it was discontinued and might get a bit harder to support in the relatively near future. "BS. Garmin will support that for 30 years!"

Another one I sent the NAAA evaluation and Vref on their bird. "You may want to consider the relatively low total time of the aircraft, the fact that it was never used as a training aircraft or in commercial operations, and the limited number of people who operated the aircraft." This on a bird that has a 700 hour engine that has four jugs at 60 or below and boots that are 34 years old.

Also heard today on an inop Bendix 160 radar. "Shouldn't cost more than $1,200 to fix it." Uh huh.

Eggman
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
"Well, whatever you think the radar will cost sounds good to me and I know how to make it work since we've done it many times before. We'll just escrow $10k of the purchase price as a contingency and send it to the shop for repair. Whatever they charge will come out of the escrow and you get whatever is left over.

Just sign here, press hard, third copy is yours."
Click to expand...

"I'm only interested in as-is, where-is, and you're not going to find a plane like this anywhere else."
 
"Well to be honest, I wasn't really looking for another one like this anyway, since there are so many others available that are much better and priced more reasonably. YMMF."

better
Ted DuPuis said:
"I'm only interested in as-is, where-is, and you're not going to find a plane like this anywhere else."
Click to expand...
 
Well.... Ted won me over. Terms of the deal have been agreed to and prebuy will commence asap. I paid too much, but it has the right bells and whistles and the current owner is moving up to something bigger which is usually a good sign.

Wish me luck getting through the purchase process and the 25 hours of dual the insurance company wants. I'm a pretty excited little camper right now. :goofy::yes::D

And yes, I'm going into this eyes wide open on what it is going to cost to run this thing.

Eggman
 

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Nice, enjoy it and keep it 180 or under LOP and you'll even like her efficiency.
 
Wayne... now there's a name we don't see much around here any more. I do so miss that sweet old man.

:lol:
 
Great looking R model, I had one in the early 90's it was a great airplane! I love the panel!!:yes: You won't know if you paid too much for about 9-12 months. :D
James_Dean said:
Well.... Ted won me over. Terms of the deal have been agreed to and prebuy will commence asap. I paid too much, but it has the right bells and whistles and the current owner is moving up to something bigger which is usually a good sign.

Wish me luck getting through the purchase process and the 25 hours of dual the insurance company wants. I'm a pretty excited little camper right now. :goofy::yes::D

And yes, I'm going into this eyes wide open on what it is going to cost to run this thing.

Eggman
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that is a beautiful airplane.
I have about 20 hrs in a 310Q that a friend used to own.
Spectacular flyer...
Enjoy!!
 
Congrats,good looking airplane,wish you luck with it.
 
Damn tire kickers always coming in here offering my 1/2 my asking price!
 
Henning said:
Nice, enjoy it and keep it 180 or under LOP and you'll even like her efficiency.
Click to expand...

If you look at the attachment, it's doing 189 kts @ 26.1GPH at 9,000. That is 62% power per the book(and the JPI). I'll take that all day long.

Throw in the FIKI and a 1950 useful(nearly 1000 lbs with full fuel) and I'm thinking this thing should travel well. I love the idea of being 500 under gross for departures.
 
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