New engines for the 58P

[Dave Siciliano]

The P Baron has been a great plane to fly. We purchased ours in 2005 with just over 900 hours on the engines that were installed in 1994 IIRC (don't have the logs here) and new cylinders (actually reconditioned). We now have over 2200 hours and have made a reservation with Bill Cunningham to bring the plane in January 15th for a complete firewall forward.

Millennium cylinders are available again which is what we now have. Bill estimates it will take six to eight weeks. This will be the first time I've flown behind new engines and am really looking forward to it. Actually, everything is supposed to be brought up to factory specs: engines, props, and all major systems. TAT is also going to tweek some things and we are still waiting to see what George and Tim have up their sleeves.

Really looking forward to it.

Best,

Dave

 

[rpadula]

Happy for you; sad for you wallet.

Merry Christmas, Dave

 

[dmccormack]

That's great! The P Barron is one capable airplane!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Happy for you; sad for you wallet.

Merry Christmas, Dave

Thanks Rich. We did a side fund of $100 an hour until we had enough to cover this (we think). It's a lot different to have it in a side fund than to write a check. Feel like the money has already been spent <g>.

It was fun to get fully funded and fly awhile for free (kinda).

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

That's great! The P Barron is one capable airplane!

Thanks Dan. I've gone through or over some fairly significant weather in this plane. Not what the big guys do, but a lot more than what I would feel comfortable with in the NA planes I flew.

Best,

Dave

 

[kgruber]

How is your windshield doing?

 

[SCCutler]

Those engines have served you well, and Cunningham's reputation is stellar. I will look for ward to flying with you to "evaluate" them.

 

[Ted]

Happy for you; sad for you wallet.

That check is never a fun one to write. But, at 500 hours over TBO, not so bad!

Dave, enjoy your engines. I'm sure you will. With 300 over TBO on the 310 engines, we're expecting to make a similar investment sometime in 2012 or 2013. I'm still evaluating options. For us, extra speed is a priority. To that end, going from 520s to 550s and/or adding turbos are on the wish list. The real question: Will Santa say we're good enough.

Merry Christmas! I'm looking forward to reading your report.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

How is your windshield doing?

The windscreen is fine. The hot plate has a lot of cracks and may be a replacement candidate soon. We're beginning another side fund for an avionics upgrade and things like the hot plate.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Those engines have served you well, and Cunningham's reputation is stellar. I will look for ward to flying with you to "evaluate" them.

Always a pleasure Spike. After Bill works his magic, the plane goes to TAT for them to sprinkle pixie dust on it <g>.

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

That check is never a fun one to write. But, at 500 hours over TBO, not so bad!

Dave, enjoy your engines. I'm sure you will. With 300 over TBO on the 310 engines, we're expecting to make a similar investment sometime in 2012 or 2013. I'm still evaluating options. For us, extra speed is a priority. To that end, going from 520s to 550s and/or adding turbos are on the wish list. The real question: Will Santa say we're good enough.

Merry Christmas! I'm looking forward to reading your report.

Unfortunately, going to 550s isn't an option for us. Just not worth getting the STC for the limited number of 58Ps out there. Still, I'm being assured HP will meet or exceed what RAM VII does. Of course, Bill effectively blue prints and balances the engines. Doing mounts, and everything else under the cowlings and in front. Millenniums are available again and that' where we are headed. Those are the cylinders that gave us such excellent service on our plane.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ted]

Unfortunately, going to 550s isn't an option for us. Just not worth getting the STC for the limited number of 58Ps out there. Still, I'm being assured HP will meet or exceed what RAM VII does. Of course, Bill effectively blue prints and balances the engines. Doing mounts, and everything else under the cowlings and in front. Millenniums are available again and that' where we are headed. Those are the cylinders that gave us such excellent service on our plane.

I'm sure you'll have good results. If it'd be doable, I'd be interested in trying to put in 340 engines on the 310 to get the turbo advantage. Since the STC doesn't exist (at least not that I've found), it might be simpler to go for the 550s as an STC does exist and it is a pretty straightforward installation, basically wax on/wax off.

First, though, we want to get a good radar unit installed in the plane.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

It's a place Cessna has done a better job than Beech. Both with the wider selection of move up piston product and the after market support of same. Beech went to turbines and really didn't keep the twin pistons current after production stopped. The Duke has some real parts issues and the mag. tail feathers. The queen air was way under powered. Of course, the 58P wasn't designed as a pressurized plane from the beginning.

Best,

Dave

 

[Jeanie]

Who/what is TAT

 

[gismo]

Who/what is TAT

Tornado Alley Turbos. Associated with GAMI who brought us WOTLOPSOP.

http://www.taturbo.com/frames.html

 

[kmead]

You can have the hotplate resurfaced to remove the crazing. We still have many hotplates left on the PA46-310P, they stopped using them in 1989 and cost $8,000 in 1994. I use a shop from Wichita that will do the job with the plate still installed. Really good work. You should have someone in your area that does refinishing.

You must have the WB engines on your P. I always felt that they were some of TCMs best engines.

Kevin

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Thanks; I didn't know that. Yes, TSIO-520WBs.

