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Downcycle

Filing Flight Plan
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Downcycle
Hello, I know that there are probably many previous threads which address some of my questions, but I also know that if I don't introduce myself I will continue to lurk around for years, and just be a taker, so hopefully you guys don't mind humoring me.

I've always wanted to fly. My great grandpa, grandpa and uncle were all pilots in various branches of the military, and my grandpa opened the first public sea plane base in Washington DC (actually across the Potomac), after flying in all three theaters of WWII. I've always been really proud of their service and interested in pursuing my private pilot's license. Well, I think it's finally time. I have started reading a few books, such as:

Stick and Rudder. 1944. Langewiesche.
Flight Theory and Aerodynamics. 2000. Lewis
Flying the Private Pilot Flight Test. 1994. Fowler.
Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. 2008. FAA

I really like the Stick and Rudder book, but it seems a little dated, has anyone read this? My uncle gave it to me years ago, but being that it was published in 1944 I have to imagine that a lot has changed. I am also located in Raleigh, NC, and there is a club called Wings of Carolina that seems to be a great club.

So, here are my questions:

1. Are there any other books I should read before ground school?
2. Is ground school a requirement before flight training?
3. The club charges about $100/hour for training in a Cessna 152(including plane rental and fuel), which seems like a great price, what do you all think, is that reasonable?
4. Are there any drawbacks or benefits to training at a club rather than a traditional flight school?
5. I'm really excited about this new chapter in my life, how do I keep this excitement going?
6. Is there anything else I can be doing to prepare myself?

I'm sure there are more questions, but hopefully this is the first of many. Thanks for your help.
 
Airplanes fly the same as they did 70 years ago. The only thing that's out of date in Stick and Rudder is that he won the argument about tricycle gear.

Most people in Part 61 flight schools do self-study ground school and flight training simultaneously. Whether reading books, videos, formal classrooms, apps, etc. are right for you is a question about your learning style. For me, videos are almost always belabored, but there are a couple of places where they really help (especially, the sight picture for landing and crosswind corrections). Classrooms are too slow, and the apps are glorified videos and/or workbooks with little if any value added. I can learn fastest from a book, especially with a doodle pad nearby. YMMV.

Price questions are strongly locale dependent. I can get a wet 152 for $83/hour. $100 is not ridiculous, especially if the aircraft is in really good shape. It's a surprisingly good approximation that a reasonable rental cost is 3x the cost of fuel. On the other hand, you may find you don't fit very well (especially with an instructor) in a 152. I can only do that if my instructor is less than 120 lb. And I can't wear a kneeboard. A 172 may be necessary. I like to compare a 172 to four folding chairs in a close 2x2 array. A 152 is like two of them with the legs cut off.

How you keep the excitement going is to get in the air. As soon as possible.
 
Downcycle said:
Hello, I know that there are probably many previous threads which address some of my questions, but I also know that if I don't introduce myself I will continue to lurk around for years, and just be a taker, so hopefully you guys don't mind humoring me.

I've always wanted to fly. My great grandpa, grandpa and uncle were all pilots in various branches of the military, and my grandpa opened the first public sea plane base in Washington DC (actually across the Potomac), after flying in all three theaters of WWII. I've always been really proud of their service and interested in pursuing my private pilot's license. Well, I think it's finally time. I have started reading a few books, such as:

Stick and Rudder. 1944. Langewiesche.
Flight Theory and Aerodynamics. 2000. Lewis
Flying the Private Pilot Flight Test. 1994. Fowler.
Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. 2008. FAA

I really like the Stick and Rudder book, but it seems a little dated, has anyone read this? My uncle gave it to me years ago, but being that it was published in 1944 I have to imagine that a lot has changed. I am also located in Raleigh, NC, and there is a club called Wings of Carolina that seems to be a great club.

So, here are my questions:

1. Are there any other books I should read before ground school?
2. Is ground school a requirement before flight training?
3. The club charges about $100/hour for training in a Cessna 152(including plane rental and fuel), which seems like a great price, what do you all think, is that reasonable?
4. Are there any drawbacks or benefits to training at a club rather than a traditional flight school?
5. I'm really excited about this new chapter in my life, how do I keep this excitement going?
6. Is there anything else I can be doing to prepare myself?

