New "N: Number Design help !

Indiana_Pilot

Indiana_Pilot

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
802
Location
Connersville, IN
Display Name
Display name:
Flying "B"
I purchased my first plane last week and one of the items on my to-do list is have 12" letters put on it. I plan on taking a few trips to the Bahamas so I will need them.

The current letters are painted on (bummer) and the design of the painted stripes are going to make a nice design hard..

I believe I can go the vinyl letter route in brown outlined in white overlapping the stripes (not sure I will even like it)

Or pay someone to paint and integrate large letters in to the current scheme..

any suggestions ? I am far from an artist type person ..

thumb.php
 
Last edited:
What's the tail number?
Some numbers look better in certain fonts compared to others.

Edit: Odd, the picture didn't show up until I hit reply.
 
Yep that is odd.. As you can tell from the pic. it's kind of a bad design if I want 12" letters.. I can't find any examples of letters through lines ..
 
I also can't see the picture... But when I replied I can.
 
You'd be better off putting the new 12-inch numbers above the current stripes - in my opinion.

It is a pet peeve of mine that so many "artistic" paint shop embellish N-numbers and IMPO (and that of my FAA PMI) render them invalid per the regs in Part 45.

I see a lot of what I consider to be invalid N-numbers - and I collect photos of them. Most recently the trend has been toward those painted the exact same color as the background with only a contrasting outline - that is not legal per the regs.

By definition the N-number must be of a contrasting color to its background and similarly the actual N-number must be comprised of continuous characters - so by that criteria only the solid interior portion of the character is the actual number or letter and the outline constitutes nothing more than ornamentation -which too must be minimized.

It used to be that people (paint shops etc.) were more careful to interrupt stripes around the N-number but apparently no more. Stripes of the same color(s) as the N-number penetrating or carrying through the N-number itself to me also constitute improper or illegal ornamentation.

There is an AC that describes a rule of thumb - a 12-inch N-number must be clearly legible from 500 feet away. Ref. AC 45-2C (or later revision if applicable) Section 8, paragraph (c) in particular.

Also, the regs specify height vs. width and spacing ratios, which many alternate fonts do not satisfy. It's not "rocket science" but yet so many people still seem to screw it up. I think it's exceptionally bad when AOPA project "giveaway" aircraft for example are offered up with such "bad" or invalid paint schemes too - but I have seen a lot of such paint schemes presented over the years.

Here is a list of Aircraft & N-numbers that I feel are not legal per the above requirements - if you care to look them up online and see some examples of which I "speak"...

Teal N1322W see: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000601627L.html

Aztec N5329Y (font is wrong in terms of character size ratios and widths)

Twin Comanche N7745Y (it's a wreck somewhere but the photo was online and the stripes within stripes effect was nasty!)

Aztec N4695G (my photos date back to the '90's so it could have been repainted since...)

Twin Bo N4373D (it's on the website of a Twin Bo "expert" in NY)

Aztec N8075R (no contrast plus excessive "ornamentation")

Bonanza N8140G (only contrast is outline which is not valid)

My list goes on....
 
150Mike said:
You'd be better off putting the new 12-inch numbers above the current stripes - in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Agreed -- unless you get someone to paint the base color interrupting the stripes to make room for the numbers. That's what Piper did in 1983 when FAA again required 12" marks on new airplanes:

pa-28-181_1983.jpg


Cessna as well, for that matter:

cessna_172q_1983.jpg
 
Last edited:
Jm's pic shows a good and easy fix.......

Altho they don't look like 12" numbers... More like 9" or so....:confused:
 
If you want permanent, then painting over the current number and painting a new one above the stripes looks like the way to go.

However, I have to ask, is it legal to just put your number on with masking tape or similar when required?? It could be your cheapest option.
 
Anymouse said:
If you want permanent, then painting over the current number and painting a new one above the stripes looks like the way to go.

However, I have to ask, is it legal to just put your number on with masking tape or similar when required?? It could be your cheapest option.
Click to expand...

Yup...
Pilots do it all the time while flying in the Bahamas and Canada...

Not sure if Mexico will be on board though...:confused:
 
150Mike said:
You'd be better off putting the new 12-inch numbers above the current stripes - in my opinion.

It is a pet peeve of mine that so many "artistic" paint shop embellish N-numbers and IMPO (and that of my FAA PMI) render them invalid per the regs in Part 45.

I see a lot of what I consider to be invalid N-numbers - and I collect photos of them. Most recently the trend has been toward those painted the exact same color as the background with only a contrasting outline - that is not legal per the regs.

By definition the N-number must be of a contrasting color to its background and similarly the actual N-number must be comprised of continuous characters - so by that criteria only the solid interior portion of the character is the actual number or letter and the outline constitutes nothing more than ornamentation -which too must be minimized.

It used to be that people (paint shops etc.) were more careful to interrupt stripes around the N-number but apparently no more. Stripes of the same color(s) as the N-number penetrating or carrying through the N-number itself to me also constitute improper or illegal ornamentation.

