new pilot scenario question

[eman1200]

Yesterday I flew (with a passenger!) from Lake Norman (14A) back to Wilgrove (8A6). I flew over Concord Regional (JQF) whose Class D ceiling is 3200', giving me 400' between the Delta ceiling and the floor of Charlotte's Bravo. Now I know if I fly higher than 3200 I don't even have to talk to Concord, but I chose to call them up. I told them I'd like to fly directly over the field at 3400 on our way back to Wilgrove. They replied "transition approved".
So first of all, first time I'd heard "transition", I have to assume he meant transitioning over his airspace.
Second, would you have even called them up in the first place or maybe just tuned in their frequency? I think I was just being safe and getting us on their radar, even though technically I wasn't really their responsibility.

Final random thought about this flight....it was definitely outside of my normal comfort level as far as wx goes.....ceilings were lowering (nothing dangerous, lowest reported was 4000 and I knew I wouldn't fly higher than 3500 if even that), less than 10m vis and light rain the whole time. I think it was good to fly in just for the exposure, and I made the decision to fly knowing I was always very close to an airport, should the cloud layer have dropped on us.

Ok, my main question here is about flying over the Delta airspace and contacting the tower. Thoughts?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

It's been argued both ways, and depending on the tower they will or will not care.

Probably better to talk to them since you had bravo above and were tight on the top of the D. Had you been at 5000 feet or something, that would be different.

 

[alfadog]

Absolutely I would have contacted the Delta tower and I would have flow at least 500 ft below the floor of the Bravo as they can vector IFR aircraft right down to that floor.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Yesterday I flew (with a passenger!) from Lake Norman (14A) back to Wilgrove (8A6). I flew over Concord Regional (JQF) whose Class D ceiling is 3200', giving me 400' between the Delta ceiling and the floor of Charlotte's Bravo. Now I know if I fly higher than 3200 I don't even have to talk to Concord, but I chose to call them up. I told them I'd like to fly directly over the field at 3400 on our way back to Wilgrove. They replied "transition approved".
So first of all, first time I'd heard "transition", I have to assume he meant transitioning over his airspace.
Second, would you have even called them up in the first place or maybe just tuned in their frequency? I think I was just being safe and getting us on their radar, even though technically I wasn't really their responsibility.

Final random thought about this flight....it was definitely outside of my normal comfort level as far as wx goes.....ceilings were lowering (nothing dangerous, lowest reported was 4000 and I knew I wouldn't fly higher than 3500 if even that), less than 10m vis and light rain the whole time. I think it was good to fly in just for the exposure, and I made the decision to fly knowing I was always very close to an airport, should the cloud layer have dropped on us.

Ok, my main question here is about flying over the Delta airspace and contacting the tower. Thoughts?

Normally, towers don't care (and sometimes get annoyed) if you call them up when you overfly their airspace. In your particular case, since you were squeezed between Class D and Class B, the tower was giving you some leeway by allowing you to descend in to Class D if you wanted. What would I have done personally? Depends on the altitude I needed. If I wanted to stay high, I would have called approach for a Bravo clearance, or called tower for a Delta transition and flown in within their airspace to remain well clear of Bravo.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I were calling anyone in that situation, I'd call Charlotte Approach, not Concord Tower. Talking to Tower while flying above or outside Tower's airspace is really a waste of both your time and Tower's. Tower has no real way of providing any information on what's going on above their airspace, but Charlotte's radar should see everyone (unless someone's violating the rules on transponders underneath Class B, the exception in 91.215(b)(3) notwithstanding) and within the limits of their workload, they'll give you advisories on anyone coming your way. So, while you're not legally required to talk to anyone, your safest choice in that situation is to talk to Approach, not Tower.

 

[MAKG1]

"Transition approved" means transition through their airspace, and I would have suggested taking advantage of that.

You aren't really required to get clearance into Class D (only, to be in contact), but in practice, you'll either get "transition approved" (maybe with a restriction -- such as cross midfield at or above 2000), or "remain clear class D." If you get the latter, you do have to stay out unless it's an emergency. Avoiding Class B is not an emergency, but avoiding a jet straying too close to the floor might be.

FYI, Ron's advice is really the right thing to do. Approach may respond to your contact with "cleared into Class B," in which case your problem is solved. This is actually reasonably likely -- dependent on controller workload -- unless you're near an extended centerline of an active runway. Perhaps even without you asking (I've had that happen).