I'm sure there are more questions, but hopefully this is the first of many. Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

And don't stop dreaming! I spent three years getting a pilot's cert (note I didn't say learing) and it's been by far my favorite hobby.

http://modifiedflightplan.com/
 
Welcome ! Stick and Rudder is a very good book . As far as school in your area you can visit B bar D aviation's next door to the Wings of Carolina, they are both good schools .
 
Downcycle said:
I really like the Stick and Rudder book, but it seems a little dated, has anyone read this? My uncle gave it to me years ago, but being that it was published in 1944 I have to imagine that a lot has changed.
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Nope. That book is still just as relevant today as it was when it was published. It does focus more on a taildragger, but the majority of it applies to taildragger and trike gear aircraft. I found the book extremely helpful.


1. Are there any other books I should read before ground school?
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The FAA also has a publication called the Airplane Flying Handbook, I suggest reading that as well. Pick up a copy of FAR/AIM and start studying it, especially the "suggested study sections" for private pilots, which is found in the front of the book.

2. Is ground school a requirement before flight training?
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Yes, but the method is up to you. You can go to an actual class, or do the study yourself via online course or books. I did an online course and felt it was severely lacking. I ended up picking up the Jeppesen study books and have been very impressed with them. Much more thorough than the online course I wasted my money on. The FAA doesn't really care how you get the knowledge, but of course you'll need to pass their written test before your checkride. Whatever you do, dive into it and study hard and make it quality study time. It makes a huge difference.

Quick edit - you dont' HAVE to complete ground school before you start the actual flight training. You will need to have it done before you take the FAA written test. Most students do both at the same time.

3. The club charges about $100/hour for training in a Cessna 152(including plane rental and fuel), which seems like a great price, what do you all think, is that reasonable?
Click to expand...

It's not bad. I'm training in a 152 and it's $85/hour wet, plus another $42/hour for the instructor.

4. Are there any drawbacks or benefits to training at a club rather than a traditional flight school?
Click to expand...

I'll have to defer to more experienced pilots here. I have no idea. I'm doing a "traditional flight school" and I've been happy.

5. I'm really excited about this new chapter in my life, how do I keep this excitement going?
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For me, the excitement never ends and everytime I lift off, it's just made worse. I have been an aviation crazy nut since I was 8. Now I'm 35, close to 2/3 finished, and I wish I'd have done this years ago.

Keep studying, listen to your instructor, watch all the Youtube videos you can. It's really rewarding when you do that first solo, and when you finally start to "get" things like crosswind or soft field takeoffs and landings, or be able to fluently communicate with ATC. At first it might be information overload and you might feel overwhelmed in the cockpit trying to keep track of everything. But that will go away and you'll get more comfortable with each passing hour in that seat.

6. Is there anything else I can be doing to prepare myself?
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Study, read, and gain as much knowledge as you can. It really helps with the learning curve. The instructor will be able to teach you more about the actual flying and less about the other stuff if you've been studying it.

On a side note, make sure you pick an instructor whom you like. If you feel after a lesson or two that he's not putting you at ease, or that you might not get along in any way, run. The 152 is tight and you're going to be squeezed in there for hours at a time with him/her. You want to be compatible:)

Most of all, good luck!
 
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I should have been more clear about the rental cost. It's $75 for the rental and $25 for the instruction, which based on what you're saying, sounds pretty good. I'm not extremely tall, I think I'm about an inch above average at 5'11", but maybe that's enough that I should jump up to the Warrior, which is $105/hr. I guess I can try them both out and see if it's worth the additional ~$1500 for the extra room. I'm glad to hear that Stick and Rudder is still relevant, I'm about halfway done and I am really enjoying it. I turn 30 in about 7 months, and I also wish I had started sooner, but hopefully I have many more flying years ahead of me than I've missed already, and I guess it really doesn't matter since I could never have justified the expense before now.

