Negotiating repairs with seller after prebuy
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Blueangel
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Jim I already mentioned some of these squawks earlier so no need to beat a dead
horse. Spar corrosion and gear rods in landing gear system are expensive AD squawks that this piece of junk needs repaired. Moral of story walk away if the plane is beat to death and
neglected. Proud Bonanza sellers don't sell crap that is falling apart.
horse. Spar corrosion and gear rods in landing gear system are expensive AD squawks that this piece of junk needs repaired. Moral of story walk away if the plane is beat to death and
neglected. Proud Bonanza sellers don't sell crap that is falling apart.
It's a minor nit to pick but I don't believe that there is an AD for spar corrosion or landing gear rods. You're probably confusing airworthiness directives with defects that affect airworthiness.
Personally, I think the plane is worth more than the value you have assigned it, even if it is used for parts. That doesn't mean that walking away was a bad idea however, it was probably a good one. There are plenty more airplanes for sale out there.
Blueangel
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Personally if I was an A&P with my own shop and could negotiate down to 15-20K for the plane then sure I would have continued the purchase. However, as a first time to be owner without A&P skills and no shop to work on it, it just is too much of a project donor type plane to deal with right now. So I walked away and will buy one in much better condition with the panel and options I want. I don't mind paying more for a better aircraft. My goal is to buy a plane that I can fly right now without sending it to a shop for a six week repair!
This Debonair was 37K plus 20K in repairs plus another 30K to update the panel, interior, avionics so that would cost me 80K plus and months in shops to have repaired and updated. I see tons of Bonanzas for 60-90K with low-mid time engines, Garmin avionics, new interior and few major squawks for that price so only a fool would deal with a junker airplane that was advertised as well maintained when fact is otherwise. The IA A&P advised me to walk away as well from the plane.
I am quite impressed with Waypoint they really are a top notch Bonanza shop! They saved me from a nightmare purchase and quality work on the prebuy.
-Scott
This Debonair was 37K plus 20K in repairs plus another 30K to update the panel, interior, avionics so that would cost me 80K plus and months in shops to have repaired and updated. I see tons of Bonanzas for 60-90K with low-mid time engines, Garmin avionics, new interior and few major squawks for that price so only a fool would deal with a junker airplane that was advertised as well maintained when fact is otherwise. The IA A&P advised me to walk away as well from the plane.
I am quite impressed with Waypoint they really are a top notch Bonanza shop! They saved me from a nightmare purchase and quality work on the prebuy.
-Scott
Ok... I have a question for you guys...
A potential buyer finds a plane, pays for the prebuy and reads the report.... Is that potential buyer the legal owner of that document ? Does he/she have to forfeit it to the seller on the collapse of the deal? Can the seller claim they never saw the report? Can the potential buyer sell it to the next sucker looking to buy that plane to attempt to recover some of his/her outlay?
A potential buyer finds a plane, pays for the prebuy and reads the report.... Is that potential buyer the legal owner of that document ? Does he/she have to forfeit it to the seller on the collapse of the deal? Can the seller claim they never saw the report? Can the potential buyer sell it to the next sucker looking to buy that plane to attempt to recover some of his/her outlay?
docmirror
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Spar cracks - yes, spar corrosion is an airworthiness deal, but it's something you need to see to check. Corrosion in the spar box is very rare.
All landing gear retract rods have corrosion. They are right in the way of the spray off the tire when it's spinning. Happens on all of them. Usually, the rod it taken off, given a bead blast, and a coat of paint in put right back on. Now, if the plane lands in FL or MS on turf runways constantly, it could be pretty serious. Same with the retract springs, they are a $80 part, and 15 min to repl. I leave the boots off so I can look up at them on pre-flight.
All landing gear retract rods have corrosion. They are right in the way of the spray off the tire when it's spinning. Happens on all of them. Usually, the rod it taken off, given a bead blast, and a coat of paint in put right back on. Now, if the plane lands in FL or MS on turf runways constantly, it could be pretty serious. Same with the retract springs, they are a $80 part, and 15 min to repl. I leave the boots off so I can look up at them on pre-flight.
Tom-D
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Ok... I have a question for you guys...
A potential buyer finds a plane, pays for the prebuy and reads the report.... Is that potential buyer the legal owner of that document ? Does he/she have to forfeit it to the seller on the collapse of the deal? Can the seller claim they never saw the report? Can the potential buyer sell it to the next sucker looking to buy that plane to attempt to recover some of his/her outlay?