Don't be afraid of Class B. Lots of us had instructors that tried to put the fear of God into us about that. But it's truly easier to transition than to avoid. Just do what they say, or ask them to say something else (one new pilot over here had that experience -- "remain clear of Class B" was given, but there were clouds below the floor -- the magic word "unable" got him a clearance).

 

[jordane93]

Don't be afraid of Class B. Lost of us had instructors that tried to put the fear of God into us about that. But it's truly easier to transition than to avoid. Just do what they say, or ask them to say something else (one new pilot over here had that experience -- "remain clear of Class B" was given, but there were clouds below the floor -- the magic word "unable" got him a clearance).

This. Even if clouds are not a factor, don't get tripped up by the Class B. I've gotten transitions over the NY Bravo countless times and controllers always try to be as accomodating as possible

 

[Sac Arrow]

Captain Ron is correct, although in this particular case if I call up ATC I would explicitly state my intention to transition through either B or D just to avoid any confusion. If you just call up ATC for flight following, you aren't necessarily automatically cleared through class D airspace by virtue of two way communication. It depends on whether they provide approach services within Class D - some do, some don't.

If you state your intent to transit class D, they will either have to coordinate your transit for you or tell you to stay clear of it. Otherwise, you might hear "maintain at or above 3,200 feet over Class D", which is a roundabout way of saying you aren't cleared in to it.

 

[eman1200]

thanks y'all. definitely isn't an "afraid of bravo" issue. it was just a relatively short flight and the (my) prefered flight path to avoid some other things, like high towers in the area etc. appreciate the input.

 

[poadeleted20]

Captain Ron is correct, although in this particular case if I call up ATC I would explicitly state my intention to transition through either B or D just to avoid any confusion.

What if your intention was to go between them (above the D and below the B as the OP was doing) rather than through one or the other?

If you just call up ATC for flight following, you aren't necessarily automatically cleared through class D airspace by virtue of two way communication. It depends on whether they provide approach services within Class D - some do, some don't.

The ATC Handbook requires controllers providing flight following to an aircraft which will go through D-space to either coordinate the transition with Tower, tell you to avoid the D-space, hand the aircraft off to Tower, or terminate radar service and tell the aircraft to obtain its own coordination through the D-space with Tower. So, you don't need to worry about it -- they'll tell you if you need to do something other than what you're doing.

 

[alfadog]

My statement assumed that you did not want to talk to the Bravo for whatever reason. Personally, I fly under the Miami Bravo shelves all the time without talking to anyone. If you did not want to talk to Bravo then I would have flown at about 2900' and contacted the tower for the transition. If you are talking to the Bravo then they will tell you what to do.

 

[docmirror]

I run into a similar situation with Sugarland west of Houston, and also with Alliance west of Ft Worth pretty often. I don't call either of them. If I were to call someone it would be appr and coordinate any B entry with them, rather than the tower. Mostly, I just fly my plane, and if I'm clear of their airspace, I'm clear of their airspace.

 

[Clark1961]

Absolutely I would have contacted the Delta tower and I would have flow at least 500 ft below the floor of the Bravo as they can vector IFR aircraft right down to that floor.

A minor point that may be a safety issue - and something I've encountered - is that the approach folks don't necessarily care about the Bravo floor when vectoring IFR traffic.

I was on FF under the DEN Bravo when Approach brought a twin in under the Bravo shelf because of airline traffic above. The only problem was that I was 1,000' AGL and Approach wanted me to go lower to accommodate their plans for the IFR twin. DEN has some really good controllers but I certainly didn't have one on that day.

 

[Sac Arrow]

What if your intention was to go between them (above the D and below the B as the OP was doing) rather than through one or the other?

The ATC Handbook requires controllers providing flight following to an aircraft which will go through D-space to either coordinate the transition with Tower, tell you to avoid the D-space, hand the aircraft off to Tower, or terminate radar service and tell the aircraft to obtain its own coordination through the D-space with Tower. So, you don't need to worry about it -- they'll tell you if you need to do something other than what you're doing.

