New engines for the 58P

Our crank that was turned down ten thousands. He explains how larger bearings will be used and how the other crank met factory specs.

Bill shows our new Millennium cylinders and how the valves fit in. He laps and gaps the valves and shows how it's done. He has a 50s vintage grinding stand that is used to assure the valves fit snugly and aren't too shallow or wide.
 

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Bill shows how the different rings fit into our cylinders; which he resizes and why. The one shown has tighter specs than factory with a goal of twenty thousands at the bottom of the cylinder and not less than eight at the top.

Bill mentioned our cases had no milling indications; therefore, were in such good shape he reused them rather than using other cases. Many other things: to many to even try to post all.

End of engine porn for now: now back to our regularly schedule program
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Best,

Dave
 

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Will the fuel flow gages and TIT's match perfectly when you get it back? :D
 
Keep on coming with the engine porn, Dave. Looking great!
 
Plane should be done. Unfortunately, Bill is out this week. We could pick it up without flying with him first, but decided to wait until next Tuesday to go up with him and hopefully bring the bird back home.

Meanwhile, my partner in the Baron has decided to move to the KA with me; so, we may be selling the Baron.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Plane should be done. Unfortunately, Bill is out this week. We could pick it up without flying with him first, but decided to wait until next Tuesday to go up with him and hopefully bring the bird back home.

Meanwhile, my partner in the Baron has decided to move to the KA with me; so, we may be selling the Baron.

Best,

Dave
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Excellent, on all fronts.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Plane should be done. Unfortunately, Bill is out this week. We could pick it up without flying with him first, but decided to wait until next Tuesday to go up with him and hopefully bring the bird back home.
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Not a bad plan, especially since you have the KA.

Meanwhile, my partner in the Baron has decided to move to the KA with me; so, we may be selling the Baron.
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Good news! An excellent Baron, especially with the high-quality firewall forward job you just had done. Should fetch top dollar.
 
Bill had the plane ready for us yesterday and we did a test flight. Everything functioned well except for a couple probes acting up--one CHT and one EGT. But, we had very high CHTs on several cylinders even when we did a higher than normal airspeed climb and even straight and level rich of peak. LOP, we were able to pull the mixture back far enough to keep CHTs reasonable, but at a fairly low airspeed. We flew around for more than an hour but mainly focused on MP, and fuel flows while watching CHTs. In the end, Bill wanted to revisit engine timing to see if it was set a bit too advanced. TITs were relatively low with high CHTs and it ran very smoothly LOP. Bill wondered if backing up the timing just a bit would improve performance. Of course, the cylinders should seat in a few hours and many folks have seen CHTs drop twenty degrees or more once that happened. Still, full rich at 2500 rpm; 35" on MP we should be able to climb at 140 knots or more with reasonable CHTs and that wasn't happening today. I flew the KA up there and back and getting back in the baron was nice, but I'm getting pretty attached to the KA (g). Best, Dave
 
just dont tell Bill you think you have enough saved - first off, its never enough. Second, if you think you have enough you have just tempted the Gods of Murphy.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I flew the KA up there and back and getting back in the baron was nice, but I'm getting pretty attached to the KA (g). Best, Dave
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Somehow, I'm not surprised. ;)

Glad that the plane is done. Hopefully the cause of the high CHTs can be identified and fixed. I've typically seen high CHTs on new Lycoming cylinders, but never dealt with new Continental or aftermarket cylinders.
 
It's back! Test flew it today and my partner flew it home. On the test flight, one CHT probe didn't work. No. Six on the left ran hot, especially in the climb, but at 6,500 feet, 35" of MP: 2400 rpm: 171 IAS which Mr. garmin showed as TAS os 191 :bugeye: all CHTs under 380: TIT 1550: 16.8 gph per side. At first, I thought the engine was running rough, and it is a bit, but part of it is just raw power. One can feel the power surges as this new engine just muscles it's way along compared to what we had before. Can't wait to get it up to altitude to see what it does higher up! Dave

Attached pic of the Baron our front with the KA at Bill Cunningham's

Best,

Dave
 

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Sounds like you have a 302* duration cam or better. That the engine is Lopez below 1600rpm is fine, after that though it should have a completely smooth voice coming into a full power roar. Any roughness in voice over 1600 rpm needs to be investigated if it doesn't clear in a very fer hours. Passages, ports and bleeds have been known to be issues on fresh rebuilds so don't let it turn into something expensive.
 
That is good news!

He must have pushed mine out just ahead of yours. I did first flight (3hr) on the 3rd over the airport. 15 hrs on it now and will have a few more before the Friday launch for OSH. Stronger than the previous overhaul, worth the wait.