I would say that is legal, unheard of, but legal, after all didn't the buyer pay for the inspection that produced that list? wasn't the inspector working for the buyer during the inspection?
I think Yes.
Blueangel
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Still think there is legal case to recover some of the pre buy cost if the broker advertised the aircraft as well maintained when the prebuy report shows otherwise. There were 60+ airworthy squawks on this POS. The broker acted surprised like it was no big deal that much of it was not of concern. Sorry but discounting a plane by 2-5K is not gonna seal the deal or inspire confidence in your buyers!
docmirror
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Ok... I have a question for you guys...
A potential buyer finds a plane, pays for the prebuy and reads the report.... Is that potential buyer the legal owner of that document ? Does he/she have to forfeit it to the seller on the collapse of the deal? Can the seller claim they never saw the report? Can the potential buyer sell it to the next sucker looking to buy that plane to attempt to recover some of his/her outlay?
This is the way it works in the RE area, and presume with decent surety that the same would apply for an aircraft. The person paying for the report owns the information developed as a result of that report.
I had a house inspector do an eval on a prospective house purchase for me, and I told him to send me the report privately. The sellers agent asked, and then demanded I share the report with him. He didn't get the report, nor the sale.
Blueangel
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And what did your purchase agreement say?
weirdjim
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Ya know, I'm getting REALLY tired of you going on and on about what a **** poor airplane they inspected without a list (not yours, you have no clue about what you are talking about) of what is unAIRworthy and what is a pretty good idea to fix.
When I see the "12 page" list I will comment. Until then, you are blowing smoke and I think this thread should stop until we have somr hard facts to talk about.
I personally think you are a first time buyer who has absolutely no idea what the real world is all about aircraft ownership
Jim
Blueangel
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Hey Jim,
While you're entitled to your opinion the report is confidential and cost me 1k to obtain via the inspection. The broker misrepresented the aircraft as well maintained when in fact it was not. End of story. Got my deposit back and will at least walk away without buying a POS junk. You can see it if you want to fund my next prebuy
Scott
While you're entitled to your opinion the report is confidential and cost me 1k to obtain via the inspection. The broker misrepresented the aircraft as well maintained when in fact it was not. End of story. Got my deposit back and will at least walk away without buying a POS junk. You can see it if you want to fund my next prebuy
Scott
asgcpa
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Bottom line it's the OP decision what to do after the prebuy. He doesn't need armchair QB telling him what to do, including me in that QB category. My potential bird is in prebuy. While I suspect there will be none of the issues OP encountered, there may be some squawks. At that juncture I will discuss with my partners the options. That is what a prebuy is for- to uncover potential landminrs and let us make intelligent rational decisions. Too much emotion is involved with our hobby and we need to put it in perspective. If he is uncomfortable with the bird and related price he should walk. There is a an old adage that holds true I think. You get what you pay for. I nearly ended up with a Deb a couple of years ago in that condition. Glad I walked. I have Henning to thank for reviewing the logs with me. Didn't even get to prebuy.
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asgcpa
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It's interesting because I was told by the broker selling the plane I have in prebuy that the report is confidential and it is up to us to decide what points we want to discuss and negotiate with the seller.
weirdjim
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The way the clever person does something like this is to find a good A&P that knows the breed to go to the airplane and spend an hour or two looking it over but not signing anything. Any A&P worth his salt can look at an airplane in an hour to find obvious crap like this airplane had and verbally tell the prospective buyer what his opinion is of the airplane.
Now you've spent what? A couple of hundred at most? THEN if the A&P doesn't find a horrible list after giving the once-over THEN you take it in to the specialist shop and have them do a real prebuy given the list the A&P gave you verbally.
At my home airport I'll generally give it a quick once-over at no charge or at most a case of mexican beer or a bottle of scotch for the YF figuring that I'll get the business of doing the annual on the majority of them.
Be CLEVER out there, y'hear?
Jim
Now you've spent what? A couple of hundred at most? THEN if the A&P doesn't find a horrible list after giving the once-over THEN you take it in to the specialist shop and have them do a real prebuy given the list the A&P gave you verbally.
At my home airport I'll generally give it a quick once-over at no charge or at most a case of mexican beer or a bottle of scotch for the YF figuring that I'll get the business of doing the annual on the majority of them.
