New Navy P-8A

[AWACSEng]

Bite your tongue, little Mister! The Navy Stoof turned Hawkeye is the ORIGINAL Airborne Early Warning Command and Control! The Air Force AWACS is a johnny-come-lately, taking twice the engines and 3 times the crew to do the same job!

Greg, I'm sure this statement was meant as tounge-in-cheek and I used to think the same thing, but after working with some E-2's during an exercise and talking with some of their crew, The E-3 is a far more superior platform for the designated mission.

 

[dmccormack]

"Office of Naval Intelligence." won't tell you sh--, but a bunch of chiefs will.

It's here and now, the P- Squadrons are no longer hunting subs.

the P-8 isn't going to either.

ONI is the repository for acoustic intel data and supports ACINT (all the chiefs I know are assigned to ACINT).

 

[Anthony]

"Office of Naval Intelligence." won't tell you sh--, but a bunch of chiefs will.

It's here and now, the P- Squadrons are no longer hunting subs.

the P-8 isn't going to either.

Well, what are they doing if they are not hunting subs? Not being a smart*ss, just curious. Drug or anti-terrorism interdiction?

 

[AWACSEng]

Getting warmer...

 

[RotorAndWing]

we don't even call them P-3s any more they are EP3-Ds now. spookie sh-- going on.

Big difference between a P-3C and a EP-3, two totally different missions, two entirely different airplanes.

I served in both squadrons, VQ-1 (EP-3) and VP-46 (P-3C).

 

[dmccormack]

The Sats can tell you with in 6 inches where any sub is and if you want to take them out drop a mine delta within about 5 miles it will hunt and destroy.

You should drop everything and inform the Navy, since obviously they aren't aware that acoustics are so yesterday.

 

[gkainz]

Greg, I'm sure this statement was meant as tounge-in-cheek and I used to think the same thing, but after working with some E-2's during an exercise and talking with some of their crew, The E-3 is a far more superior platform for the designated mission.

Completely tongue in cheek ... and you hit the nail on the head with designated mission. Hawkeye's designated mission is to provide Airborne Early Warning (AEW) and Command, Control, Communications and ... whatever C3I has morphed into in the years since I crewed one, from a carrier based platform. The tailhook is the limiting factor there.

ah - I see it's now called "Battle Space Management" http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=700&ct=1

 

[john smith]

Dale Brown's books sure got alot of things right in the last 15 years.

 

[Tom-D]

You should drop everything and inform the Navy, since obviously they aren't aware that acoustics are so yesterday.

I'm so happy you are so up to date on what's happening on the Station 2 miles up the road from my house, where I had dinner tonight with long time friends who are now maintenance chiefs, and aircrew on the EP-3s.

the proper nomer for the P-8 is a MMA, multi mission aircraft. its primary missions are intel gathering, ECM, Electronic warfare, TACMO, plus several others we can't talk about.

 

[Tom-D]

Big difference between a P-3C and a EP-3, two totally different missions, two entirely different airplanes.

I served in both squadrons, VQ-1 (EP-3) and VP-46 (P-3C).

The P-3Cs are now called the garbage haullers.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I'm so happy you are so up to date on what's happening on the Station 2 miles up the road from my house, where I had dinner tonight with long time friends who are now maintenance chiefs, and aircrew on the EP-3s.

That's VQ-1 (Fleet Air Reconnaissance Squadron One) . Their mission is not ASW like the VP (Patrol) squadrons, but rather ECM/ESM.

 

[RotorAndWing]

The P-3Cs are now called the garbage haullers.

Whatever Tom, but they are still conducting ASW operations.

 

[Henning]

What frequencies do the water penetrating radars work on? How far down under water does it go?

My understanding is that the nuclear subs use a radio with a very low frequency (in the hertz range, and low bandwidth) because that's the only way to communicate with them when under water. The low bandwidth means they send a command whose code has been agreed upon in advance, and I think it is one way to the sub. I'm pretty sure the navy would love to avoid trailing a long antenna off their subs...assuming my info is correct.

I'm not sure, but they have now given us extremely accurate modeling of the seafloor, all the way to the Challenger Deep. You can now buy for most "Glass Panel" systems for boats 3D bathymetric charting packages. I believe the same system provided the dataset for the obstacle avoidance software we fly with.

