Net Neutrality

And many places in rural America have only one car dealership. And only one hardware store. And only one bank. And only one doctor. And only one restaurant.

I just don't see that as sufficient reason to impose the heavy federal hand.

Yes, but we have roads so you can go to the next town over to get a car or buy hardware or bank, etc.

Suppose the roads were owned by GM (not far fetched as a lot of places are doing PPPs or selling the roads) and they decided to cut off access to Toyota and Honda dealers. Certainly within their power, and not much different that Comcast who owns NBC and Universal.

I am generally a free market person, but I also understand and know that some regulation is necessary to ensure a functioning market. In face many businesses help write the regulations to protect themselves and keep out competitors.

Case in point: car dealers. In many states, manufacturers cannot sell directly to customers, they must use a dealer. In some places internet sales are restricted. Tesla had a real problem entering some states as a result. The dealers argue that these rule 'protect the public' and 'assure good service', yet almost uniformly the dealer's maintenance facility is higher priced and lower quality than many independent service facilities. It took laws and court cases to protect the rights of drivers to use non-dealer facilities for service. There is no question that this regulation - pushed and promoted by the dealers - has kept out different sales models that can benefit the public.
 
As a small business, the rates have gone up at least 10% a year for the last 3 years. That is not a functioning competitive market.
Programmers are losing eyeballs to OTT but the rent is still due.
 
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There is more competition in cellular phones, the airline industry and generic pharma than there is in high speed internet in most places.

And people complain they’re being screwed by all of those, too. When they can buy a coast to coast airline ticket for $200. Or have a freaking pocket computer with 100 Mb/s fed to it wirelessly anywhere in a major metro for $100/Mo.

The loudest complainers are the ones who want life to be “fair”. They’re quite entertaining, really. If life were “fair” they could go climb the tower in a blizzard and re-point the microwave dish after the wind ripped half of the bracket off of the antenna feeding their local cell site.

Any carrier stupid enough to really mess with the bits of their competitors eventually gets their butt handed to them economically. One way or another. The business model is still to transport the most bits from point A to point B, or profit margins suffer and the next iteration of the network can’t be funded. So the company craps out or limps along until they get back in the game.

He who dies with the most Erlangs wins!
 
Comcast changed their website statement on Net Neutrality on April 26th of this year. April 27th was the day that Ajit Pai announced the plan to drop net neutrality.

From 2014 to April 26th 2017
april-26-2017-640x420.jpg



From April 26th to now:
april-27-2017-640x340.jpg



If that isn't telling, I don't know what is.

Source

There we go. They just hedged their own statement. Can you tell me where.
 
I love that they got “sustainable” in there too. Trigger word that tickles happy feelings in the brains of the herd who were pre-trained Pavlov style by environmental activists.

Ding! Dinner is served doggies! LOL.

Soothing green header color. Suggests “go”. No red or angry colors.

Clean font. Bullet points. Looks all business like a nice PowerPoint slide.

Masterful. Bill Daniels would be proud of his progeny. :)
 
It's amazing that somehow the internet managed to work for a long time without net neutrality that was only around for the last two years...

I have an idea, let's get rid of all the toll roads out there. It's not fair that someone who wants to pay extra to get somewhere faster on better roads is allowed to. Everyone should be able to use the same road. Why should I be able to cut my commute home in half by paying a $6 toll? That's not fair at all! Or the people here that want to use the toll lanes (same road) to get from Orange County to Riverside County, paying upwards of $10-12 a trip to cut 45 minutes off their commute, that's not fair either! Those people who don't want to pay the toll should be able to use the same roads, everything has to be equal! Blah, blah, blah...
 
discretionary_spending_pie_2015_enacted.png


And basically government, VA, international, would all be much smaller without "military"


Only discretionary spending shown here. Not shown is mandatory spending and interest on debt. 2015 spending on military more like 16% of total budget.
 
It's amazing that somehow the internet managed to work for a long time without net neutrality that was only around for the last two years...