Dave Siciliano said:
It's back! Test flew it today and my partner flew it home. On the test flight, one CHT probe didn't work. No. Six on the left ran hot, especially in the climb, but at 6,500 feet, 35" of MP: 2400 rpm: 171 IAS which Mr. garmin showed as TAS os 191 :bugeye: all CHTs under 380: TIT 1550: 16.8 gph per side. At first, I thought the engine was running rough, and it is a bit, but part of it is just raw power. One can feel the power surges as this new engine just muscles it's way along compared to what we had before. Can't wait to get it up to altitude to see what it does higher up! Dave

Attached pic of the Baron our front with the KA at Bill Cunningham's

Best,

Dave
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Well, nice P-Baron, fresh engines, yummm...
Hmmm, maybe I should get rid of Fat Albert and move up?
I took the lap top over to Fat Albert and held it in front of his landing light so he could see the picture and asked him what he thought... He just snickered and asked what I'm going to do with a P-Baron when I need to get in and out of a quarter mile of dirt with big trees at the end?
Still, nice airplane for XC....
 
Henning said:
Sounds like you have a 302* duration cam or better. That the engine is Lopez below 1600rpm is fine, after that though it should have a completely smooth voice coming into a full power roar. Any roughness in voice over 1600 rpm needs to be investigated if it doesn't clear in a very fer hours. Passages, ports and bleeds have been known to be issues on fresh rebuilds so don't let it turn into something expensive.
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At higher RPM it's fine, but one can certainly tell everything's tight as can be. Having to climb a bit slow to keep temps down until cylinders seat.

Dave
 
Henning said:
Sounds like you have a 302* duration cam or better. That the engine is Lopez below 1600rpm is fine, after that though it should have a completely smooth voice coming into a full power roar. Any roughness in voice over 1600 rpm needs to be investigated if it doesn't clear in a very fer hours. Passages, ports and bleeds have been known to be issues on fresh rebuilds so don't let it turn into something expensive.
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I have always wanted a Lopez engine! :D

Can we tell who types on an iPad? Sure, I knew we could!
 
Glad to hear that you got the plane back, Dave, and that you're happy with the performance of the engines. I'll be very curious to hear just how the plane performs up at altitude. Also be curious to hear what you decide as far as flying the 58P vs. KA.

The 310's engines are old and a bit weak. I'm sure when we put in new ones, that will make for a similar power boost like what you've seen.
 
Ted: they run a bit rough at idle, or lope as Henning said. Have to run them full rich at idle. We are making more power, period. Can't quantify it yet, but this thing really wants to GO! Cylinders haven't seated yet, so, don't know where we'll be then.
Very impressed with the LOP cruise at 6,500.
We departed near gross; it accelerated very well.
My partner flew it home, I took the KA.
Looking forward to a trip in it. Will probably have to wait until I return from vacation.

Dave
 
Actually, when broke in and properly adjusted, you should be able to lean a lot of that lope out of it on the ground into a cackle.
 
In the was of updates, we flew up to Fort Smith Friday to bring it back to Tulsa. My partner and his flight instructor flew with Bill Cunninghan from Fort Smith to Tulsa Riverside. I was the taxi driver in the KA. They said it was fine. Number 6 on the left was about 20 degrees cooler than number 5 and all seemed fine in the climb and LOP at 6 to 8,000 where they flew back. Bill is going to tweak some things, change the oil, check timing, check all work, rotate the prop 180 to get it the way he balanced it and have it ready next week for us to pick up. Of course, I'll be in Wisconsin, so we're planning on going back Tuesday the 20th to pick it up. My partner will fly it again as I'll take him up in the KA. So, Thanksgiving weekend, I'll see if I can get out there and fly it to get a first hand feel.

Bill said he honed the cylinders better to get rid of more cross hatching. Said they won't drop as much temp wise when they seat, but they look good now. Of course, it's a bit cooler now than when we last got it in July.

Best,

Dave
 
We picked up the Baron on Thursday and flew it back here to Addison. Test flight went well. Although the cylinders did get a bit hot in the climb at high power settings, they were stable and responded quickly when power was adjusted.

The engines just feel more powerful. Plane accelerates better and is much better in t he initial climb. I only took it up to 6,000 on the test flight. My partner took it up to 12,000 on the way back to Dallas. We'll take it on a few local flights to break in the cylinders and watch it closely. At some point, looks like we'll put it on the market for sale, but not in a rush.

Best,


Dave
 
I saw it on the approach and didn't hear the fire trucks, so assumed a safe arrival. Glad you finally got it home, hopefully with better luck this time:yes:

Dave Siciliano said:
We picked up the Baron on Thursday and flew it back here to Addison. Test flight went well. Although the cylinders did get a bit hot in the climb at high power settings, they were stable and responded quickly when power was adjusted.