A follow up question I have is about some of the material covered in the Flight Theory book. This is one that I grabbed because it was one of the few at the library, as opposed to having it recommended. It has quite a bit of vector algebra, force curves, and general physics stuff. I certainly don't mind this, as I am actually pretty solid in physics, but I feel like this stuff would be more important if I were designing planes, or doing a bachelor's in aeronautics. The best analogy I can think of is studying Newtonian physics and wood mechanics in order to learn to play baseball. It may increase your abilities, but not until you are already playing at 95%, and even then it will only give you a slight edge. I could be totally wrong on this, and if so I will plan on diving in, but it seems silly to calculate how much lift I could gain by extending my wings 6 inches, when that's not really an option.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.
 
All you need to know about science is that money is the force that keeps airplanes flying. Everything else is a detail.

Downcycle said:
I should have been more clear about the rental cost. It's $75 for the rental and $25 for the instruction, which based on what you're saying, sounds pretty good. I'm not extremely tall, I think I'm about an inch above average at 5'11", but maybe that's enough that I should jump up to the Warrior, which is $105/hr. I guess I can try them both out and see if it's worth the additional ~$1500 for the extra room. I'm glad to hear that Stick and Rudder is still relevant, I'm about halfway done and I am really enjoying it. I turn 30 in about 7 months, and I also wish I had started sooner, but hopefully I have many more flying years ahead of me than I've missed already, and I guess it really doesn't matter since I could never have justified the expense before now.

A follow up question I have is about some of the material covered in the Flight Theory book. This is one that I grabbed because it was one of the few at the library, as opposed to having it recommended. It has quite a bit of vector algebra, force curves, and general physics stuff. I certainly don't mind this, as I am actually pretty solid in physics, but I feel like this stuff would be more important if I were designing planes, or doing a bachelor's in aeronautics. The best analogy I can think of is studying Newtonian physics and wood mechanics in order to learn to play baseball. It may increase your abilities, but not until you are already playing at 95%, and even then it will only give you a slight edge. I could be totally wrong on this, and if so I will plan on diving in, but it seems silly to calculate how much lift I could gain by extending my wings 6 inches, when that's not really an option.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.
Click to expand...
 
Most instructors will have their own curriculum and books that they like to teach with. I've taught with both online courses as well as books. There are pluses and minuses to both. You cannot go wrong with a FAR/AIM and reading the recommended pages for private pilot at the front which I know has already been suggested. The FAA books, Airplane Flying Handbook (the maneuvers) and The Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical knowledge (how everything else works) are also very good. Most of these you can find at the local library and they are also free in pdf form here: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/ . In all honesty, that's going to get you through almost everything you need knowledge wise for the private pilot certificate. Other things I find helpful is a Practical Test Standards book and an oral guide but dont worry about that until later. Just like learning anything, there are multiple products out there to learn on such as Jeppesen, Cessna, Sportys, Gleim, etc. You end up finding the ones you like but like I said, most instructors will tell you what they like to teach with since it could follow their lesson plans. If you know the instructor you want to learn with, go ahead and ask him/her which products they teach with whether you want to start flying today or 2 years from now. Don't be afraid to read every book you can find on the subject, instructors like to be impressed. ;)


Good luck!
Tristar

p.s. Ground training is done throughout the flight, assignments are usually given by your instructor each flight but being ahead of the game is smiled upon. Also, you asked how do you keep this excitement going. That's as easy as you make it. Learning to fly is naturally going to have its challenges but it's an accomplishment that's good for life! My biggest advice is to make friends such as at your local EAA club that have monthly meetings (the local one here has a cookout every 3rd saturday!) and of course make friends with people on here. Most don't bite. ;) We have fly-ins every year all over the country and have met many in person. Very unlike many other forums I've come across. I've known some of these guys since before I started my private pilot training and that was 10 years ago!
 
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I'll contributte the following book title to add to the library: "The Complete Private Pilot" by Bob Gardner (who is a member here). You can find that on ASA's website, www.ASA2FLY.com

Also, let's review your situation medically. Read this document, https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Guides/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf (The help file for MedXpress), and pay special attention to explanations and details about questions 17 and 18. For the freshly hatched student pilot, not knowing how the answers to these quesstions can affect your flying dream can cause mucho grande heart- and wallet-ache.

The objective is to know with 100% confidence you will pass the medical examination because you have become well informed about the process and requirements. "Bombing in" (as our Dr. Bruce Chien likes to say) with no knowledge of the process, your condition(s), and what the FAA wants to know about you, with get you stuck in deferral hell at minimum, and possibly DENIED. You don't want DENIED. Once DENIED, you are well and truely burnt and denied toast and you lose all possibly privledges of flying yourself or family.