I have an idea, let's get rid of all the toll roads out there. It's not fair that someone who wants to pay extra to get somewhere faster on better roads is allowed to. Everyone should be able to use the same road. Why should I be able to cut my commute home in half by paying a $6 toll? That's not fair at all! Or the people here that want to use the toll lanes (same road) to get from Orange County to Riverside County, paying upwards of $10-12 a trip to cut 45 minutes off their commute, that's not fair either! Those people who don't want to pay the toll should be able to use the same roads, everything has to be equal! Blah, blah, blah...
Actually, the last two years is round two. First round was put in place around 2009 by the Obama administration because of abuse by Comcast, Covant and Verizon the first version lost in court as previously explained in the thread. So the current reg is take two.

Tim

Sent from my LG-TP260 using Tapatalk
 
It's amazing that somehow the internet managed to work for a long time without net neutrality that was only around for the last two years...

I have an idea, let's get rid of all the toll roads out there. It's not fair that someone who wants to pay extra to get somewhere faster on better roads is allowed to. Everyone should be able to use the same road. Why should I be able to cut my commute home in half by paying a $6 toll? That's not fair at all! Or the people here that want to use the toll lanes (same road) to get from Orange County to Riverside County, paying upwards of $10-12 a trip to cut 45 minutes off their commute, that's not fair either! Those people who don't want to pay the toll should be able to use the same roads, everything has to be equal! Blah, blah, blah...

We just got a de-regulated privatized toll road here in the DC area to IAD. Toll has recently been as high as $44, and you don't know exactly what your charge will be until you reach the exit point. Actually, you don't know what your toll will be until you get the bill, because it's charged to your ez-pass.

Sure, there are public options, slower traffic. Not so much with the net.
 
A very small local isp has announced they will not abide by the reversal of NN.
They promise to feed users all sites 'equally' or something like that.
I am wondering if they get their internet feeds from a bigger dog, one that does control what is accessed, by price paid? So that what they say is meaningless, they have no control of what happens upstream.
 
A very small local isp has announced they will not abide by the reversal of NN.

Obamaesque. If you hated this service with NN, you'll still hate it without NN. We won't do anything different. We're proud to be your only option for service.
 
"At BBT, we do not throttle, cap or prioritize web usage for our customers — and we have no plans to start."
So will customers experience any difference between now and after the rule change?
 
Did you notice any difference when the rules were enacted?
 
I dont use their service.
Others in town are, but have mentioned nothing.
I think it’s still too early; this only happened in the last 48 hours. I think changes will take weeks/months.

Still wondering if changes will happen with ie ATT but not small ISPs.
 
You've ducked the question... what differences did you notice in June of 2015 when it was enacted?
 
Didn't think it applied to me as I have never bought from that isp. (and no one using the service has given me info which I could use to answer it)
But if you mean personally what have I noticed using ATT, nothing.

Still looking for answer to my Q;
Do small isp's get their internet access from the big boys?
 
Building and designing networks by public opinion, is about as stupid as building and designing airplanes through public opinion... LOL.
 
A very small local isp has announced they will not abide by the reversal of NN.
They promise to feed users all sites 'equally' or something like that.
I am wondering if they get their internet feeds from a bigger dog, one that does control what is accessed, by price paid? So that what they say is meaningless, they have no control of what happens upstream.
My ISP sent me an email almost immediately after the ruling, stating the same thing. They are small, compared to the big guys, but are expanding. They are also the fastest and cheapest option in this area (about $60/ month for 5G fiber plus phone). But I’m lucky enough to live in one of their first neighborhoods for fiber. They selected streets with overhead utilities and a high proportion of residential customers. Also, there are more choices here than in many locations. Internet at my previous location sucked.
 
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I’d laugh if one day the major ISPs shut down everything for an hour to show the snowflakes and scheming content controllers who is the boss.
Sure, abusing one’s position and punishing your customers for not accepting “who is the boss” would be hilarious. And you need to give up the snowflakes thing. It’s really boring.
 
But competition does not have to be nationwide. Many businesses have local monopolies in certain places. Should we regulate the press if there's only one newspaper available?

And while hardwired internet options are limited in some places, satellite providers are an option and so are cellular providers.