Be CLEVER out there, y'hear?
Jim
Blueangel
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Easy to say Jim as you are an A&P and have plenty of friends who work on aircraft. I am not that fortunate and as a new soon to be aircraft owner, most pilots do not have A&P buddies. Sure if I knew a Bonanza A&P then giving him a couple hundred bucks would be no issue. I tried to find one in San Diego but to no luck. I have a friend who has an A&P friend but never heard back from him. Anyways to me 1K is fine to avoid a 50K trash heap. I factor this cost into the whole aircraft purchase.
Blueangel
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My opinion is that prebuy should be confidential between you the buyer and the mechanic and the seller that you disclose the report information details. It is like your taxes. I am sure that if some stranger on a forum whom you have never met or known asked you for a copy of your bank statement and taxes you would tell them to go pound sand. It is really none of their business.
Silvaire
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It seems to me you paid someone a grand to do a pre-buy in order to make the decision on whether or not to purchase the aircraft and now that you have decided not to you want your money back.
Let's say there weren't 12 pages of squawks, only 5, or maybe only 1 but you still decide to pass. What's the difference?
Let's say there weren't 12 pages of squawks, only 5, or maybe only 1 but you still decide to pass. What's the difference?
docmirror
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It seems to me you paid someone a grand to do a pre-buy in order to make the decision on whether or not to purchase the aircraft and now that you have decided not to you want your money back.
Let's say there weren't 12 pages of squawks, only 5, or maybe only 1 but you still decide to pass. What's the difference?
He's claiming misrepresentation. Airworthy as offered for sale, but not close to airworthy as inspected. This is where the contract deals get important. One small note like 'subject to buyers verification' in the contract the broker made him sign, and it's all done.
Blueangel
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I'm not a lawyer but to me when an aircraft us advertised as well maintained and the prebuy reveals 60+ airworthy squawks that's just plain shameful on the seller and brokers part as misrepresentation.
Tarheelpilot
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It depends. After a few years of being around this business I can tell you without a doubt that IA's will have different interpretations of airworthiness. One will refuse to give an airworthiness endorsement and you can ferry the plane to another IA that will sign it off as airworthy. I"m not saying you don't have a valid claim. I don't have enough information to formulate an opinion one way or the other. Merely pointing out there are lots of grey areas in this business, even in areas that should be black&white.
Good luck !!
Blueangel
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True well either way I'm glad that I did a prebuy on the plane. In the long run it saved me from a financial nightmare. Of course if I was Mr. Jimbo the super duper aviation deity then I could avoided the time and cost but I'm just a newbie learning the ropes. With that said I had a good experience finding some really nice Bonanza candidates in better shape.
Tarheelpilot
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Well....sometimes some guys on here come off a little harsh, myself included, but I think the general message was if the plane was really that bad you could have spent less money to find out it was not the one. In the end its your money to spend how you see fit. Regardless of the details you got what you wanted, a solid prebuy from a reputable shop. That 1k saved you a lot of money compared to buying the aircraft without doing your due diligence as a buyer.
Tarheelpilot
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i bet they wouldn't allow customer supplied parts either.....
weirdjim
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I was born and raised in San Diego. You should have asked. That is what forums like this are for. Spend your money as you wish.
Jim
Silvaire
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Let's look at it like this: you say there are 60 airworthiness squawks that shoot this horse in the ditch. Why didn't the shop doing the "pre-buy" stop at 10 or 20? Why did they continue all the way to 60 and charge you a grand? Why didn't they just call you on day one and tell you the spars were corroded and there's no point going further?
Tom-D
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They charge by the hour???
Blueangel
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None you guys keep beating a dead horse. Time to move on and close this thread. My point is that the pre buy is worth the cost and the seller misrepresented the plane as well maintained when it in fact has not been maintained well with lots of deferred maintenance causing airworthy issues. I am glad that I did not buy it!
docmirror
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And that is exactly way I suggested you be refunded your pre buy costs...
Well, he could ask, and they would tell him no, and he could sue, and they would find the 'verification of aircraft is up to buyer or buyers agent' clause in contract, and the judge/magistrate would rule against him(caveat emptor), and they would part ways. So, I think this broker just reinforces me long held theory that they are all liars. Which is prolly why the owner chose not to sell it himself, so he was insulated.
Moral of the story; Don't use a broker.