Read Question 18 carefully... Many of the items 18a - 18k can still be issuable with additional documentation and the Special Issuance protocols. The rest are might still be doable, but if you are answering yes, you need to seek the guidance of one of the top Airman Advocate AME's like Dr. Bruce Chien.

18v is one that can trip lots of younger pilots. If you have ever been tagged with a DUI, let's hope it's just a single instance. Then it's just a paperwork hunt to get the required documents to show that was a one off, and suffucient evidence is now in place to show you do not have an alcohol problem. Even if you don't have a dependancy problem, and you were just in the wrong place, wrong time, with too much alcohol in your system, that still can put you behind the 8-ball. If there are two DUI incidents, you might still get to fly, but the burden of paperwork and proof just increased in a big way.

Now, none of this is meant to scare you from chasing your flying dream. Quite the opposite... I just want to inject to reality that is the FAA medical system and possibly save you a significant quantity of time and dollars. If you have a disqualifying condition, why spend oodles of money and time to your solo point, only to find out you cannot be issued your medical certificate? Perhaps reviewing this information saves you from a medical denial and you retain your Sport Pilot Privileges?

Or hopefully, you visit the family doc that you've not seen in a long time for a routine physical, find out what you need to know about your health, and are able to get started on getting that medical certificate.

If you have any questions about the medical process and how it affects you... feel free to add to this thread, or start a new one under the Medical Topics forum. Our resident super AME, Dr. Bruce, is one of the best resources you can find on medical issues and the FAA. He monitors that forum and is very giving of his time to answer questions and provide "long distance" guidance on what to bring to the AME for a successful outcome.

Apologies for the long post, but this is an as important point to a new student as is finding the right texts to start your knowledge journey.
 
Sounds like you picked up an aeronautical engineering book. While that might be interesting, it won't help you fly.

Another really good one -- and I really wish it was available in paper form (as web pages can be ephemeral), is "See How It Flies" by John Denker, http://www.av8n.com/how .
 
I'm nearly done with my training and the biggest thing I have noticed in checking out different schools and clubs is what works for me wont necessarily work for you.

I went with the traditional school, and I checked out 5 ( and took 5 "demo" flights), everything from the Cirrus school that was $250 per hour for the plane and $95 for the instructor to the Cessna dealer/school that charged $30 for the instructor and had planes from $75 for the oldest 172 up to $170 for a C182.
On that front I chose a school where the instructor's where not there just to build time before moving onto bigger and better careers in aviation .

I did Sporty's and Gliem online schools and study books as well as obviously FAR/AIM, ASA Private Oral exam guide, ASA PTS books, and just as many video's as I could find and watch.

I had intended to get all the ground schooling and tests done before I started flight training, but the first lesson threw that idea out the window and I flew as much as I could.

Get up in the air, its addictive and oyu will love it
 
Downcycle said:
Hello, I know that there are probably many previous threads which address some of my questions, but I also know that if I don't introduce myself I will continue to lurk around for years, and just be a taker, so hopefully you guys don't mind humoring me.

I've always wanted to fly. My great grandpa, grandpa and uncle were all pilots in various branches of the military, and my grandpa opened the first public sea plane base in Washington DC (actually across the Potomac), after flying in all three theaters of WWII. I've always been really proud of their service and interested in pursuing my private pilot's license. Well, I think it's finally time. I have started reading a few books, such as:

Stick and Rudder. 1944. Langewiesche.
Flight Theory and Aerodynamics. 2000. Lewis
Flying the Private Pilot Flight Test. 1994. Fowler.
Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge. 2008. FAA

I really like the Stick and Rudder book, but it seems a little dated, has anyone read this? My uncle gave it to me years ago, but being that it was published in 1944 I have to imagine that a lot has changed. I am also located in Raleigh, NC, and there is a club called Wings of Carolina that seems to be a great club.

