New panel for a 206

[AvNavCom]

Lots of great responses above. For what it's worth, I suggest that getting a G5 instead of a GI-275 may be a false economy. My aircraft has a couple of GI-275s as well as a GNX-375 and GNC-215. It turns out that the GI-275 is the brains of the operation. My iPad connects to that and everything else is automatic. The GI-275 handles all of the database updates via Garmin Pilot (concierge) and feeds updates to the other avionics. It also gives me ADSB, weather, and engine data on my iPad. Incredible instrument. I haven't flown behind a G5 (although I've certainly seen them), but I think the extra money to have it either as primary or as your back-up is probably worth it.

 

[AA5Bman]

Just to reply to the OP's actual options:

Option 1: I'd rather have just the GNC 215 than a GTR 205 + KX155. Better yet, a GNC 215 + GTR 205. To save money and lose only VOR and ILS, just get a GTR 205 and skip the nav radio altogether. Only you can decide if the risk of a GPS outage in IMC is worth the cost of the nav radio. There are other threads debating this if you want to hear others' opinions on the subject.

Option 2: This panel is workable but ruins your whole plan of throwing money at the airplane with reckless abandon. You actually lose a lot by going to the dual G5 instead of G3X Touch, including a usable size screen to look at weather information. If you're going to go with only a mini-PFD, consider two or three GI 275s instead. They do a lot more than the G5: synthetic vision and HSI map come to mind.

Thanks for this.

Re: your comments on #1 - Hmmm. Interesting points, I’m not sure how to respond. I feel like I have had enough radio problems that having a single Com radio is a non-starter, but that’s with ancient radios. Once I upgraded to Garmin radios in my last plane they were perfect. It is, in fact, possible to monitor he standby frequency in a single radio package isn’t it? I’m trying to think of this panel as “IFR only as a last resort” panel, and that makes me want to eliminate the VORs altogether.

Re # 2 - I have a GI275 in my current plane, and hardly use the extra features. The Terrain awareness HSI mode is sexy, but pretty small to be actually useful, and the same mode is available in the 650xi in my current panel and I don’t use it there, either - not sure if it is available in the GNX375, admittedly. You’re not wrong in your comments, fwiw, I’m just challenging myself to be realistic in terms of what I actually care about.

I just re-read the above to spell check before posting and that last comment really begs the question… what do I really care about? Hmmm. I really care about eliminating old crap in the panel (begs option #1). Really care about at least a single-axis autopilot minimum (will probably end up with GFC500 anyway). Really don’t care about IFR except as a backup or to punch through a layer (suggests getting rid of VORs and basic navigator). Don’t really care about screen real estate, partly due to iPad. Hmmmm.

 

[AA5Bman]

Lots of great responses above. For what it's worth, I suggest that getting a G5 instead of a GI-275 may be a false economy. My aircraft has a couple of GI-275s as well as a GNX-375 and GNC-215. It turns out that the GI-275 is the brains of the operation. My iPad connects to that and everything else is automatic. The GI-275 handles all of the database updates via Garmin Pilot (concierge) and feeds updates to the other avionics. It also gives me ADSB, weather, and engine data on my iPad. Incredible instrument. I haven't flown behind a G5 (although I've certainly seen them), but I think the extra money to have it either as primary or as your back-up is probably worth it.

I think you can get most of those connections, like ADS-B weather and traffic, through a different instrument if you don’t have a GI275. For instance, I know in my current panel I could get most of those items (not engine info because I don’t have any Garmin-based engine monitors in my current panel) through either the 650xi or GTX345 if I didn’t have one or the other. If I did a GNX375-based panel, I believe it would handle ADS-B traffic and weather to the iPad, and those are the big ones for me, at least.

 

[iamtheari]

I just re-read the above to spell check before posting and that last comment really begs the question… what do I really care about?

This should be your mantra. The process starts out bouncing between the zero-marginal-cost existing panel and the chartering-a-jet-would-be-a-better-value whiz-bang panel that everyone on POA tells you to build. Awesome panel pulls you up, bank account pulls you down, over and over. Each trip, you hone what you really care about and which specific boxes best fit your needs, until you reach a point of equilibrium.