1. Well then, tell them so.

2. Yes I understand that. The situation to which I was referring is where ATC gives you an altitude restriction, but doesn't explicitly tell you to stay out of Class D airspace. Since flight following directives are advisory in nature, one might think it is okay to descend in to Class D airspace when it is not. I know someone that busted airspace in that exact manner.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

If I am not on Flight Following, I tend to call up and request transition through Class D airports but I am surrounded by them so even for little 20 min flights, I tend to fly through them.

 

[MAKG1]

2. Yes I understand that. The situation to which I was referring is where ATC gives you an altitude restriction, but doesn't explicitly tell you to stay out of Class D airspace. Since flight following directives are advisory in nature, one might think it is okay to descend in to Class D airspace when it is not. I know someone that busted airspace in that exact manner.

When in doubt, ask. Or at least notify.

It is NOT necessarily correct to contact Tower to transition a Class D airspace. There is at least one Class D airspace that has no tower at all (KVUO), and it is common for the top thousand or so feet to be controlled by Approach.

The actual reg (14 CFR 91.129) says to contact "the ATC facility providing services." That will almost certainly be Tower close to the ground. It may not be at 2300 AGL. Just do it far enough out that you can tolerate the handoff.

It's common at PAO for PAO to control portions of NUQ airspace, especially west of the NUQ field. This can change from hour to hour. It's not that unusual on a busy day to overfly NUQ at 800 AGL, while talking to PAO.

 

[poadeleted20]

My statement assumed that you did not want to talk to the Bravo for whatever reason. Personally, I fly under the Miami Bravo shelves all the time with talking to anyone. If you did not want to talk to Bravo then I would have flown at about 2900' and contacted the tower for the transition. If you are talking to the Bravo then they will tell you what to do.

Why would you drop down into the JQF D-space and get in the way of what's happening there when you can fly between the B and D and not be in any controller's hair?

 

[poadeleted20]

1. Well then, tell them so.

Tell whom? Tower? They don't care what's happening above the ceiling of their D-space. CLT Approach? Great -- talk to them and get flight following.

2. Yes I understand that. The situation to which I was referring is where ATC gives you an altitude restriction, but doesn't explicitly tell you to stay out of Class D airspace. Since flight following directives are advisory in nature, one might think it is okay to descend in to Class D airspace when it is not. I know someone that busted airspace in that exact manner.

Only if one has not read 14 CFR 91.123 and the Karas interpretation. If you're getting flight following and given an altitude instruction, you are legally bound to obey it, even in the E-space between the top of JQF's D and the base of CLT's B.

A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to communicate with ATC; however, if a pilot is communicating with ATC and ATC issues an instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction.

If CLT gives you an altitude restriction, even in the E-space between the D and B, you cannot legally leave that altitude and descend into JQF's D-space without further permission or an inflight emergency requiring immediate descent.

 

[poadeleted20]

If I am not on Flight Following, I tend to call up and request transition through Class D airports

That's a good idea if you're actually going through their airspace, but a waste of everyone's time if you're going over their airspace. They are highly unlikely to know what's going on up there, and you're not talking to the people who probably do.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Tell whom? Tower? They don't care what's happening above the ceiling of their D-space. CLT Approach? Great -- talk to them and get flight following.
Only if one has not read 14 CFR 91.123 and the Karas interpretation. If you're getting flight following and given an altitude instruction, you are legally bound to obey it, even in the E-space between the top of JQF's D and the base of CLT's B.
If CLT gives you an altitude restriction, even in the E-space between the D and B, you cannot legally leave that altitude and descend into JQF's D-space without further permission or an inflight emergency requiring immediate descent.

Yes, yes and yes.

 

[eman1200]

Why would you drop down into the JQF D-space and get in the way of what's happening there when you can fly between the B and D and not be in any controller's hair?

yep, and that was my goal, to be out of each of their hair (JQF D and CLT B). however then I thought, well, I'll just tell Concord what my intentions were. I was almost saying "I know I'm not technically in your airspace or your responsibility, but I'm just passing through and listening on your frequency". no expectations out of them.
I'm not sure if I did anything wrong per se, but I didn't think it hurt anyone either.

 

[poadeleted20]

yep, and that was my goal, to be out of each of their hair (JQF D and CLT B ). however then I thought, well, I'll just tell Concord what my intentions were. I was almost saying "I know I'm not technically in your airspace or your responsibility, but I'm just passing through and listening on your frequency". no expectations out of them.
I'm not sure if I did anything wrong per se, but I didn't think it hurt anyone either.