Just because some people have limited purchase options does not mean we bring in the feds.
Actually that’s exactly what it means. One of the governments functions is to protect us from monopolies.
 
You seem to be a classic snowflake.

Care to show us where you got this sadly mistaken idea?

One of the governments functions is to protect us from monopolies.

Almost missed your opinion on Military being a corporate entitlement. ****ing hilarious!

So, the thing the federal government exists to provide is bad?

Wow. Just Wow.
 
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It's amazing that somehow the internet managed to work for a long time without net neutrality that was only around for the last two years...

I have an idea, let's get rid of all the toll roads out there. It's not fair that someone who wants to pay extra to get somewhere faster on better roads is allowed to. Everyone should be able to use the same road. Why should I be able to cut my commute home in half by paying a $6 toll? That's not fair at all! Or the people here that want to use the toll lanes (same road) to get from Orange County to Riverside County, paying upwards of $10-12 a trip to cut 45 minutes off their commute, that's not fair either! Those people who don't want to pay the toll should be able to use the same roads, everything has to be equal! Blah, blah, blah...

I would be perfectly fine with toll roads if I wasn't already paying boatloads of state and federal taxes that are supposed to build and maintain the roadways as a public infrastructure.

And by the way, I don't -do- paid parking. Out of principle. If you can't give me a place to park, you don't need my business. Granted, I can't follow that 100% but I will walk six blocks to avoid a $5 parking fee.
 
And people complain they’re being screwed by all of those, too. When they can buy a coast to coast airline ticket for $200. Or have a freaking pocket computer with 100 Mb/s fed to it wirelessly anywhere in a major metro for $100/Mo.

The loudest complainers are the ones who want life to be “fair”. They’re quite entertaining, really. If life were “fair” they could go climb the tower in a blizzard and re-point the microwave dish after the wind ripped half of the bracket off of the antenna feeding their local cell site.

Any carrier stupid enough to really mess with the bits of their competitors eventually gets their butt handed to them economically. One way or another. The business model is still to transport the most bits from point A to point B, or profit margins suffer and the next iteration of the network can’t be funded. So the company craps out or limps along until they get back in the game.

He who dies with the most Erlangs wins!
Having seen the way many in industry think, there a very large school of thought that messing with the competitor in a limited-competition market will eventually either 1) drive customers to you, or 2) drive the profitability of a competitor down so far that you can buy them cheap. It has worked enough that it's become a viable business model. The ILEC vs CLEC situation is not identical, but close - there are virtually no CLECs around any more. The decision path for management is "can we do it his ourselves and capture enough of the pie to make it worthwhile" and "can we use our distribution status to impede others enough to drive them to our platform" and "if we do that, can we drive them to sell out to us".

Carriers, particularly the cable guys, want to preserve the old business model because it's usually cheaper than building a new model tha might compete. Cable companies want to limit streaming for several reasons ranging from "we want the revenue from carriage fees" to "it consumes more bandwidth" to "it will disrupt our model" to they are competing with us". Content providers try the same thing - the music industry has learned that the hard way, and video companies have managed to avoid some of that (both sought and got federal legal protection). Heck, some of the sports leagues (looking at you, MLB) still black-out local markets from streaming unless you subscribe to a local cable/satellite provider - and some teams (looking at you O's and Nats) don't allow streaming at all except to out-of-market subscribers to the MLB package. That's all about preserving the business model.

We can look at cost, too. Locally, "business" internet is about 3x, maybe more, than consumer, for a lower speed. What it buys you is no data cap, open ports, the ability to run a server (static IP) and a few freebies. It uses the same pipes and POP, so reliability is on-par. That can give us an idea of the cost structure that providers may impose.

even the airlines worked hard to drive out competitors. One drove smaller low-cost competitors out of their fortress hub by adding widebodies, slashing fares, and limiting access to gates. When AA owned Sabre, they were sued for anti-competitive behavior by altering the order that results were given to AA's preference.

Life's not fair, but a certain amount of regulation is necessary to ensure a well-functioning competitive market. Even if that regulation seeks to keep out competitors. He who has the gold rules.
 