Just don't be insane like me and you'll be fine. My RV-14 has a yaw damper servo because the GMC 507 control head has a button for it, and I can't live with a button that doesn't do anything.

 

[asicer]

It does., @flyingcheesehead is mistaken. You do have to bug the final altitude, sometimes I forget that. Also it won’t work if your descent requires you to exceed your preferred descent rate and you must be navigating via GPS.
There’s no VNAV climb capability, I think VNAVs were designed with STARs in mind.

Yes, but you can still enter an altitude at each waypoint even if the GFC won't climb to it. A GNX375 won't even let you do that.

 

[robin ardoin]

Just don't be insane like me and you'll be fine. My RV-14 has a yaw damper servo because the GMC 507 control head has a button for it, and I can't live with a button that doesn't do anything.

#ME TOO, LOL I did not get the YD in my 182 since a real pilot does not need it . But, as I am planning the panel for a 210 that should be forthcoming, I am budgeting in the yaw damper servo...no doubt. I have a pair of GI275's along with a GTN650/GFC500 in the 182. I have flown behind G5's and there is a huge difference in functionality with the 275. That is a great upside but....there is a lot of information packed into a small space and I am still getting comfortable with it after about 70hrs with the package. I am caught in the debate between going with three GI275 units (one for EIS) or a G3X 10" and 7". I've got the budget for the latter, assuming the 182 sells for what I think it will go for, but it certainly will be quicker to install the 275's in the existing overlay. Definitely high bottom problems we are considering in this thread.

 

[TCABM]

#ME TOO, LOL I did not get the YD in my 182 since a real pilot does not need it . But, as I am planning the panel for a 210 that should be forthcoming, I am budgeting in the yaw damper servo...no doubt. I have a pair of GI275's along with a GTN650/GFC500 in the 182. I have flown behind G5's and there is a huge difference in functionality with the 275. That is a great upside but....there is a lot of information packed into a small space and I am still getting comfortable with it after about 70hrs with the package. I am caught in the debate between going with three GI275 units (one for EIS) or a G3X 10" and 7". I've got the budget for the latter, assuming the 182 sells for what I think it will go for, but it certainly will be quicker to install the 275's in the existing overlay. Definitely high bottom problems we are considering in this thread.

If you have the budget, 2x G3X w/G5 and GFC500 all day long. I’ve yet to find someone who’s said “I just have too much wasted screen real estate.” OTOH, I’ve heard a lot of people say “lots of info on a GI-275/G5; I just wish the display was bigger because it can be hard to read.”

 

[AvNavCom]

I think you can get most of those connections, like ADS-B weather and traffic, through a different instrument if you don’t have a GI275. For instance, I know in my current panel I could get most of those items (not engine info because I don’t have any Garmin-based engine monitors in my current panel) through either the 650xi or GTX345 if I didn’t have one or the other. If I did a GNX375-based panel, I believe it would handle ADS-B traffic and weather to the iPad, and those are the big ones for me, at least.

Oh sure, I didn't mean to suggest that other options couldn't give you the same information, but rather that the GI-275 was able to feed a lot of updates and coordination between various avionics without the need to buy a Flight Stream 510 for the GNX-375, since it has built-in wifi capability in addition to the bluetooth Connext.

Regardless, the GNX-375 is a ridiculously awesome piece of kit (I updated from a GPS-150XL) and you can't go wrong with it, regardless of what displays you choose!

 

[AA5Bman]

Oh sure, I didn't mean to suggest that other options couldn't give you the same information, but rather that the GI-275 was able to feed a lot of updates and coordination between various avionics without the need to buy a Flight Stream 510 for the GNX-375, since it has built-in wifi capability in addition to the bluetooth Connext.

Regardless, the GNX-375 is a ridiculously awesome piece of kit (I updated from a GPS-150XL) and you can't go wrong with it, regardless of what displays you choose!

To be clear - and to confirm because this is kinda important - I have been told the GNX375 will give you ADS-B traffic and weather without the addition of a flightstream, but if you want to push database updates and flight plans back-and-forth to an iPad, for instance, that would require the flightstream. Is that right?