So, here are my questions:

1. Are there any other books I should read before ground school?
2. Is ground school a requirement before flight training?
3. The club charges about $100/hour for training in a Cessna 152(including plane rental and fuel), which seems like a great price, what do you all think, is that reasonable?
4. Are there any drawbacks or benefits to training at a club rather than a traditional flight school?
5. I'm really excited about this new chapter in my life, how do I keep this excitement going?
6. Is there anything else I can be doing to prepare myself?

I'm sure there are more questions, but hopefully this is the first of many. Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

From the Ground Up is a GREAT one, from student to ATP, easy to read and very informative, good pictures and well written

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1560274522...v-20&linkCode=sb1&camp=212353&creative=380549
 
Have about $10K saved so that you can go straight on through. It was nice not worrying whether I was going to be able to afford to finish. Enjoy. Expensive little hobby, but very unique. There are 12 or so planes/pilots in my county of 28,000 people.
 
Downcycle said:
I really like the Stick and Rudder book, but it seems a little dated, has anyone read this? My uncle gave it to me years ago, but being that it was published in 1944 I have to imagine that a lot has changed.

It was written in 1944 and has been in print continuously since, do you think there's a reason? Single-best aviation book out there, bar none.

So, here are my questions:

1. Are there any other books I should read before ground school?

Crack a good self-study manual (a "prep" manual vs a "be a pilot" book)

2. Is ground school a requirement before flight training?

No but it does help.

3. The club charges about $100/hour for training in a Cessna 152(including plane rental and fuel), which seems like a great price, what do you all think, is that reasonable?

$75/hr wet (plane with fuel) for plane and $25 for instruction? If they're anywhere near competent jump on it.

4. Are there any drawbacks or benefits to training at a club rather than a traditional flight school?

Six of one, half-dozen of the other...

5. I'm really excited about this new chapter in my life, how do I keep this excitement going?

Take a break and just *fly* occasionally.

6. Is there anything else I can be doing to prepare myself?

Lots, but nothing I'd be concerned about now.

I'm sure there are more questions, but hopefully this is the first of many. Thanks for your help.
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Welcome.
 
I got my private, instrument and commercial through Wings of Carolina. The prices are reasonable, as is the scheduling. If you fit in the 152 I recommend you train in them for your private. Its very easy to transition into other aircraft such as the Warrior's and 172's once you get your PPL. Figure 2-3 lessons max.

Stick and Rudder is a great book to read as you are progressing through your primary training. With that, and a good textbook you should be all set to get started.

If you like reading and studying on your own, you can skip ground school. I have never set foot in a formal ground school of any kind. However - if you are the type who learns well in a classroom setting, WoC does have a good groundschool program.

Send me a PM and i'll be happy to answer any questions you have. I'll also have a look around and see what books etc... I have leftover from my private pilot training that may help you out.
 
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Downcycle said:
I'm not extremely tall, I think I'm about an inch above average at 5'11", but maybe that's enough that I should jump up to the Warrior, which is $105/hr. I guess I can try them both out and see if it's worth the additional ~$1500 for the extra room.
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From my perspective a 150/152 is a big roomy airplane. Most of my hours have been in aircraft with smaller cockpits. Weight is more of an issue than height - a big instructor would be a big problem.

At about 6' tall each, my brother and I put a lot of time in the old man's Cessna 120 including a trip to Alaska.

Many pilot and instructors buy into the fairy tales (Curved top - flat bottom - like a venturi, etc. ) published in many sources (including by the FAA) about how lift is generated and never get beyond that. But, if you want an engineering reference, I like "Introduction to Flight" John D. Anderson Jr. - pretty readable, light on the calculus. But find an older edition - current editions command text book prices.
 
AggieMike88 said:
You don't want DENIED. Once DENIED, you are well and truely burnt and denied toast and you lose all possibly privledges of flying yourself or family.
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In that instance wouldn't he at least be able to get a Sport Pilot certificate?

Also one quick other thing, I think at 5'11" you would be fine in a 152. I'm 5'8" and am not cramped at all. My instructor is 6'4" and he also fits. FWIW.

100/HR for the plane wet AND the instructor is a price I WISH I had.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
In that instance wouldn't he at least be able to get a Sport Pilot certificate?
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No. If you have been declared unfit to fly by a designee of the Administrator -- and that's what a denial is -- you are unfit to fly until that is changed.

