New Member - Subjective Question

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Kevin

Filing Flight Plan
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Dec 13, 2020
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OnlyaHobby
Hi All -

Just joined this thread as a way to connect with other folks in the aviation world, and be able to find information on topics much like I'm sure many others do, naturally.

Here is my scenario: I've done the rental thing plenty, and have been in a club now for 5-6 years. My club has moved locations, and I too have since moved, putting me >1hr away from my access to flying. Consequently, I am now exploring the ownership route. I have happened upon a plane I am interested in. It is an A&P owned 182p. This gentleman has owned the plane for 20 years. Prior to that it was a pipeline inspection airplane. The plane is in what I (and others I have discussed with) would consider excellent shape. Interior is an 8+ , and the paint/exterior is about the same. The panel is basic, and has no frills or excitement in terms of avionics. It has impeccable logs, all AD's complied with, always hangared, no corrosion etc etc. Engine is higher time against TBO for the IO-470 but had the crankshaft AD done since last major, and at that time got new camshaft, pistons, rings, cylinders etc. It just didn't get the Major designation. All compressions 70+, oil analysis done every oil change, no metal.
I'm sure some of you picked up on the caveat it that I am about to ask about. Former pipeline airplane... = extremely high TTAF.
Now here is where I am coming from. This airplane, looks as if it mistakenly has an extra "0" on the airframe logs in terms of what you would guess by looking at it. My contention is: IF that were the case, it would likely be a 6-figure airplane, and consequently I wouldn't even be entertaining this conversation. Yes, I COULD go buy a 172, 177, cherokee, archer, arrow, (you name it of similar class), but I would still likely spend more money than I would on obtaining this plane. I want the added power, the extra cabin room, and capability to haul my wife, dog and ultimately whatever else I want without needing to worry about trading-up to achieve my "mission" (which for me, is in-state fair weather commutes, and using this as a platform to get instrument rating).

I know many if not most responses will be "I wouldn't touch that...." or "spend more and find something lower total time....". What I would like to know, is what specifically points to it being "too many" hours? Wing spar, Bulkhead, Firewall, I get all that. But if the airplane is truly sound, corrosion free, and passes through pre-buy / annual inspection, Aside from the resale aspect, what keeps it from being viable.

In the interest of seeing something similar on the market, I found a local 182 for sale, with about 1/3 the airframe time, similar engine hours, and only a Garmin 430 to speak of as a leg-up (a plus no doubt). I went to look at this airplane, and it was an absolute disaster. Paint was completely shot, visible corrosion, right tank leaking, glass was pretty terrible, interior was cracked/sagging/grungy. Not to mention, the plane has been annualed every year, but not flown in nearly 3. And it was almost 2x the price being one of the cheapest 182's I've found for sale.

Am I a fool to think that a regularly flown and maintained bird, with all of the attributes I mentioned, couldn't serve this purpose very well? Again, the alternative reality is that I would not be getting in to a 182, with the initial investment cost of anything similar.

Sorry for the novel, if you've read this far and have insight, I would love to hear some thoughts, again: as most I've seen on any discussion around this topic has been high TTAF = all bad. I know that in general terms I agree with that. However I genuinely believe this may be an exception to the rule.

Cheers all
 
Why would pipeline patrol scare you? The pipeline hours are XC and rather easy on the airframe.
 
I could be wrong, but weren't the 210 and pa-28 who last their wings live their lives as pipeline patrol or some other type of low level operating environment?
 
Is this a safety question, or an investment value question?

If it hasn’t hit the open market and is “who you know” deal, and you’ve seen what’s out there for the price, buy it. Worst is you’ll break even or if the market tanks, you’ll lose less total and percentage wise.

Safety - how much TTAF in a strutted Cessna is unsafe? I think it just goes back to marketability. If so, see the paragraph above.
 
Kevin said:
as most I've seen on any discussion around this topic has been high TTAF = all bad.
Click to expand...
As you point out it is subjective... to you and your requirements. Since you understand the high time price adjustment it moves to condition. As I always recommend that an owner use the APIA who will maintain the aircraft for all purchase prebuys or inputs, they would be the one to give the subjective input on the aircraft they will maintain. Especially in this case. But from a maintenance perspective, based on your summary above, I see no show stoppers to include the high time. Have dealt with a number of aircraft to include 20,000hr plus helicopters that while worn a bit would have no problem flying for years to come provided they are maintained properly. The key here, in my opinion, is what your APIA will have to say vs PoA. Good luck.
 