 

[AA5Bman]

Just don't be insane like me and you'll be fine. My RV-14 has a yaw damper servo because the GMC 507 control head has a button for it, and I can't live with a button that doesn't do anything.

Haha - yeah, I'm trying to avoid this. I kind of went this route where I had to have everything just because I could have it on my last panel, and now I'm really trying to pair it down to just what actually matters.

This is actually what is driving my decision making about VORs. I spent a lot of energy and time debating whether or not to put a Nav/Com (with VOR) into my last panel, and making sure it integrated to my autopilot as a #2 autopilot source. I ended up doing it, and it cost a lot of money, energy, and time in install and in 3+ years of flying that panel, I literally have not used it once... total facepalm. Now that I think about that process a little... I think I'll omit the VOR idea entirely after all for sure.

 

[AvNavCom]

To be clear - and to confirm because this is kinda important - I have been told the GNX375 will give you ADS-B traffic and weather without the addition of a flightstream, but if you want to push database updates and flight plans back-and-forth to an iPad, for instance, that would require the flightstream. Is that right?

Not quite. the GNX-375 will provide ADS-B traffic and weather, and will send/receive flight plans to your iPad via the bluetooth Connext connection. For database updates (especially the huge basemap file, which is like 3GB) you'll need a WiFi connection if you don't want to use USB/card. That means either the Flight Stream 510 or the built-in WiFi capability of the GI-275, which will then subsequently update the GNX-375.

 

[AA5Bman]

Not quite. the GNX-375 will provide ADS-B traffic and weather, and will send/receive flight plans to your iPad via the bluetooth Connext connection. For database updates (especially the huge basemap file, which is like 3GB) you'll need a WiFi connection if you don't want to use USB/card. That means either the Flight Stream 510 or the built-in WiFi capability of the GI-275, which will then subsequently update the GNX-375.

For further clarity, lol, Bluetooth Connext is included with the GNX375 as a standard feature (no upcharge, right)? I have traditionally used USBs for database updates, which, I guess is a pain, but I don't have a wifi-enabled iPad either or dataconnection, so I'm not sure how else I would do it in either case.

 

[AvNavCom]

Pretty sure that every iPad in existence has the ability to connect to WiFi. Are you sure?

Yes, Connext is standard and will be able to send real-time updates for weather, traffic, and flight plans without any upcharge. The databases are definitely an expensive upcharge, and that's where you'll need WiFi or physical transfer via SD card.

 

[iamtheari]

One downside of the G3X Touch is that it does not support Database Sync, which is the intra-panel mechanism that makes Database Concierge work. And the updates are slow, about 15 minutes per screen. I like to run the two screens in parallel to save time, so I bring 3 SD cards to the plane and start the update before I start my preflight. The TXi, GTNs, and GI 275 in the other plane all update from a single SD card or Garmin Pilot in more like 5 minutes, albeit with occasional hiccups.

 

[robin ardoin]

One downside of the G3X Touch is that it does not support Database Sync, which is the intra-panel mechanism that makes Database Concierge work. And the updates are slow, about 15 minutes per screen. I like to run the two screens in parallel to save time, so I bring 3 SD cards to the plane and start the update before I start my preflight. The TXi, GTNs, and GI 275 in the other plane all update from a single SD card or Garmin Pilot in more like 5 minutes, albeit with occasional hiccups.

Really? That sucks. I am considering a pair of G3X's as an option (10+7). I am spoiled by the FS510 and wifi DB updates to the GTN and 275's and not screwing around with SD cards and Garmin DB manager on a pc. I would presume the G500Txi would allow such?

 

[iamtheari]

Really? That sucks. I am considering a pair of G3X's as an option (10+7). I am spoiled by the FS510 and wifi DB updates to the GTN and 275's and not screwing around with SD cards and Garmin DB manager on a pc. I would presume the G500Txi would allow such?