See 14 CFR 61.23(c)(2)
 
Thanks for the answer.

That said, if, after doing pertinent research and even speaking with an AME, someone determined they would be denied, they could still persue a Sport Pilot Certificate as long as they didn't actually try to obtain a Class III or get denied for one?
 
fiveoboy01 said:
In that instance wouldn't he at least be able to get a Sport Pilot certificate?
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MAKG1 said:
No. If you have been declared unfit to fly by a designee of the Administrator -- and that's what a denial is -- you are unfit to fly until that is changed.

See 14 CFR 61.23(c)(2)
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MAKG is correct, which is why I contribute what I did to new pilots so they won't bomb and blunder into the AME's office and kill their chance at Sport Pilot.

An example for me was a pre-flying family doc physical discovered I was on the backside of pre-diabetes and got officially diagnosed with Type II.

Because I was made aware of this BEFORE I saw an AME, I had the opportunity to get my sugars under control. And you could say the desire to fly saved my life, because if I didn't have the urge to learn, who knows how long I would have let the disease run uncontrolled.

The downtime also gave me the chance to confer with Dr. Bruce, learn all that was needed, obtain that, and earn the praise of the AME I used because I was one of the few airmen in his career that had everything done right the first time. I hold a Class III medical with the SI for DM2, but am working hard to get back to regular issuance under the new CACI guidance.

And we've seen many an airman come on here with stories about they have started training, spent a decent sum, only to admit the DUI's in their past, or being labeled ADD during their child hood. And that triggers a complete stoppage of progress while they sort that out, often to an even bigger hit to the bank account.

I'd rather the student know what's required of them before they start than to spend the loads of cash to find out later a showstopper exists that keeps them out of the air.
 
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fiveoboy01 said:
Thanks for the answer.

That said, if, after doing pertinent research and even speaking with an AME, someone determined they would be denied, they could still persue a Sport Pilot Certificate as long as they didn't actually try to obtain a Class III or get denied for one?
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If you can't operate a LSA safely, you can't fly. Period. If you want to argue that you can operate one safely when the medical standards say you can't, you may have a rather tough argument on your hands.
 
I'm not trying to create that argument. I'm asking if that was a way for a less-than-honest person to get a certificate.

If the answer is yes(and I assume it is by the way your post is worded), than it would seem to me like there is a flaw in the system.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
That said, if, after doing pertinent research and even speaking with an AME, someone determined they would be denied, they could still persue a Sport Pilot Certificate as long as they didn't actually try to obtain a Class III or get denied for one?
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Yes. If you have a disqualifying condition, its basically up to you to decide if you are healthy enough to fly.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you can't operate a LSA safely, you can't fly. Period. If you want to argue that you can operate one safely when the medical standards say you can't, you may have a rather tough argument on your hands.
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LSA dumbs it down a bit. By flying light, slow equipment in day VFR only. There are lots of people who fly LSA that know they have zero chance of getting a class III due to some disqualifying condition. For the most part they do just fine.

It seems the medical standards are adjusted to the perceived level of risk. A private pilot w instrument rating can take multiple passengers across the country in all sorts of weather conditions. Night, icing conditions, low IMC, you name it. The medical standards are higher.

At least, that's my take on it. Also, many people go LSA not necessarily because they couldn't get a class III, but they could not get one without special issuance and a lot of time and recurring $$ and hassle.
 
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MAKG1 said:
If you can't operate a LSA safely, you can't fly. Period. If you want to argue that you can operate one safely when the medical standards say you can't, you may have a rather tough argument on your hands.
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What medical standards say you can't?

FAA class 3 or FAA class 1 or the standards that the FAA has laid out for light sport aircraft operation?

If you can't get a class 1 medical, does that invalidate your class 3?

Hate all you want, but the FAA has not defined the class 3, 2, or 1 medical as the standard for LSA, glider, or part 103.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
What medical standards say you can't?

FAA class 3 or FAA class 1 or the standards that the FAA has laid out for light sport aircraft operation?

If you can't get a class 1 medical, does that invalidate your class 3?