Are you worried about selling the high airframe time down the road? A lot of people say that’s the only thing in an airplane that you can’t do anything about, and that’s true. You can zero time the engine, but you are stuck with the airframe time.

So yeah when you sell, you might take a hit or you might not since people seem to not find a 182 to buy. You will likely sink a lot of money in the panel too, but if this plane serves your mission, why not? Pipeline patrol planes are usually not abused, they normally fly around low all day long and not abused by students.
 
Good Cessna 182s are becoming more difficult to find.

How many hours has the A&P put on the airplane over the 20 years and how were those hours distributed over time?
If it's been flown regularly and not just a hangar queen it may be a good airplane.
There are so many 182s out there that the high airframe time issues are now well known, so this A&P, or another knowledgeable mechanic, should be able to walk you through the inspection for each.

The issue with low level pipeline patrol work is the airframe can be subjected to a lot of bouncing around and cyclical stresses in the summer months due to the turbulence from daytime heating. FWIW our Flying Club flight training unit retires its 172s at an arbitrary 20,000 airframe hours (we have 13 in the fleet right now and log an average of 900 hours annually on each one). Most of them get sold to private owners who want an economical plane they can log 50 to 100 hours a year in the search for pancakes and pie.
 
Thank you guys for such quick response! A bunch of valid points

Clip4 said:
Why would pipeline patrol scare you? The pipeline hours are XC and rather easy on the airframe.
Click to expand...

This is actually the main reason I AM considering strongly to move forward with it. Being that is wasn't flight school hours, my feel is that it was certainly subjected to less quantity and quality of landings etc, and definitely maintained as properly as one could ask for.

As for the question of if I'm worrying about resale? I wouldn't say "worried", so much as just curious to know how un-marketable it may become. Am I buying something that's value inevitably drops to nothing? or is there always a buyer for an airworthy 182 like I am thinking... The current owner bought it with just under 16k hours on it himself, and it now has 17k and change. (roughly 50-70 hours per year by my math, and it never sat for longer than about a month or so) He used it for his cert business, to take him around the state, and that's about it.

I certainly get that there is a level of "to each their own" to every situation including this, but I guess I just wanted a refreshed perspective on anything I may be overlooking in this scenario. It is not on the market, and it won't be. I talked to a couple of lending institutions (who ultimately said "lol yea not happening" ) who were aviation enthusiasts of their own right. I was told "most 182's at that price point are being hauled away on trailers for parts". And I have heard it more than once. So that again makes me feel like if it is truly airworthy and not in any kind of major disrepair, this is a rare opportunity to get into a plane that otherwise I wouldn't be getting into.

Basically: Help me convince myself I'm not making a gigantic mistake... :D:D
 
Get it appraised as part of the prebuy if you want to feel better about it.
 
If I were faced with this decision I'd probably think about it along these lines:
  1. Cessna 182s are very capable airplanes, a proven airframe design, lots of them out there and always popular as a reasonably economical private airplane to own;
  2. The typical private owner won't put 1000 hours on their plane in a decade;
  3. If the airplane is sound, has been kept up mechanically and flown reasonably frequently by the current owner that's way ahead of a lot of used airplanes out there with disinterested, non-flying owners that have an inflated view of the value of their plane;
  4. There's nothing about a high time Cessna 182 airframe that should be a mystery or an unknown - there's lots of knowledgeable mechanics that know exactly what to look for so there's no reason a high confidence pre-purchase inspection can't be accomplished;
  5. It all finally comes down to perceived value - if your purchase price is reasonable it's likely there's always going to be someone that will buy it from you 500 or a 1000 hours from now at a price that is reasonable when compared to what you paid and how much additional time you put on it;
  6. High time airframes are for cash bargain hunters, not the kind of asset one should be expecting to finance.
 