Yes, the G500 TXi works with Database Sync and therefore Database Concierge.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

One downside of the G3X Touch is that it does not support Database Sync, which is the intra-panel mechanism that makes Database Concierge work. And the updates are slow, about 15 minutes per screen. I like to run the two screens in parallel to save time, so I bring 3 SD cards to the plane and start the update before I start my preflight. The TXi, GTNs, and GI 275 in the other plane all update from a single SD card or Garmin Pilot in more like 5 minutes, albeit with occasional hiccups.

It is slow, but if you’re just flying around (VFR, no AP) to enjoy the ride, you can replace the sdcard with database updates and do it in flight, using the G5 as your primary instrument.

 

[asicer]

For further clarity, lol, Bluetooth Connext is included with the GNX375 as a standard feature (no upcharge, right)?

Yes.

I have traditionally used USBs for database updates, which, I guess is a pain, but I don't have a wifi-enabled iPad either or data connection, so I'm not sure how else I would do it in either case.

I haven't read all of the manuals but from what I gathered from the ones I have, Database Sync requires Ethernet connections. The G5 and G3x Touch don't have Ethernet. The GI275, GNX375 and GTR205/GNC215 do have Ethernet. Just plug in one USB or SD card and everything on the network gets a database update (the GTR215/GNC215 don't seem to have that feature enabled yet but hopefully will in future firmware).

So to be clear, there are 3 features in play:
1. Connext = traffic/weather over Bluetooth (and RS232)
2. Database Sync = unified database updates over Ethernet
3. Database Concierge = Wi-Fi database updates from Garmin Pilot

GI275 has 2 and 3 and can receive 1. GNX375 has 1 and 2 and can receive 3. G3x Touch can only receive 1. G5 has none of the above capabilities.

 

[robin ardoin]

Yes.


I haven't read all of the manuals but from what I gathered from the ones I have, Database Sync requires Ethernet connections. The G5 and G3x Touch don't have Ethernet. The GI275, GNX375 and GTR205/GNC215 do have Ethernet. Just plug in one USB or SD card and everything on the network gets a database update (the GTR215/GNC215 don't seem to have that feature enabled yet but hopefully will in future firmware).

So to be clear, there are 3 features in play:
1. Connext = traffic/weather over Bluetooth (and RS232)
2. Database Sync = unified database updates over Ethernet
3. Database Concierge = Wi-Fi database updates from Garmin Pilot

GI275 has 2 and 3 and can receive 1. GNX375 has 1 and 2 and can receive 3. G3x Touch can only receive 1. G5 has none of the above capabilities.

Thank you! That is a very succinct, concise summation of the features I am looking to have in my panel and the options that will get me there. My bank account despises you, however.

 

[TCABM]

…G5 has none of the above capabilities.

And doesn’t need any database updates.

In a G3x install, the G5 is simply a backup PFD.

 

[AA5Bman]

Pretty sure that every iPad in existence has the ability to connect to WiFi. Are you sure?

Sorry - I meant a cellular data connection, not Wi-Fi.

 

[AvNavCom]

Sorry - I meant a cellular data connection, not Wi-Fi.

No worries! Cell data connection is not at all necessary. Your iPad has WiFi and Bluetooth, so you can just download the databases to Garmin Pilot at home and then update using WiFi (via GI-275 or the Flight Stream card in a GNX-375). I don't have a G3x (although I would dearly love one eventually), so I can't speak to that. Wild that it doesn't update along with the other avionics. I hear the Garmin is on short-final to release a successor, so perhaps that will have the capability.

 

[iamtheari]

No worries! Cell data connection is not at all necessary. Your iPad has WiFi and Bluetooth, so you can just download the databases to Garmin Pilot at home and then update using WiFi (via GI-275 or the Flight Stream card in a GNX-375). I don't have a G3x (although I would dearly love one eventually), so I can't speak to that. Wild that it doesn't update along with the other avionics. I hear the Garmin is on short-final to release a successor, so perhaps that will have the capability.

As far as I can tell, the prerequisite for Database Sync is an ethernet (HSDB) connection between LRUs and the G3X Touch does not have that. G3X Touch displays only talk to other devices by CAN bus and RS-232. We can hope that a G3X Touch successor will fix that, but it's possible Garmin deliberately avoided putting HSDB on the G3X Touch for some reason that will remain in effect with the successor.