Dave

 

[wabower]

I'd guess your block time for the year, all trips considered, wouldn't change by enough to notice with turbo's. It doesn't on the 210 N/A vs. Turbo version.

That check is never a fun one to write. But, at 500 hours over TBO, not so bad!

Dave, enjoy your engines. I'm sure you will. With 300 over TBO on the 310 engines, we're expecting to make a similar investment sometime in 2012 or 2013. I'm still evaluating options. For us, extra speed is a priority. To that end, going from 520s to 550s and/or adding turbos are on the wish list. The real question: Will Santa say we're good enough.

Merry Christmas! I'm looking forward to reading your report.

 

[Ted]

I'd guess your block time for the year, all trips considered, wouldn't change by enough to notice with turbo's. It doesn't on the 210 N/A vs. Turbo version.

The turbos on that plane would be a questionable item certainly, not to mention significantly higher effort. The 550s I think would make a bigger difference in cruise speed regardless of altitude, and thus result in a more noticeable decrease in block times. Since the highest I'd want to go with the caged passengers is in the 11-15k range, I can't take full advantage of the turbos like my friend does with his T310R and no canines.

What I'm mainly looking at for the turbos are the 1500+ nm days (which are not uncommon). I'm certainly fast enough for the short hops (<2 hours or so).

 

[wabower]

My question relates to pilot skill, which I'm not sure you have in sufficient measure to make this work. If so, you're the only guy who has ever been able to do so.

So here's the question, hot-shot. Are you good enough to be sure all those 1,500 nm trips are down-wing legs?

The turbos on that plane would be a questionable item certainly, not to mention significantly higher effort. The 550s I think would make a bigger difference in cruise speed regardless of altitude, and thus result in a more noticeable decrease in block times. Since the highest I'd want to go with the caged passengers is in the 11-15k range, I can't take full advantage of the turbos like my friend does with his T310R and no canines.

What I'm mainly looking at for the turbos are the 1500+ nm days (which are not uncommon). I'm certainly fast enough for the short hops (<2 hours or so).

 

[Ted]

My question relates to pilot skill, which I'm not sure you have in sufficient measure to make this work. If so, you're the only guy who has ever been able to do so.

Well, since we all know that I'm not the World's Greatest Pilot like Jesse, I am probably lacking skill to do much beyond brush my tie my shoes. And even that is questionable.

So here's the question, hot-shot. Are you good enough to be sure all those 1,500 nm trips are down-wing legs?

More typically I have headwinds on every leg.

I'm looking at some trips I'm doing pretty routinely these days, for which it is typical for me to have some sort of tailwind on those 1500 nm legs. That combined with the fact that I like turbos in principle (just not in wallet) give me the upgrade desire. The reality is we'll likely go for the 550s with their easy and obvious return on investment and available STC. Your experience reference to the 210 vs. T-210 I'm sure would apply to my case, unless I were actually able to go for some form of turbocharging that gave me more available power, and just made the plane faster everywhere.

 

[wabower]

Given the choice, I'd go with the 550's too. Whenever you think about turbo's however, remember that the T-version will be slower than the N/A below the altitude at which the turbo provides more HP than the N/A version. Many GA trips are flown at those altitudes, especially up-wind legs.

Well, since we all know that I'm not the World's Greatest Pilot like Jesse, I am probably lacking skill to do much beyond brush my tie my shoes. And even that is questionable.



More typically I have headwinds on every leg.

I'm looking at some trips I'm doing pretty routinely these days, for which it is typical for me to have some sort of tailwind on those 1500 nm legs. That combined with the fact that I like turbos in principle (just not in wallet) give me the upgrade desire. The reality is we'll likely go for the 550s with their easy and obvious return on investment and available STC. Your experience reference to the 210 vs. T-210 I'm sure would apply to my case, unless I were actually able to go for some form of turbocharging that gave me more available power, and just made the plane faster everywhere.

 

[Ted]

Given the choice, I'd go with the 550's too.

Excellent. Donations to help make it happen can be made at the link in my signature, and are tax-deductible. You have until the 31st to get your donation in to apply to your 2011 taxes!

Whenever you think about turbo's however, remember that the T-version will be slower than the N/A below the altitude at which the turbo provides more HP than the N/A version. Many GA trips are flown at those altitudes, especially up-wind legs.

For me, a major consideration is hobbs time per day. Over the 1000-some hours of Cloud Nine flights (which is what this plane does), the formula is pretty much:

Short to moderate leg to dogs + long to longer leg with dogs + short leg home = rescued puppies

It is not uncommon for the first leg to be on a different day than the second and third legs. So if I end up spending more flight time on day 1 for whatever reason that is offset by less flight time on day 2, that's a reasonable compromise. Of course, if block times don't go down but engine operating costs go up, that's another nail in the coffin.

Edit: My suspicion is that if we put the 550s in, I'd end up being happy with the result.

 

[wabower]

So far I don't know anybody who disagrees.

 

[AdamZ]

..... This will be the first time I've flown behind new engines and am really looking forward to it. ......
Really looking forward to it.