 

[Henning]

My understanding is that the nuclear subs use a radio with a very low frequency (in the hertz range, and low bandwidth) because that's the only way to communicate with them when under water. The low bandwidth means they send a command whose code has been agreed upon in advance, and I think it is one way to the sub. I'm pretty sure the navy would love to avoid trailing a long antenna off their subs...assuming my info is correct.

As for the ELF system, that is a very basic call to report in and a couple of limited orders. They need that because they don't know where the sub is and need to broadcast into all the oceans worldwide. It basically resonates the earth. The satellite radar system is a pin point system of simple sounding.

 

[bbchien]

The P-3Cs are now called the garbage haullers.

We were trash haulers even in my day....best job in the fleet.

 

[Tom-D]

Whatever Tom, but they are still conducting ASW operations.

To call the aircraft full mission capabale, you must be able to run the systems, how else than to run practice missions.

 

[Tom-D]

We were trash haulers even in my day....best job in the fleet.

always has been. The big blue beast from Point Mugu (R7) has hauled a lot of stuff up and down the pacific missle range from Pt Mugu to San Nick, to Barking Sands, and back. 12 hours out and 14 back. Some day I'll tell ya what its like for 3 people in a connie with nothing to do except manage fuel and listen to the HF, for 12 hours.

I got 3500 hours doing that and running the EW range at Fallon for 4 years.

Edited

 

[dmccormack]

I'm so happy you are so up to date on what's happening on the Station 2 miles up the road from my house, where I had dinner tonight with long time friends who are now maintenance chiefs, and aircrew on the EP-3s.

the proper nomer for the P-8 is a MMA, multi mission aircraft. its primary missions are intel gathering, ECM, Electronic warfare, TACMO, plus several others we can't talk about.

You said all subs can be tracked by satellite. You're simply wrong.

The airborne acoustic platform was never a great idea -- but using a/c to deploy sonobouys and relay LOS data has been very successful in ops and exercises, including SHAREM.

Surface ships have used, and continue to use, passive acoustics to detect, localize, track, identify targets (While the Navy has claimed to be an active Navy for years now, the reality is the ping from a 53C is thought to cause Marine Mammal deaths). The US Navy does not completely rely on satellites ('sats') as you claim, and there will be need for acoustic signal processing and analysis for the foreseeable future.

 

[RotorAndWing]

always has been. The big blue beast from Point Mugu (R7) has hauled a lot of stuff up and down the pacific missle range from Pt Mugu to San Nick, to Barking Sands, and back. 12 hours out and 14 back. Some day I'll tell ya what its like for 3 people in a connie with nothing to do except manage fuel and listen to the HF, for 12 hours.

I got 3500 hours doing that for 4 years.

Interesting. But in an earlier post you made this claim:

3 years at NAS Andrews, project Jenny, 9 years with COMNAVAIRPAC staff, 5 years at Pt Mugu (Pacific Missle Range) = 43,000 hours in the Connie, and some other junk the navy had at the time..

So, you are claiming you flew as a FE for 43,000 hours?

 

[Tom-D]

Interesting. But in an earlier post you made this claim:

That accounts for 17 years of a 22 year career.


So, you are claiming you flew as a FE for 43,000 hours?

I wasn't an FE. but I have flown that seat.


And, OBTW, 43,000 in VW command was just getting started, I know several Master Chiefs that have well over 90k hours on patrol.

 

[Tom-D]

You said all subs can be tracked by satellite. You're simply wrong.

The airborne acoustic platform was never a great idea -- but using a/c to deploy sonobouys and relay LOS data has been very successful in ops and exercises, including SHAREM.

Surface ships have used, and continue to use, passive acoustics to detect, localize, track, identify targets (While the Navy has claimed to be an active Navy for years now, the reality is the ping from a 53C is thought to cause Marine Mammal deaths). The US Navy does not completely rely on satellites ('sats') as you claim, and there will be need for acoustic signal processing and analysis for the foreseeable future.

The NAVY surface fleet uses sonar, but the P-3 no longer does. it now has a different mission. because what the P-3 was doing is now done by sats.

the P-3 is still trackig shipping all over the world, but that also is going away, due to the shortages in the aircraft availability.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm not sure, but they have now given us extremely accurate modeling of the seafloor, all the way to the Challenger Deep. You can now buy for most "Glass Panel" systems for boats 3D bathymetric charting packages. I believe the same system provided the dataset for the obstacle avoidance software we fly with.

