New 2020 Phrasing

cgrab

cgrab

Pattern Altitude
Joined
May 2, 2014
Messages
2,162
Location
Huntsville AL
Display Name
Display name:
cgrab
Approach switched me to Tower and they said I was number 3 for 18 right and cleared to land."
I could not see the two in front of me because of the ground clutter. I replied "cleared to land number 3 18 Right."

Then I said "I have them on the IN but not the eyes."

Tower said "roger you have plenty of spacing."
How do others let the controllers know that you can't see the traffic but know where they are due to technology?
 
I think what you said was fine.

I might’ve said “I have them on ADSB, but negative visual contact.”
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I don’t, they don’t care about your “fish finder”, either “looking for traffic ” or “I have traffic in sight” are my replies.
Click to expand...
This^^^.
ATC couldn't care less about your electronic toy. I hear guys say that in the airlines all the time too. All it does is clutter the frequency.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
mwagg737 said:
This^^^.
ATC couldn't care less about your electronic toy. I hear guys say that in the airlines all the time too. I always think it's stupid.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Yeah their rules don’t let them use your electronic awareness for anything. You either see em or you don’t. That said this was just VFR and he basically confirmed you had enough room whether you saw them or not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Did the controller ask if you saw the preceding traffic? I wouldn’t even mention that I was looking for it unless ATC asked me. (I of course would be looking for traffic even if I didn’t know there were two planes ahead of me. But ATC would ask if they cared.)
 
The ADS-B may tell you where to look outside for the traffic but you aren't really seeing the traffic on it. I'm tempted to do the same thing, thinking I can ease the mind of a worried controller. But I'm really just giving out information he can't legally use.
 
Original question having been answered, it's tangent time!

If you are told "Bugdestroyer 666, number 3, cleared to land 18 right" but you are not in visual contact with with #1 and #2, are you actually cleared, or are you not cleared to land until you have the both planes sighted?
 
nauga said:
"Negative *contact* ;)

Nauga,
putting the 'antics' in pedantic
Click to expand...

Yeah I say that too. Haven’t had coffee yet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
A new set of Rules AFR adsb flight rules.

or VRFR virtual reality flight rules for those that spend all their time playing with electronic gizmos.

my point being that it’s VFR and the V stands for visual.
 
Ravioli said:
Original question having been answered, it's tangent time!

If you are told "Bugdestroyer 666, number 3, cleared to land 18 right" but you are not in visual contact with with #1 and #2, are you actually cleared, or are you not cleared to land until you have the both planes sighted?
Click to expand...
You are cleared to land the moment it left the controller’s lips. That clearance may by rescinded if the anticipated/required runway separation doesn’t exist as you cross the threshold.

Best intentions vs actual results may vary.
 
nauga said:
Nauga,
putting the 'antics' in pedantic
Click to expand...
I hope it won’t make Nauga hide when I say this but, if you have ever considered quitting your taglines while you’re ahead, now is the time. You won’t easily top this one.
 
Is “negative contact” official phrasing? , personally I don’t like it, reminds of the way Arnold speaks in the terminator movies.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Is “negative contact” official phrasing? , personally I don’t like it, reminds of the way Arnold speaks in the terminator movies.
Click to expand...

I’m fond of “how will this approach terminate”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Just pretend that you're at a non-towered field and that you DID see the landing traffic when you last looked. :)

It's a good time to focus on the landing and not get distracted (or waste time telling them about your ADS-B) when you know that the traffic is not an immediate concern.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Is “negative contact” official phrasing? , personally I don’t like it, reminds of the way Arnold speaks in the terminator movies.
Click to expand...
Yes. There are only two phrases listed in the P/CG that apply to traffic calls. "Traffic in sight" and "Negative contact"

You'll notice that the two phrases, with opposite meanings, share no common words. That's why they should be used inseat of responses such as "negative traffic", etc. It reduces the likelihood of confusion.

If a controller mentions traffic but still gives a landing clearance it is likely that the traffic will not be a factor. If it is, the pilot's response of "negative contact" would likely be followed by either more information about the traffic's position or alternate instructions to increase separation for sequencing.
 
cgrab said:
Approach switched me to Tower and they said I was number 3 for 18 right and cleared to land."
I could not see the two in front of me because of the ground clutter. I replied "cleared to land number 3 18 Right."


Then I said "I have them on the IN but not the eyes."