I would be perfectly fine with toll roads if I wasn't already paying boatloads of state and federal taxes that are supposed to build and maintain the roadways as a public infrastructure.

And by the way, I don't -do- paid parking. Out of principle. If you can't give me a place to park, you don't need my business. Granted, I can't follow that 100% but I will walk six blocks to avoid a $5 parking fee.
I'm OK with toll roads where the toll goes to fund new lanes. Handing over taxpayer funded assets to a private group who charges a toll is a problem for me.
 
If “perfect” means “dumb and lacking substance to make the point” in your world, sure.
Your only argument was “nuh-uh.” It’s exactly on point. Do you have a substantive response?
 
You seem to be a classic snowflake.

LOL.. we have “classic snowflakes” now...

Now I want to know what the “new snowflakes” do that makes one a “classic” one. ;)

But your point was sound... government protecting people from monopolies... ROFLMAO... I’ll let the approved defense contractors for classified systems know... they’ll get a chuckle.

Heck, for that matter... I’ll let the government’s approved secure network providers know the government is going to protect me from them and their pricing they charge for that crap.

Everybody loves a good laugh over in the room with the red labeled circuits at the telecom central office... nahhhh, nobody is dependent upon the other here... no match made in hell...

Maybe they can install some more fiber taps leading to those rooms, too. Have to be ready for any of those automated FISA Court tap orders at a moment’s notice, you know. Save us all from terrorists.

I don’t think your young player snowflake friend quite understands how intertwined telecom providers and government actually are.

But Verizon thanks you for paying for the circuit that takes the air traffic controller’s voices to the transmitters... etc. And that’s not even the secure stuff.

Government protecting consumers from big telecom... YGBFKM. Government subsidizes big telecom so they can communicate. Their HF radios are very dusty.
 
You seem to be a classic snowflake.

Care to show us where you got this sadly mistaken idea?

Sure, see Sherman Act, Clayton Act, Federal Trade Commission Act of 1914. It’s also a fundamental principal to the idea of free markets, which, for whatever reason, 90% of people who swear up and down that they’re free market capitalists have no clue about.



Almost missed your opinion on Military being a corporate entitlement. ****ing hilarious!

So, the thing the federal government exists to provide is bad?

Wow. Just Wow.
Straw man. I’d say wow, just wow, too, but this was predictable.
 
Well, @mryan75 - The government of The USA has some dumb thing called a constitution... and it mentions nothing of monopolies. It does seem to have some provisions regarding national defense.


We can have fun if you want to talk about the Internet as a "Public Good" and how the "free rider problem" impacts that. Those are Economic theories and therefore not outside of the RoCs.
 
The ILEC vs CLEC situation is not identical, but close - there are virtually no CLECs around any more. The decision path for management is "can we do it his ourselves and capture enough of the pie to make it worthwhile" and "can we use our distribution status to impede others enough to drive them to our platform" and "if we do that, can we drive them to sell out to us".

Oh for effs sake. AT&T IS a CLEC. They were bought out by SBC! The worst damn ILEC that wanted to be a CLEC the planet has ever seen. LOL. They just kept the AT&T name for MARKETING.

Carriers, particularly the cable guys, want to preserve the old business model because it's usually cheaper than building a new model tha might compete.

...

Life's not fair, but a certain amount of regulation is necessary to ensure a well-functioning competitive market. Even if that regulation seeks to keep out competitors. He who has the gold rules.

The so called “old” model that the moron public BEGGED for when the cable companies showed up, and cheered their politicians giving one cable company the rights to serve their town? LOL.

Your only argument was “nuh-uh.” It’s exactly on point. Do you have a substantive response?

I clearly stated that the analogy of shipping companies was horsecrap to use when saying shippers don’t charge additional fees for special services.

Shipped any large wooden crates lately? It won’t be the same price as shipping your Christmas crap to grandma.

Shipping mass video packets on data networks is no different. Special handling needed, special transport gear, expensive. Higher fees.
 
We just got a de-regulated privatized toll road here in the DC area to IAD. Toll has recently been as high as $44, and you don't know exactly what your charge will be until you reach the exit point....
That sounds a lot like the fees at FBOs!
 
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