Hate all you want, but the FAA has not defined the class 3, 2, or 1 medical as the standard for LSA, glider, or part 103.
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Let's not cloud the issue. The question was, if someone can't get a medical, can they go sport pilot instead. If they can't get a medical, there is SOME standard by which they can't get the medical.

You have to make the argument that the standard doesn't affect safety. Which is an uphill battle even if correct, as it means you have to attack the standard as being unnecessary.
 
MAKG1 said:
Let's not cloud the issue. The question was, if someone can't get a medical, can they go sport pilot instead. If they can't get a medical, there is SOME standard by which they can't get the medical.

You have to make the argument that the standard doesn't affect safety. Which is an uphill battle even if correct, as it means you have to attack the standard as being unnecessary.
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Just because they don't meet the class III standard for Private doesn't mean they don't meet the standard for Sport Pilot, correct?

Standards for class III are spelled out relatively clearly. Are there defined standards for Sport Pilot, or is it just "I feel I'm medically fit", and that's it?

What does the FAR say about this?

I was at one time considering the Sport Pilot certificate, but decided I'd have many more options with the Private. But this is why I'm asking:D
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Just because they don't meet the class III standard for Private doesn't mean they don't meet the standard for Sport Pilot, correct?
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Correct.

Just like not meeting the class I standard doesn't mean that they don't meet the standard for class III.


Standards for class III are spelled out relatively clearly. Are there defined standards for Sport Pilot, or is it just "I feel I'm medically fit", and that's it?

What does the FAR say about this?
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61.303
(b) A person using a U.S. driver's license to meet the requirements of this paragraph must—
(1) Comply with each restriction and limitation imposed by that person's U.S. driver's license and any judicial or administrative order applying to the operation of a motor vehicle;
(2) Have been found eligible for the issuance of at least a third-class airman medical certificate at the time of his or her most recent application (if the person has applied for a medical certificate);
(3) Not have had his or her most recently issued medical certificate (if the person has held a medical certificate) suspended or revoked or most recent Authorization for a Special Issuance of a Medical Certificate withdrawn; and
(4) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate a light-sport aircraft in a safe manner.

Also, 61.53

See also http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certific...n/sportpilots/
 
Wow, I must not have signed up to follow this thread appropriately because I never got anymore emails about replys and in the meantime, missed a lot of the conversation. Thanks for all the additional resources.

Dell30rb, I'm glad to hear you had a good experience with WoC, I'm hoping to get out there in the next week to start the process.

AggieMike, I get a physical every year and I can say "No" to all the questions except Admission to a Hospital and Other Surgery, for a ruptured appendix and a bicycle accident back in college, but I can't imagine those would disqualify me since they haven't affected me in a decade.

RV10Flyer, I have about $5k saved up, which is about what 45 hours of flying will cost me, but I will keep adding a few hundred dollars to the pile every month as I pull it out. Otherwise I'll just have to start selling stuff.

Thanks again everyone for the book recommendations. I finished Stick and Rudder, but I think that I will probably want to re-read some of the chapters once I've actually spent some time in a cockpit, but it has already helped me change how I think about flying (since I had never heard of Angle-of-Attack before), so hopefully it will help me get started too. Now I'm looking for something new to read, so I will pick something from this great list.
 
AggieMike88 said:
I'll contributte the following book title to add to the library: "The Complete Private Pilot" by Bob Gardner (who is a member here). You can find that on ASA's website, www.ASA2FLY.com

Also, let's review your situation medically. Read this document, https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Guides/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf (The help file for MedXpress), and pay special attention to explanations and details about questions 17 and 18. For the freshly hatched student pilot, not knowing how the answers to these quesstions can affect your flying dream can cause mucho grande heart- and wallet-ache.

The objective is to know with 100% confidence you will pass the medical examination because you have become well informed about the process and requirements. "Bombing in" (as our Dr. Bruce Chien likes to say) with no knowledge of the process, your condition(s), and what the FAA wants to know about you, with get you stuck in deferral hell at minimum, and possibly DENIED. You don't want DENIED. Once DENIED, you are well and truely burnt and denied toast and you lose all possibly privledges of flying yourself or family.

Read Question 18 carefully... Many of the items 18a - 18k can still be issuable with additional documentation and the Special Issuance protocols. The rest are might still be doable, but if you are answering yes, you need to seek the guidance of one of the top Airman Advocate AME's like Dr. Bruce Chien.