 

[AvNavCom]

As far as I can tell, the prerequisite for Database Sync is an ethernet (HSDB) connection between LRUs and the G3X Touch does not have that. G3X Touch displays only talk to other devices by CAN bus and RS-232. We can hope that a G3X Touch successor will fix that, but it's possible Garmin deliberately avoided putting HSDB on the G3X Touch for some reason that will remain in effect with the successor.

Possibly so, although it's difficult to think of a reason why they would demand people screw around with physical SD cards when it's obviously possible to do this stuff over WiFi or HSDB, as the GI-275 has proven. Ideally, I'd like to see all of the Garmin Avionics share and share-alike regarding databases and sensor data, which is perhaps unlikely but seems technically feasible. Failing that, any G3X Touch successor should at least have the same connectivity capability as the GI-275. If I have to separately update the display, at least make it more convenient!

 

[iamtheari]

Possibly so, although it's difficult to think of a reason why they would demand people screw around with physical SD cards when it's obviously possible to do this stuff over WiFi or HSDB, as the GI-275 has proven. Ideally, I'd like to see all of the Garmin Avionics share and share-alike regarding databases and sensor data, which is perhaps unlikely but seems technically feasible. Failing that, any G3X Touch successor should at least have the same connectivity capability as the GI-275. If I have to separately update the display, at least make it more convenient!

When the G3X began life, I believe that it was only for experimental aircraft. The original G3X came out in 2009. The G3X Touch, still experimental-only, came out in 2014. The approvals to install it in certified planes came in 2019. The G3X family talks to its own LRUs with CAN bus and has some RS-232 connectivity, but the main data pipe between a G3X and a certified navigator (GNS or GTN) is ARINC 429, through the GAD 29 LRU, which talks to the G3X stuff by CAN bus and to the certified stuff by ARINC.

It is possible that they just wanted to keep things simple for builders by omitting an HSDB connection from the G3X. The CAN bus has the advantage of being really easy for an amateur builder to wire up: just a daisy-chain of 2 wires through the plane. For example, my G5 backup display only has 4 wires: CAN high, CAN low, power, and ground. The backup ADAHRS device has the same 4 wires plus a jumper between two pins to identify it as #2. Most devices in the chain don't have much more than that, except for the audio panel. Most of the wires in my plane are for audio. Including the wires I had to add after closing the thing up. The only HSDB connection I have is from the GTN to the transponder. A simple enough G3X Touch panel might not need any ARINC or HSDB wiring at all.

It is also possible that they kept HSDB out of the G3X specifically to make a firewall between the certified navigators and experimental LRUs. If that's accurate, then it has fallen apart with time. My GTN talks to my G3X by ARINC 429 (3 channels: GPS and VHF nav to the G3X and air data back to the GTN, all via the GAD 29 converter box and CAN bus from there) and RS-232 (2 channels: Connext and MapMX). But this could have been a factor in the decision to omit HSDB from the G3X.

It wouldn't take much to rectify that in a successor. They have tended to keep backwards compatibility with G3X LRUs, and I personally hope they continue that so I can replace just the displays in my system (same size, mounting screw pattern, and connector pinouts). But they might find unused pins on existing connectors and/or add an HSDB connector to the GDU displays.

I think that adding HSDB would also improve interoperability with the GI 275, helping them sell more of those to the experimental market. And it could save new panels from needing the GAD 29, any ARINC 429 wiring, and most RS-232 wiring (I would probably still wire the RS-232 backup channels from the engine monitor and ADAHRS to the PFD). You'd have a star topology instead of a ring (PFD directly to MFD, GTN, GI 275, and GTX) which carries different failure modes to be aware of but isn't a bad thing. I think that's how the TXi systems get wired up, anyhow.

All I know about any G3X Touch successor is rampant speculation. To my knowledge, Garmin hasn't actually said anything about it. I am just hopeful that they hit another home run with it as they did with the G3X Touch.