The engines just feel more powerful. Plane accelerates better and is much better in t he initial climb. I only took it up to 6,000 on the test flight. My partner took it up to 12,000 on the way back to Dallas. We'll take it on a few local flights to break in the cylinders and watch it closely. At some point, looks like we'll put it on the market for sale, but not in a rush.

Best,


Dave
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I saw it on the approach and didn't hear the fire trucks, so assumed a safe arrival. Glad you finally got it home, hopefully with better luck this time:D

Dave Siciliano said:
We picked up the Baron on Thursday and flew it back here to Addison. Test flight went well. Although the cylinders did get a bit hot in the climb at high power settings, they were stable and responded quickly when power was adjusted.

The engines just feel more powerful. Plane accelerates better and is much better in t he initial climb. I only took it up to 6,000 on the test flight. My partner took it up to 12,000 on the way back to Dallas. We'll take it on a few local flights to break in the cylinders and watch it closely. At some point, looks like we'll put it on the market for sale, but not in a rush.

Best,


Dave
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Thanks Wayne. Finally putting something in that hangar we've been paying for besides a fridge with beer in it!

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
We'll take it on a few local flights to break in the cylinders and watch it closely. At some point, looks like we'll put it on the market for sale, but not in a rush.

Best,


Dave
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Does flying the Baron make you feel nostalgic? You had a lot of good trips in that airplane, I suspect that parting will involve some sorrow.
 
My partner flew the plane today and things seem to be breaking in fine. No CHTs were over 340, but he stayed low for some local instrument practice. We'll probably run it carefully for the next eight or ten hours to be sure everything is working well. I plan to fly it next week.
My partner made an interesting comment. He said on instrument approaches to maintain 120 knots which is what we normally do, it takes 3 to 4 inches less manifold pressure. We used to run 23 or so and he said 19 to 20 was doing it today. Also, in level flight, a lower power setting is getting us comparable speed to what took a higher setting before. So, the plane just has a lot more power. Can hardly wait to get everything seated to see where it cruises in the flight levels now.

Best,

Dave
 
gismo said:
Does flying the Baron make you feel nostalgic? You had a lot of good trips in that airplane, I suspect that parting will involve some sorrow.
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It does. Have to say, I've had some wonderful planes and each has taken me, family and friends on some wonderful trips.
The TN A-36 was wonderful for a single. Very capable and could get me to either coast from Dallas. That's what I took to Mexico to get my niece after Francis hit. Bahamas, many domestic flights. Great stuff.

The 58P just got me up higher for more trips, quieter, pressurized cabin and also went great places. Have to say, it's still nice to fly this plane, but very different now that I've been in the KA for most of this year. The baron is certainly simpler to fly. Kind of like going back and riding a bike after being off it for awhile.

The KA step up can be compared to the move from the A-36 to the 58P in a lot of ways. Climbs faster, quieter, more dependable, a lot more comfortable with more room and the potty. I've taken my nieces and granddaughters on a couple trips in it now, and we're all making the transition reasonably (g). Wonderful for these three to four hour tips I do about once and month.

Best,

Dave
 
Glad to hear that the new engines are working out so well and that the plane has more power. Hopefully we'll be able to say the same when the 310 gets its new engines on.

Did you get the RAM camshafts in your new engines? Unfortunately (for me) they only make them for 520s/550s with the front-mount gear-driven alternators. The 310 has rear-mount belt-driven alternators.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Glad to hear that the new engines are working out so well and that the plane has more power. Hopefully we'll be able to say the same when the 310 gets its new engines on.

Did you get the RAM camshafts in your new engines? Unfortunately (for me) they only make them for 520s/550s with the front-mount gear-driven alternators. The 310 has rear-mount belt-driven alternators.
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Problem with changing camshafts for guys like us that cruise pulled back is that we can deteriorate econo cruise efficiency for climb and high cruise power.
 
Henning said:
Problem with changing camshafts for guys like us that cruise pulled back is that we can deteriorate econo cruise efficiency for climb and high cruise power.
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According to RAM (http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft-Parts/Camshafts/camshafts.htm):

RAM Aircraft said:
Provides 3% improved fuel economy at 65% power, or 3% more power at original fuel flow. This is accomplished by a slight reduction in lift, duration and overlap. The reduced duration and overlap lessens the amount of fuel/air charge lost through the exhaust port during cylinder scavenging. The reduced lift is incorporated to minimize valve gear acceleration, stress and wear, thus improving durability. Easier starting and improved idle.

25% reduction in valve train component structural loads.
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So their theory is you just get more power for the same fuel burn. That makes sense to me, at least for turbocharged. Now what that does to naturally aspirated vs. turbochaged, I don't know, but it is approved for N/A engines. Their specialty is in the turbo section, and I don't pretend to be a camshaft guru.