Best,

Dave

Sounds exciting Dave, and its great that you set aside the money in advance. Gives you much more breathing room

But to be accurate your not going to be flying behind new engines in the P Baron, You'll be flying between them

As always fly it in good health.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

As always Adam: excellent points!

Best,

Dave

 

[Dave Siciliano]

We received our written estimate from Power Masters to rebuild our engines. It was in line with what we expected. Found a couple nits we'll comment on, but it seems Superior is backed up about six weeks for delivery of new Millennium cylinders. We were scheduled to bring the plane in Friday, but now intend to wait until closer to cylinder delivery date.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ted]

One of my friends had PowerMaster rebuild his IO-520 to an IO-550 for his BE33. He was very happy with the result, and when I flew the plane the engine seemed quite nicely done. Be interested to hear your thoughts when all is said and done.

 

[Henning]

Given the choice, I'd go with the 550's too. Whenever you think about turbo's however, remember that the T-version will be slower than the N/A below the altitude at which the turbo provides more HP than the N/A version. Many GA trips are flown at those altitudes, especially up-wind legs.

True, however most turbo conversion packages keep your old pistons and use the turbo as a turbo normalizer application. I sure as heck enjoyed having them on my Travelair, above 12,000 I could pass 55 Barons.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Flew the Baron up to Tulsa today to Powermasters. She'll be there six to eight weeks. GAMI/TAT also want to work some magic on her. Hard to see her go for that long after all these years where she's been on constant standby and never failed to get me somewhere when I needed to go.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ted]

Flew the Baron up to Tulsa today to Powermasters. She'll be there six to eight weeks. GAMI/TAT also want to work some magic on her.

I've heard good things about Powermasters, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts after the engines get done. What magic is GAMI/TAT planning on doing? When I was there about a year and a half ago they had a very nice 55 Baron turbo project they were working on.

Hard to see her go for that long after all these years where she's been on constant standby and never failed to get me somewhere when I needed to go.

Certainly understand. But, that gives you an excuse to fly your new plane more!

 

[sba55]

Good luck Dave!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

We flew up to Tulsa to visit with Bill Cunningham at Powermasters and get an update on how our engine upgrade was coming. Everything had been taken off the nacelles as you will see from pics I'll try to attach again.

Props: the props are now done and we had minor repairs. Bill mentioned there was a pitch change tube that needed replacement but he covered so much ground so quickly I can't recall the exact description. Obviously when we see paperwork we'll know.

Engines: Everything was at the machine shop: one crank had to be ground 10 thousands, the other met new engine specs. He pointed out a hole in our right engine manifold. In a positive plug for the way Beech builds our planes, he said if this had been a 210 or other turbo, it would have caused real problems. We hadn't seen anything noticeable in performance. He showed us the counterweight pins and said while they were worn, there was nothing to be conserved about in light of the SB for high MP and low RPM which is how we ran these engines most of their life. (continued)

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I also took a pic of the turbos which he's ordered replacements for. He said there is only one major part that might be reused if rebuilt (turbine blades) and it is getting very difficult to find replacement parts. There are unique turbos. We can still find rebuilts but they are getting more difficult to find.

The plane is supposed to be ready in three weeks. We'll probably fly up again and check once in progress.

Best,

Dave

 

[Ted]

Always nice to be able to check on the progress of a large project such as this. Glad it's going well!

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Planning on flying to Tulsa on Wednesday to get an update on the plane. Flying over to Ada from there to meet with George and Tim at TAT to see what they plan on doing to the plane when Bill Cunningham finishes with it at Powermasters. We'll post an update after we visit.

Best,

Dave

 

[Steve]

Planning on flying to Tulsa on Wednesday to get an update on the plane. Flying over to Ada from there to meet with George and Tim at TAT to see what they plan on doing to the plane when Bill Cunningham finishes with it at Powermasters. We'll post an update after we visit.

Best,

Dave

When you see Mr. Cunningham ask him what he did with my IAR engine...

 

[Ted]

Planning on flying to Tulsa on Wednesday to get an update on the plane. Flying over to Ada from there to meet with George and Tim at TAT to see what they plan on doing to the plane when Bill Cunningham finishes with it at Powermasters. We'll post an update after we visit.

Best,

Dave

Are George and Tim going to work some of their magic for extra power? That's always a good thing.

Tell them I say hi as well, if you remember.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

I was in Ada last week. Here's an update. Bill on the right and my partner on the left discuss what Bill is doing to the engine cases. Bill and his folks go through by hand and retap and debur all the fittings in the case. Bill says improper fit by factory engines allows leakage sometimes along the connections. They all come out and are refitted.

Pic two: Bill has selected new RAM cams to go in the engine and explains why. Discusses how they keep different valves open for slightly different intervals and spin the valve stems so they rotate for lubrication.

Cont.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

With the case on its side, Bill explains how Niagra has stated the starter adopters are misaligned leading to excessive wear issues. The shop has filled the previous mount locations and redrilled them so the shaft will be properly aligned.

The cases are put together so Bill can demonstrate how the cylinders will fit and shows where oil flows through. He hand clears all the places where he can to assure proper flowage.