I agree, but my point is that it didn't help anyone, either, whereas getting flight following from CLT Approach would help both you and CLT Approach.

 

[MAKG1]

yep, and that was my goal, to be out of each of their hair (JQF D and CLT B). however then I thought, well, I'll just tell Concord what my intentions were. I was almost saying "I know I'm not technically in your airspace or your responsibility, but I'm just passing through and listening on your frequency". no expectations out of them.
I'm not sure if I did anything wrong per se, but I didn't think it hurt anyone either.

Get the idea out of your head that talking to Approach is "in their hair."

If they are talking to you, they know your intentions. If they are not talking to you, they get to guess.

I've only had Approach tell me to get lost twice. Once, they got seriously slammed by a lot of approaching traffic at night between Sacramento and Livermore. The other time, an Asiana 777 closed SFO botching a landing (3 fatal) and there were diversions all over the west coast.

It's not unusual for TRACon to assign different controllers to approaches and departures to/from the primary airport as are used for transitioning any of the sectors, in Class B. So, the really busy controllers aren't talking directly to you, and the other controllers are keeping you away from them, even when cleared into Class B.

 

[alfadog]

Why would you drop down into the JQF D-space and get in the way of what's happening there when you can fly between the B and D and not be in any controller's hair?

Couple reasons. 1) below 3000' no hemispheric altitude rule. 2) Miami Bravo controller supervisor said they prefer that VFR traffic not talking to them not hug the bottom of the shelf.

 

[EppyGA]

As far as FF goes CLT approach is great. Coming up from the Atlanta area I always get a nice view of CLT as I go over and the city as I go by and turn toward JQF. Leaving JQF usually means heading out toward Lincolnton and the big sticks out there with a clearance into the Bravo at some point.

 

[poadeleted20]

Couple reasons. 1) below 3000' no hemispheric altitude rule. 2) Miami Bravo controller supervisor said they prefer that VFR traffic not talking to them not hug the bottom of the shelf.

I'm not familiar with the situation in Miami, but I think Miami would rather you talk with them whether you're hugging the bottom or not. You're only a problem for them if you're not talking to them, because then they don't know what to expect.

 

[alfadog]

I'm not familiar with the situation in Miami, but I think Miami would rather you talk with them whether you're hugging the bottom or not. You're only a problem for them if you're not talking to them, because then they don't know what to expect.

Yeah, but I prefer not to talk to anyone if I am flying VFR. I assumed that if the OP was not talking to the TRACON, it was by choice. And if I were overflying that airport with that narrow band between the top of D and the bottom of B then I would give the B a bit more berth and call up the D. My response was based on the very specific set of conditions given by the OP, i.e. not in contact with the Bravo and overflying the Delta; in actual fact, I would probably skirt the Delta also.

 

[Skip Miller]

I'm not familiar with the situation in Miami, but I think Miami would rather you talk with them whether you're hugging the bottom or not. You're only a problem for them if you're not talking to them, because then they don't know what to expect.

Correct. The top of the NYC Bravo is 7,000. I've gone over the Bravo several times at 7,500 (the appropriate hemispheric rule altitude) with an 8500 foot ceiling... and judging from the service I got and the amount of traffic exiting the Bravo out of the 7000 top, I do believe they really want to be talking to you. -Skip

 

[MAKG1]

Having flown over SFO Class B at 10500 with flight following, and heard all the departing jets getting restricted below 10,000, I'm virtually certain they want to be talking to you.

 

[docmirror]

Well, I want to fly to my destination with as few diversions, and cutouts as possible. A user of the NAS is a user of the NAS. The classes of airspace were put in place to promote safety, and those rules are working just fine. If the feds want to merge a D space with a B space, they can do that. If they want to push the tops of the B all the way to 18.5k then they can do that. If all planes in the NAS have to be under positive control, then lets just do that.

Remember - N Korea has a perfect GA safety record.

 

[MarkZ]

If you are near Bravo airspace, we would rather talk to you. At least then we know your intentions.

 

[alfadog]

If you are near Bravo airspace, we would rather talk to you. At least then we know your intentions.