Either way, I run the plane at 24"/WOT (since I cruise at or above 6,000 ft) and 2300 RPM, or at least have until now. Getting a few extra knots at that RPM wouldn't be bad, especially if it gave me more power up high.

As we've agreed upon before (and so has Dave), economy cruise just makes sense. You get better life out of the engines which ultimately costs you less, not to mention the fuel burn savings. But, some folks want to go fast. If I can go fast and save a bit on economy, then I'm very happy.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
According to RAM (http://www.ramaircraft.com/Aircraft-Parts/Camshafts/camshafts.htm):



So their theory is you just get more power for the same fuel burn. That makes sense to me, at least for turbocharged. Now what that does to naturally aspirated vs. turbochaged, I don't know, but it is approved for N/A engines. Their specialty is in the turbo section, and I don't pretend to be a camshaft guru.

Either way, I run the plane at 24"/WOT (since I cruise at or above 6,000 ft) and 2300 RPM, or at least have until now. Getting a few extra knots at that RPM wouldn't be bad, especially if it gave me more power up high.

As we've agreed upon before (and so has Dave), economy cruise just makes sense. You get better life out of the engines which ultimately costs you less, not to mention the fuel burn savings. But, some folks want to go fast. If I can go fast and save a bit on economy, then I'm very happy.
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Interesting, the cut in split overlap will likely cost some power on an NA engine, I agree it's totally okay to play with opening the split on a blown engine. One of the great advantages to playing with DOHC engines instead of single cam engines is that you can tune intake and exhaust valve timing separately. I'd like to see the full spec sheet on the cam.
 
Henning said:
Interesting, the cut in split overlap will likely cost some power on an NA engine, I agree it's totally okay to play with opening the split on a blown engine. One of the great advantages to playing with DOHC engines instead of single cam engines is that you can tune intake and exhaust valve timing separately. I'd like to see the full spec sheet on the cam.
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As would I. Since RAM is unashamedly a turbocharged Continental engine specialist, there's no doubt that's where they put all their R&D. Doubly so for the GTSIO-520, since that camshaft and moving the top of the green arc to 35" from 32.5" is the only offering they have with that engine.

It makes sense to me that what they did would benefit a turbo engine and potentially hurt a N/A engine. If the cams were available for our engines, I would have looked into it further. Since they weren't, I decided it wasn't worthwhile looking into.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As would I. Since RAM is unashamedly a turbocharged Continental engine specialist, there's no doubt that's where they put all their R&D. Doubly so for the GTSIO-520, since that camshaft and moving the top of the green arc to 35" from 32.5" is the only offering they have with that engine.

It makes sense to me that what they did would benefit a turbo engine and potentially hurt a N/A engine. If the cams were available for our engines, I would have looked into it further. Since they weren't, I decided it wasn't worthwhile looking into.
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Too bad Ed Iskenderian passed, he was d'man on d'cam. He reworked the cam I had in the IO 360 I had in the MM and did a nice job with it.
 
Well, our new engines seem to finally have all the bugs worked out and are performing wonderfully. At first, we really had to be careful with new power settings. The ones we ran on the old engines were just too high. We're developing much more power as is evident in the take off roll and initial climb; so, we had to adjust MP down a couple inches for climb and cruise.

We had one other glitch as a drain broke off a cross over tube and caused an induction leak. Bill came right down, isolated the problem and stayed over night to fix it. He was in a bit of a hurry to leave, but that seemed to have more to do with his wife shopping at the Galleria while he was working on my plane. Seemed to get real motivated to finish after she called about another sale!

Anyway, I took it to South Carolina and back twice to bring family out and take them back home. Got a great feel of how it performs in the low flight levels. Climb was a bit better, but one still had to keep it at 7 to 800 FPM in a sustained climb to keep CHTs under 380 all the way up. If one climbs at a higher rate, those CHT temps will eventually get too hot. But for shorter, lower climbs, like departing Charlotte when I was making a short hop with a passenger, 2,000 FPM initial climb was no problem.

In cruise at FL 180 to 200, about 16 gallons per hour per engine got me where I needed to be truing at 210 to 212 initially, a bit faster as I burned off fuel. The left engine will burn about 3 tenths more than the right as was the case on the previous engines. Plane performed flawlessly droning on for over 16 hours on those flights.

Everything finally seems to be falling into place and I can see where this is going to be an absolute joy to fly again.

Best,

Dave
 
There are few thing time, money and a good mechanic can't resolve! :D

Enjoy!
 
Nothing better than a hangar full of Beech twins. When will the Model 18 be delivered?:D
 
Nice Dave. Is the left engine burning more a characteristic trait of all 58Ps, or just yours? Any idea why? Because of the fuselage to the right vs. clear air?
 
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