18v is one that can trip lots of younger pilots. If you have ever been tagged with a DUI, let's hope it's just a single instance. Then it's just a paperwork hunt to get the required documents to show that was a one off, and suffucient evidence is now in place to show you do not have an alcohol problem. Even if you don't have a dependancy problem, and you were just in the wrong place, wrong time, with too much alcohol in your system, that still can put you behind the 8-ball. If there are two DUI incidents, you might still get to fly, but the burden of paperwork and proof just increased in a big way.

Now, none of this is meant to scare you from chasing your flying dream. Quite the opposite... I just want to inject to reality that is the FAA medical system and possibly save you a significant quantity of time and dollars. If you have a disqualifying condition, why spend oodles of money and time to your solo point, only to find out you cannot be issued your medical certificate? Perhaps reviewing this information saves you from a medical denial and you retain your Sport Pilot Privileges?

Or hopefully, you visit the family doc that you've not seen in a long time for a routine physical, find out what you need to know about your health, and are able to get started on getting that medical certificate.

If you have any questions about the medical process and how it affects you... feel free to add to this thread, or start a new one under the Medical Topics forum. Our resident super AME, Dr. Bruce, is one of the best resources you can find on medical issues and the FAA. He monitors that forum and is very giving of his time to answer questions and provide "long distance" guidance on what to bring to the AME for a successful outcome.

Apologies for the long post, but this is an as important point to a new student as is finding the right texts to start your knowledge journey.
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I can agree Bob Gardners Complete Private Pilot was a good read while I had a few moments and wanted something easy to understand.
 
Downcycle said:
I really like the Stick and Rudder book, but it seems a little dated, has anyone read this? My uncle gave it to me years ago, but being that it was published in 1944 I have to imagine that a lot has changed.
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Nope. Physics is physics. We just don't call any of the flight controls "flippers" much anymore. Your Uncle obviously put some thought into the gift.
 
When I looked into lessons years ago in the Raleigh area, Wings of Carolina was the obvious choice. Unfortunately, their move from Chapel Hill to Sanford (I did say years ago) was the wrong direction for me. (I live near Creedmoor.)

If you happen to be on the North side of Raleigh you may want to consider Empire Aviation in Oxford. They were super flexible about scheduling and easy to work with.

I think the schools based at RDU are at a slight disadvantage. A coworker trained there and spent a good portion of his flight time getting away from RDU so he could actually train. Flipside is he was really good at radio work.

I don't think I read anything in print or online while learning about aviation that was wrong. My advice is to read everything you can get your hands on. Immerse yourself in aviation. You can cram for the written, if you feel that's necessary, but I relied on a lot of reading and thinking about what I had read.
 
That's a great price I pay 100 an hour for pile of a 152 plus 40 for an instructor. You'll like the 152. What's the cost to join the club
 
Downcycle said:
I think it's $20 per month.
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$200 initiation fee
$300 refundable deposit on 152 (you get this money back when/if you leave the club)
$65 per month

152 $75/hr wet. (club has 4)
Warrior II with GTN650 $105/hr wet (club has 3)
172SP GTN650 $120/hr wet (club has 3)
M20J $160/hr wet (club has 3)

Includes 2M smooth liability insurance. No renter's insurance needed, each club member is named insured under the club policy.

The refundable deposit is $300 for each type. So if you have $1200 total refundable deposit, you can fly all of the club planes. I've been a member for 2.5 years. The membership has increased from 300 to 350 and we've added three new planes in that time.
 
That's a better answer, I'm not sure where the $20/month came from. Also, when you say you get that money back when you leave the club, I assume that's if you don't damage any planes.
 
Downcycle said:
That's a better answer, I'm not sure where the $20/month came from. Also, when you say you get that money back when you leave the club, I assume that's if you don't damage any planes.
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If you damaged a plane, I think the insurance deducitble is between $1000-$1500. That is the max you are on the hook for. Its like car insurance.

The club pays for normal maintenance and wear and tear.

Keep in mind though, while you are a student pilot and flying with an instructor, the instructor is the pilot in command, and is responsible for the aircraft (and deductible should the plane get bent)
 
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