Yes, and cops want to know what is my backpack, also, if I am walking near them. Point being that folks that are in the business of knowing like to know. Doesn't mean I have to bother about their needs and likes. I am more comfortable and happier walking around and flying around without reporting in. Thank goodness for America!

 

[eman1200]

Yes, and cops want to know what is my backpack, also, if I am walking near them. Point being that folks that are in the business of knowing like to know. Doesn't mean I have to bother about their needs and likes. I am more comfortable and happier walking around and flying around without reporting in. Thank goodness for America!

hhmm, ok. well, uh, I think in this case I was more comfortable letting JQF know what I was doing. whether they chose to care or not didn't matter much after that, although I know those guys do a great job over there. I'm aware I could have flown above them and below the Big B and not talk to anyone, this is just how I chose to do it.

 

[MAKG1]

Yes, and cops want to know what is my backpack, also, if I am walking near them. Point being that folks that are in the business of knowing like to know. Doesn't mean I have to bother about their needs and likes. I am more comfortable and happier walking around and flying around without reporting in. Thank goodness for America!

Are you kidding?

They know where you are. You're on radar, and you have a transponder.

What they want to know is what you're intending on doing.

That's like signaling a lane change, not someone spying on you.

It really is the least you can do to give the nearby jets some knowledge of what you intend on doing.

 

[docmirror]

How complicated is this? I'm going from my origin, to my destination, and I will or will not transit your airspace. If I choose to transit your airspace(unlikely), I will call you. If I don't call you I will stay out of your way.

It's amazing - class B, C, D airspace has been around for decades, but still people don't get the concept. Big planes below the ceiling = in class B. Small planes above the ceiling = not in class B. Do big plane drivers and the FAA want more airspace restrictions? Of course they do! The airlines would love it if we all just vapoorized tomorrow so that 'Indian country' didn't exist. Gosh, sorry - but I'm not going anywhere, and if there's a GA reliever outside the B, it's there for us to use. Jeezalou.

 

[eman1200]

How complicated is this? I'm going from my origin, to my destination, and I will or will not transit your airspace. If I choose to transit your airspace(unlikely), I will call you. If I don't call you I will stay out of your way.

It's amazing - class B, C, D airspace has been around for decades, but still people don't get the concept. Big planes below the ceiling = in class B. Small planes above the ceiling = not in class B. Do big plane drivers and the FAA want more airspace restrictions? Of course they do! The airlines would love it if we all just vapoorized tomorrow so that 'Indian country' didn't exist. Gosh, sorry - but I'm not going anywhere, and if there's a GA reliever outside the B, it's there for us to use. Jeezalou.

well my apologies for being a new pilot and discussing something I encountered for the first time and thought was an interesting topic for other new pilots as well.

maybe I should go run out of gas then sue someone for it.

 

[docmirror]

well my apologies for being a new pilot and discussing something I encountered for the first time and thought was an interesting topic for other new pilots as well.

maybe I should go run out of gas then sue someone for it.

No apologies(sincere or not) needed. I was not replying to you, nor did I quote you. You've gotten some differing advice, decide what you want to do.

Please don't go run out of gas and sue someone.

 

[alfadog]

Are you kidding?

They know where you are. You're on radar, and you have a transponder.

What they want to know is what you're intending on doing.

That's like signaling a lane change, not someone spying on you.

It really is the least you can do to give the nearby jets some knowledge of what you intend on doing.

Yes, and when I am driving, any cop can see my license plate and run it and follow me around all he likes. Doesn't mean I would want to notify them regularly of my intentions. I am not in their airspace and have little inclination to call them up and check in. If you feel differently, then fine.

 

[poadeleted20]

I am not in their airspace...

Except you are in their airspace. You may not be in that portion of their airspace which is designated Class B, but you are still in their airspace. By not talking to them, you are just making life harder for them and everyone else in that airspace as well as giving up a valuable collision-avoidance tool -- and gaining absolutely nothing in return. That sounds like a poor choice to me.

 

[alfadog]

Except you are in their airspace. You may not be in that portion of their airspace which is designated Class B, but you are still in their airspace. By not talking to them, you are just making life harder for them and everyone else in that airspace as well as giving up a valuable collision-avoidance tool -- and gaining absolutely nothing in return. That sounds like a poor choice to me.

Semantics. What I gain is the peace of turning down my radio and just enjoying the airplane. That seems like quite a bit to me.