I'm not that familiar with C-182 models, but unless there are lifetime-limited components, or an AD history of low level flight damage (like there was for some Cherokees), I wouldn't be too worried if the plane is well maintained and if a thorough pre-buy inspection is done. You might get a huge discount on a long-term ownership airplane. If you own an airplane for more than a few years, purchase and/or resale price is the least of one's worries. If the plane is in good shape, and expected to remain that way for the length of your ownership, then why not? If you can get a "discount" for high airframe time, all the better.
 
GRG55 said:
If I were faced with this decision I'd probably think about it along these lines:
  1. Cessna 182s are very capable airplanes, a proven airframe design, lots of them out there and always popular as a reasonably economical private airplane to own;
  2. The typical private owner won't put 1000 hours on their plane in a decade;
  3. If the airplane is sound, has been kept up mechanically and flown reasonably frequently by the current owner that's way ahead of a lot of used airplanes out there with disinterested, non-flying owners that have an inflated view of the value of their plane;
  4. There's nothing about a high time Cessna 182 airframe that should be a mystery or an unknown - there's lots of knowledgeable mechanics that know exactly what to look for so there's no reason a high confidence pre-purchase inspection can't be accomplished;
  5. It all finally comes down to perceived value - if your purchase price is reasonable it's likely there's always going to be someone that will buy it from you 500 or a 1000 hours from now at a price that is reasonable when compared to what you paid and how much additional time you put on it;
  6. High time airframes are for cash bargain hunters, not the kind of asset one should be expecting to finance.
Click to expand...

Very true, and thanks for that! And that's just it, It would/will take me a long time to put 1000 hours on an airframe, and at that point... whether it's 17k or 18k, the conversation is identical with any prospective buyer (assuming all stays the same with condition). #6 is kind of me, but not really by design, more a product of opportunity. I started looking into ownership with the financing route as an option, not really knowing much about the impact of hours to the underwriting process.

chemgeek said:
I'm not that familiar with C-182 models, but unless there are lifetime-limited components, or an AD history of low level flight damage (like there was for some Cherokees), I wouldn't be too worried if the plane is well maintained and if a thorough pre-buy inspection is done. You might get a huge discount on a long-term ownership airplane. If you own an airplane for more than a few years, purchase and/or resale price is the least of one's worries. If the plane is in good shape, and expected to remain that way for the length of your ownership, then why not? If you can get a "discount" for high airframe time, all the better.
Click to expand...

exactly my mentality. I think I can get a lot of serviceable years out of this particular scenario, and literally the only pitfall is that number on a logbook. Otherwise (and perhaps even including that aspect) it seems like a home run.. and yes, a pre-buy will be done, as well as an owner assisted annual so I can get a first hand look at what's going on. All lined up for the end of this month

Thank you for the feedback fellas! Much appreciated insight
 
No matter how good the current AP is, you really should get another one to look at it. He will find something wrong.

We just switched AP and they found several things wrong a few were "notable". While in there he did the strut inspection...hope you've heard of it...as it should apply to your 182 as well. The owner might be selling now because he spotted the cracks. Hopefully not but its a possibility you should rule out. But even that is repairable at about $12k give or take.

Personally I'd be worried first about the strut cracks AD and the high time engine. Otherwise a very common airframe, popular, lots of parts and great for WB
 
Sinistar said:
No matter how good the current AP is, you really should get another one to look at it. He will find something wrong.

We just switched AP and they found several things wrong a few were "notable". While in there he did the strut inspection...hope you've heard of it...as it should apply to your 182 as well. The owner might be selling now because he spotted the cracks. Hopefully not but its a possibility you should rule out. But even that is repairable at about $12k give or take.

Personally I'd be worried first about the strut cracks AD and the high time engine. Otherwise a very common airframe, popular, lots of parts and great for WB
Click to expand...

Totally right, and I may not have noted, but it is going to a different shop for the inspections. He actually preferred we do it that way vs. him being the one to give it a bill of health. The strut crack AD you're talking about is the most recent one correct? He brought that to my attention as well, and that will be taken care of with purchase.
 
If you're able to buy it at a good price, there's no need to worry about selling it. You won't get top dollar, but the relative differences in price work out the same.
 
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