Are you sure that's not various types of sonar? I've only worked with them incidentally, but I knew some people at WHOI (Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute) that were mapping the ocean bottoms in the 90's with SONAR. They could build up a 3-D map and they treated the incoming data pretty much the same as you would with synthetic aperture RADAR. It was simply described as underwater RADAR. They were using this method as a way to find underwater vents from which they would take samples- I would then work on some of the samples.

I'm asking since I'm not aware of any radio frequency beyond ELF that penetrates water to any useful depth for mapping or tracking subs (or anything). I realize that because I'm not aware of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[dmccormack]

The NAVY surface fleet uses sonar, but the P-3 no longer does. it now has a different mission. because what the P-3 was doing is now done by sats.

the P-3 is still trackig shipping all over the world, but that also is going away, due to the shortages in the aircraft availability.

The P-3 mission may be going away as sonobuoys relay acoustic data directly to satellites, but that's a slightly more specific reply than your earlier statement that:

WE don't hunt subs any more, we track them by satellite. we don't require Magnetic detection any more. the sat does that by other methods.

the old methods are gone, we are more interested in electronic spookie stuff, control of UAVs, etc

 

[RotorAndWing]

I wasn't an FE. but I have flown that seat.


And, OBTW, 43,000 in VW command was just getting started, I know several Master Chiefs that have well over 90k hours on patrol.

So, 43,000 hours over 17 years equals 6.9 hours per day, every day for 17 years non stop. No vacation, no training, no sick days, no days off whatsoever.

As far as the master chiefs having over 90,000 hours of patrol time that's a stretch also. If you take an average 20 year career that's 4,500 hours per year, or 12.3 hours a day every day for 365 days a year. Even stretch that out again to a 25 year career and you're still talking almost 10 hours per day for 365 days per year. Even if the Master Chief went for a 30 year career he wouldn't fly all of that, maybe 25 out of 30. Your numbers simply don't add up.

I was in the Navy also and I never knew of any crewmember to acquire those amounts of flight hours.

 

[Tom-D]

So, 43,000 hours over 17 years equals 6.9 hours per day, every day for 17 years non stop. No vacation, no training, no sick days, no days off whatsoever.

Well how about this, do the math, for 9 years our crews got 18 flight hours for every 30 hours of clock time for 9 years.... and yes we did didn't get any days off, I took 2 weeks in 9 years when my Dad Died.

As far as the master chiefs having over 90,000 hours of patrol time that's a stretch also.

In todays world you may be right, but during the hotest days of the cold war, it was pretty common flying dew line patrol.

If you take an average 20 year career that's 4,500 hours per year, or 12.3 hours a day every day for 365 days a year. Even stretch that out again to a 25 year career and you're still talking almost 10 hours per day for 365 days per year. Even if the Master Chief went for a 30 year career he wouldn't fly all of that, maybe 25 out of 30. Your numbers simply don't add up.

I was in the Navy also and I never knew of any crewmember to acquire those amounts of flight hours.

and OBTW most careers are 30 years, you were called a quitter at 20. you still had 10 years of inactive before you were transfered to retired rolls.

You can believe what you like, I have nothing to prove to you, and do not plan to continue this conversion.

 

[dmccormack]

you still had 10 years of inactive before you were transfered to retired rolls.

Which Navy were you in?

I retired after 21 years (Army). I went from ACTIVE to RETIRED in about an hour.

 

[RotorAndWing]

and OBTW most careers are 30 years, you were called a quitter at 20. you still had 10 years of inactive before you were transfered to retired rolls.

You can believe what you like, I have nothing to prove to you, and do not plan to continue this conversion.

Well how about this, do the math, for 9 years our crews got 18 flight hours for every 30 hours of clock time for 9 years.... and yes we did didn't get any days off

Sorry, not buying into that. Even NATOPS had flight and duty limits. Then you have training, annual leave plus sea duty/shore duty rotation.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[AWACSEng]

So, how 'bout that fancy new 737 thingamagig the Navy's got?