There is an AC that describes a rule of thumb - a 12-inch N-number must be clearly legible from 500 feet away. Ref. AC 45-2C (or later revision if applicable) Section 8, paragraph (c) in particular.

Also, the regs specify height vs. width and spacing ratios, which many alternate fonts do not satisfy. It's not "rocket science" but yet so many people still seem to screw it up. I think it's exceptionally bad when AOPA project "giveaway" aircraft for example are offered up with such "bad" or invalid paint schemes too - but I have seen a lot of such paint schemes presented over the years.

Here is a list of Aircraft & N-numbers that I feel are not legal per the above requirements - if you care to look them up online and see some examples of which I "speak"...

Teal N1322W see: http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000601627L.html

Aztec N5329Y (font is wrong in terms of character size ratios and widths)

Twin Comanche N7745Y (it's a wreck somewhere but the photo was online and the stripes within stripes effect was nasty!)

Aztec N4695G (my photos date back to the '90's so it could have been repainted since...)

Twin Bo N4373D (it's on the website of a Twin Bo "expert" in NY)

Aztec N8075R (no contrast plus excessive "ornamentation")

Bonanza N8140G (only contrast is outline which is not valid)

My list goes on....
Click to expand...

You sound like a nice guy...




:rolleyes2:
 
You might consider contacting SchemeDesigners, who do a lot of custom aircraft graphic design for paint and/or vinyl. They know what's legal and what looks good.

I believe they can do just N numbers. Not sure of cost. Top-notch service.

www.schemedesigners.com - per the website, exhibiting at Sun N Fun - Booth A-017.
 
G-Man said:
You might consider contacting SchemeDesigners, who do a lot of custom aircraft graphic design for paint and/or vinyl. They know what's legal and what looks good.

I believe they can do just N numbers. Not sure of cost. Top-notch service.

www.schemedesigners.com - per the website, exhibiting at Sun N Fun - Booth A-017.
Click to expand...
I have seen many samples of their work that exhibit the exact same problems / violations of the regs that I cited above. I believe for example that they have had a hand in many of the proposed new paint schemes that are regularly (annually) put up for a vote for the aforementioned AOPA project "sweepstakes" aircraft.

I think that they have been responsible for a lot of the schemes that I've seen with white N-numbers on white backgrounds with only a thin contrasting outline or maybe in some cases an only partially colored background effected by the stripes, but which fail to fully encompass and contrast the characters of the N-number.

That's one of the things that frustrates me - even the "professionals" seem to be ignorant of the rules - or at least have such a loose interpretation of them as to make them seem worthless.
 
If I put them above the stripes then they will wrap to the top of the airplane... Not sure that will look all that great either.. Grrrr wish they were a little lower!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Have your local sign shop make a vinyl wrap as per the color scheme with the new numbers, and paste that over the present numbers.

the most difficult portion of this whole job is covering / removing the old numbers. a wrap covers them. when you have the wrap in hand it's an hours job
 
Any history of FAA violations of N-numbers not meeting their interpreted legal requirement?


Rules are only rules if enforced. Look at America in general...just saying.
 
My numbers are only about 4 inches tall and on the tail.
 
cheemsaf said:
Any history of FAA violations of N-numbers not meeting their interpreted legal requirement?


Rules are only rules if enforced. Look at America in general...just saying.
Click to expand...
Yup..

I have been to fly ins /airshows where the FAA called their bluff... And.


The FAA won...:):):):)

Google Sun and Fun last year and illegal N numbers...;)
 
Local FSDO tagged 3 Malibus because the Registration wasn't contrasting enough.
 
I found an article that said if it was done before 1981 then it can be 4 inches (which is my size I think) other than that I'm set. Black letters on white.
 
N801BH said:
Yup...
Pilots do it all the time while flying in the Bahamas and Canada...

Not sure if Mexico will be on board though...:confused:
Click to expand...

Not sure why they would do it for Canada. There's no ADIZ crossing there.
 
No ADIZ between US and CANADA or Alaska. 12" numbers are not required. There are a few pieces of Alaska that are in the ADIZ (the outer Aleutians) and some of the coastal Canadian stuff (Charlotte Islands) are in the ADIZ but if you stay over land you don't need it.
 
I'd love to get a new paint job and comply with the new stuff...but I have so much else I want (or need) to do first.
 
I think I am just going to go the Vinyl mask lettering route and use them ask temporary letters when I go to the Bahamas.. I just really hope they come off easily!
 
Firefighter_324 said:
I think I am just going to go the Vinyl mask lettering route and use them ask temporary letters when I go to the Bahamas.. I just really hope they come off easily!
Click to expand...

They do. Just get under them with a plastic putty knife. They'll peel off fairly easy after that.
 
Anymouse said:
They do. Just get under them with a plastic putty knife. They'll peel off fairly easy after that.
Click to expand...

Yup.... And a hair dryer on high, heating up the decal, speeds up the process ALOT...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top