 

[asicer]

but it's possible Garmin deliberately avoided putting HSDB on the G3X Touch for some reason that will remain in effect with the successor.

My guess: Protect G500Txi sales.

Either that or they don't trust EAB guys to string cat5e correctly.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Lots of great responses above. For what it's worth, I suggest that getting a G5 instead of a GI-275 may be a false economy. My aircraft has a couple of GI-275s as well as a GNX-375 and GNC-215. It turns out that the GI-275 is the brains of the operation. My iPad connects to that and everything else is automatic. The GI-275 handles all of the database updates via Garmin Pilot (concierge) and feeds updates to the other avionics. It also gives me ADSB, weather, and engine data on my iPad. Incredible instrument. I haven't flown behind a G5 (although I've certainly seen them), but I think the extra money to have it either as primary or as your back-up is probably worth it.

Re: your comments on #1 - Hmmm. Interesting points, I’m not sure how to respond. I feel like I have had enough radio problems that having a single Com radio is a non-starter, but that’s with ancient radios. Once I upgraded to Garmin radios in my last plane they were perfect. It is, in fact, possible to monitor he standby frequency in a single radio package isn’t it? I’m trying to think of this panel as “IFR only as a last resort” panel, and that makes me want to eliminate the VORs altogether.

VORs are definitely something I rarely use any more. It's up to you whether it's worth it to keep one in the "I had to go IFR but then the GPS system went down" or "I had to go IFR but I was near one of the GPS jamming tests" intersections. My panel is for my "I fly IFR frequently" bird and I'm planning to go down to one Nav.

Re # 2 - I have a GI275 in my current plane, and hardly use the extra features. The Terrain awareness HSI mode is sexy, but pretty small to be actually useful, and the same mode is available in the 650xi in my current panel and I don’t use it there, either - not sure if it is available in the GNX375, admittedly. You’re not wrong in your comments, fwiw, I’m just challenging myself to be realistic in terms of what I actually care about.

The 275 is also made with newer electronics - Faster CPU, higher resolution (and much better looking) screen, that sort of thing. Functionally, the thing that I think is nice with the 275 vs the G5 is the ability to set a separate minimums bug, which allows you to already have your missed approach altitude dialed in on the regular bug prior to descending from the FAF. One less thing to do at a busy time. The wireless connectivity through the 275 is a bonus too, though I don't use it because I already had the GTN 750/FlightStream 510 combo prior to purchasing the GI275.

I just re-read the above to spell check before posting and that last comment really begs the question… what do I really care about? Hmmm. I really care about eliminating old crap in the panel (begs option #1). Really care about at least a single-axis autopilot minimum (will probably end up with GFC500 anyway).

The addition of altitude hold to an otherwise single-axis autopilot is a game changer... But yeah, the days where it makes sense to install such a beast are over.

Yes, but you can still enter an altitude at each waypoint even if the GFC won't climb to it. A GNX375 won't even let you do that.

But ForeFlight will... Maybe that's enough?

I don't have a G3x (although I would dearly love one eventually), so I can't speak to that. Wild that it doesn't update along with the other avionics. I hear the Garmin is on short-final to release a successor, so perhaps that will have the capability.

I don't have a G3X Touch either, and I would also really like one... But given the normal update cycle for avionics, a successor is already overdue. Maybe having it only be available to the experimental market the first few years means they have more parts available, but given its popularity since, the supply must be dwindling.

What I'm waiting for is a G3X Touch successor with a modern CPU and high-res display, and a lot less space wasted on a bezel. So, something like the G500 TXi, except it should be able to directly drive the GFC500 (the TXi has to interface through a G5 or 275), and do miscompare monitoring with the GI275. That "dual drive" autopilot capability and miscompare monitoring is, IMO, one of the most incredible safety improvements to come to GA since I started flying, right up there with glass panels.

My guess: Protect G500Txi sales.

Highly doubtful, given that the G3X was around a few years before the G500 TXi - It was simply limited to the experimental market. Given both of those, I doubt that any design choices on the G3X Touch have anything to do with the G500 TXi.