 

[RotorAndWing]

So, how 'bout that fancy new 737 thingamagig the Navy's got?

It's nice, but I will miss the P-3.

 

[Tom-D]

Sorry, not buying into that. Even NATOPS had flight and duty limits. Then you have training, annual leave plus sea duty/shore duty rotation.

Thanks for proving my point.

You forget the "convience of the NAVY part" And there were no crew time limits in time of war. WE did what we did because we volunteered for the duty, and not a single crewmen quit, during the conflict.

When you have no clew of what your talking about you should just stop talking. You were not part of the mission thus you couldn't know what was happening.

 

[AWACSEng]

It's nice, but I will miss the P-3.

Yeah, I got ya. My statement was a poor attempt at getting the thread pointed in the right direction and away from the urination distance contest.

 

[Bob Noel]

but urinary olympics are soooo entertaining. :-/

 

[RotorAndWing]

You forget the "convience of the NAVY part" And there were no crew time limits in time of war. WE did what we did because we volunteered for the duty, and not a single crewmen quit, during the conflict.

When you have no clew of what your talking about you should just stop talking. You were not part of the mission thus you couldn't know what was happening.

Remember, every sea story starts out with the phrase "This is no ****!"


p.s. Yes, I do have a "clue" as to what I'm talking about. Do the math.

 

[astanley]

It's nice, but I will miss the P-3.

I will too. I worked on fishing boats out of downeast Maine and frequently saw P-3's out of Brunswick NAS flying low along the ocean. I remember a few times, watching those birds low and fast well offshore, and feeling the 52,000 HP and four big props resonate off of your chest... whoo, I may need a cold shower now.

EDIT: I'll take it one further. Navy aircraft, to me, have always been hard scrabble, let's go kick some a** sort of airframes. Studly stuff. A lot of Air Force stuff just looks like an airliner. Before someone jumps all over me, yes, I realize the fighters, and yes, I think they are cool/sexy, but their brothers/sisters are damn ugly.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[Steve]

Guess who got seconds on the P-3...

 

[Tom-D]

p.s. Yes, I do have a "clue" as to what I'm talking about. Do the math.

I doubt that, your statements prove you don't even know about the Fleet Reserve. or any thing about what the VW Squadrons.

But I bow to your complete knowledge of all things every where, specially my career. I'll consider my 11 log books and DD214s wrong just because you say so.

Yeah Right.

 

[Tom-D]

Guess who got seconds on the P-3...

That aircraft is an "A" model that we supported from here at NAS when I worked at the engine shop. for a long tme it was all hush hush, now I see a Home Land security sticker on it..it was DEA's

It started life as the proof of concept for AWAX, and they found it worked great finding aircraft crossing the boarder. thus DEA now HS Nice old bird.

Aero Union also has a few of them modded to fight fires.

 

[KennyFlys]

When I was in, I sure recall the chiefs knowing a heck of a lot more what was going on than the "zeros." On the boat, the chiefs ate as well or better than the skipper. Chief petty officers were highly regarded. Junior officers were merely respected.

BTW, If you got sent TAD to the chief's mess, you didn't want to go back to your squadron. I was sent to ship's laundry. At least it was cool and great sleeping during general quarters. What else ya gonna do when you're locked down below the water line?

 

[AWACSEng]

Somethin' not right about being locked up on a bo-at with 3000+ of your closest friends. And I've seen some of the women(so they called themselves) in the Navy. No thanks, I'll take my aluminum tube of fun and 12,000' runways any day over that.

 

[KennyFlys]

Somethin' not right about being locked up on a bo-at with 3000+ of your closest friends. And I've seen some of the women(so they called themselves) in the Navy. No thanks, I'll take my aluminum tube of fun and 12,000' runways any day over that.

On a carrier, it was over 6,000 and there were no women back then.

We did have women on one time but that was while hosting the FRAMP squadrons so new pilot trainees could obtain carrier qualifications on their respective aircraft. I was left behind as part of a detachment to assist in hosting VS-41 from San Diego. There were three or four enlisted women from but I never dealt with any of them. Since I was an avionics tech and none of our aircraft were aboard, I was left to only take care of our berthing area. That was an easy two weeks compared to the usual twelve off and twelve on which did not include the four or six hour watches every week.