Tower said "roger you have plenty of spacing."
How do others let the controllers know that you can't see the traffic but know where they are due to technology?
Click to expand...
I don’t. You either see the traffic or you don’t. What you see on the panel helps you not the controller.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
I don’t, they don’t care about your “fish finder”, either “looking for traffic ” or “I have traffic in sight” are my replies.
Click to expand...

100%. Whether or not you have them on ADSB is does not matter to a controller, they don't care. ADS-B is to enhance situational awareness, it is not to be used as a primary method of traffic avoidance, the the V in VFR.

Salty said:
A new set of Rules AFR adsb flight rules.

or VRFR virtual reality flight rules for those that spend all their time playing with electronic gizmos.

my point being that it’s VFR and the V stands for visual.
Click to expand...

^^ This is great, and so true.
 
Local tower here (Class D) won’t usually clear unless you report “in sight”, or when they finally tell you “no factor”.

I commonly reply “traffic in sight” or “looking for traffic”.
 
Ravioli said:
If you are told "Bugdestroyer 666, number 3, cleared to land 18 right" but you are not in visual contact with with #1 and #2, are you actually cleared, or are you not cleared to land until you have the both planes sighted?
Click to expand...

that's bugged me since I was just a student. "why did he just clear that guy behind me to land, I'm still on the runway!" It's really bad phraseology or language in my opinion. Unless it's some sort of land and hold short situation, only one at a time please....
 
Brad W said:
that's bugged me since I was just a student. "why did he just clear that guy behind me to land, I'm still on the runway!" It's really bad phraseology or language in my opinion. Unless it's some sort of land and hold short situation, only one at a time please....
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. The guy behind you IS cleared to land as long as there remains sufficient separation.

If he is coming in hot and you aren’t able to clear the runway in time, the controller will cancel his landing clearance.
 
I consider your number to land to be FYI, and I don’t bother repeating it. And don’t bother runway number if it’s active runway and I’ve already acknowledged it (“enter right downwind for 10”, etc) and already in the pattern on said runway. Not sure if that’s correct either, but I’ve never been corrected. My home airport has a large school, so traffic on the radio can clog up the frequency.
 
another vote for "no contact", controllers don't care about you fish finder, they have their own
 
Brad W said:
that's bugged me since I was just a student. "why did he just clear that guy behind me to land, I'm still on the runway!" It's really bad phraseology or language in my opinion. Unless it's some sort of land and hold short situation, only one at a time please....
Click to expand...

Huh, this one never bothered me. I think I put a mental suffix on it like so:

"You are number 3, cleared to land [as long as numbers 1 and 2 keep doing what I expect them to do, nobody surprises me, and my estimations work out]"
 
Bobanna said:
I've been scourged for using these terms ("That's military phraseology, donchaknow?"), and I've abstained from using them.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if it’s a regional Thing but I tend to hear it more in the New England area.
 
schmookeeg said:
"You are number 3, cleared to land [as long as numbers 1 and 2 keep doing what I expect them to do, nobody surprises me, and my estimations work out]"
Click to expand...

yah I know that's more or less what it means.... and its all good.
Just a nit picky semantics game.... just like those folks who get bent out of shape over tally ho. They know what you mean. Pretty much everyone knows....

but as the guy with rights to the runway....over the numbers and cleared, or rolling out.... it's mine and nobody else's, and I'll be done when I'm done. call me selfish. Don't make me worry about some numbskull landing behind me or on top of me when i'm clearly not done yet.
or
as the one on short final cleared number 2..... why are you lying to me, it's clearly that other person's right now!?! Don't make them think I'm about to put my nose wheel through their roof!

the other one that bugs me in a semantic way....a pilot rolling out, somewhere in the general vicinity of the turn off, and they broadcast "clear of the active". Nope....you might intend to be and will most likely be shortly but you aint clear so I can't have it yet.
 
Brad W said:
but as the guy with rights to the runway....over the numbers and cleared, or rolling out.... it's mine and nobody else's, and I'll be done when I'm done. call me selfish. Don't make me worry about some numbskull landing behind me or on top of me when i'm clearly not done yet.
Click to expand...

Just remember, you may not see it often but a plane can legally be cleared by ATC to land behind you and land as long as you're 3000 feet down the runway(assuming a Category I aircraft: small single−engine propeller driven aircraft weighing 12,500 lbs. or less, and all helicopters. )
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc_html/chap3_section_10.html 3-10-3
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top