Need some sense talked into me.....

sferguson524

sferguson524

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FormerSocalFlyer
I am thinking of acquiring a debonair that was landed gear up 5 years ago.. I know this about the plane - and don't know what other questions to ask. Seller is asking 39K for a 1960.. has the 260HP engine.. Looks like it needs flap skins, belly skins, a prop and an engine teardown.. Hasn't been in annual, and seller's husband died. I feel that 39 is a bit much, seeing the level of work that needs done, but i think this could be a fun project with someone watching over my shoulder. I am quite mechanically inclined, so turning wrenches isn't a problem
 

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I would consult with an A&P and get some kind of realistic estimate on how much that work is going to cost before taking this seriously. I can see sinking at least $50K into an engine teardown and belly skins, plus you may need a new engine if it has been sitting around rusting for too long. And if there is any structural bulkhead damage, damage to the gear, etc... things could get ugly in a hurry.
 
You're right. Just putting the prop on that plane is going to cost more than it's worth. If it was in flying condition we're only talking about $50K at best (this is an older one without the center stack upgrade...can't see much in the cockpit shot, but crap radios likely). A new Hartzell prop is going to run $22K. Beware of used Hartzell and Mac props. The Hartzells have an onerous inspection AD that is frequently problematic. The Macs have an even more scary AD that says if you can't prove the time to manufacture, the prop is toast. I can guarantee the prop that's on there is probably toast for a couple of reasons. The engine is going to run close to $10K even if there is NOTHING wrong with it.
 
I've seen decent flying Bo's that sat a few years out of annual collecting dust going for that price.

For a semi wrecked, for sure non-airworthy plane, I'd maybe go 8k, and that's only if I had time and space for it.
 
Zang.. sounds like i'd be best served running away from this, and the dear widow should sell it for scrap?
 
Sac Arrow said:
I would consult with an A&P and get some kind of realistic estimate on how much that work is going to cost before taking this seriously. I can see sinking at least $50K into an engine teardown and belly skins, plus you may need a new engine if it has been sitting around rusting for too long. And if there is any structural bulkhead damage, damage to the gear, etc... things could get ugly in a hurry.
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Sac, the plane is based at CRQ ~ 3 miles from the beach.. Prolly quite a bit of rust in that engine
 
The plane was declared salvage by the insurance company. I don't know what the ratio of repair to value is for this plane, but it's prolly about 60%. The market for the Deb is anywhere from $37-90k with a lot of variation based on radios, and extras. Lets say this one is going to be worth $65k when it's done. Get an A&P to give you an estimate on the damage repair, despite your willingness to grab a wrench and get going.

It can be done. The flap skins are pretty easy, just take off and send to one of the flight rebuild shops. The prop is gonna go $15-20k, engine tear down and rebuild is gonna be costly as well. You won't ever make money on it unless you get it for nearly free. OTOH, if you do rebuild it, you'll know exactly what you've got, and it should serve you well for many years.
 
I wonder how much salty air has been blowing through those really old avionics? ....
 
Just walk man.

You can do way better for that kind of money
 
Don't walk,run. It all sounds good till you get started and start to run out of money.
 
frfly172 said:
Don't walk,run. It all sounds good till you get started and start to run out of money.
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I was afraid of this. :) I'd rather have an academic discussion than buy a pig in a poke, have it shipped to vegas, and then end up in a hole in the desert buried in the plane because my wife had me killed.
 
docmirror said:
You won't ever make money on it unless you get it for nearly free.
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FREE is the only way I'd consider this undertaking. And then only if you really like spinning wrenches.
 
Bill Jennings said:
FREE is the only way I'd consider this undertaking. And then only if you really like spinning wrenches.
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After looking at the pictures I was thinking exactly this and even then you may have paid too much.
 
Way Way Way over priced. It may be worth 5k as you could likely part it out and make that much but not a dime more. It will never be worth what you will have in it to fix it either. Having a salvage history really hurts resale.
 
So, a "free" plane is just like a "free" boat, or a "free" puppy eh...
 
Run. Nothing special about that bird. Even if you got it airworthy, you still have old radios and it looks like a dated interior.

If I got it for free, I would look at parting it out.
 
These types of threads are entertaining. I think scrap airplanes have more value than many here think, how many people have bid on salvage lately?

The prices that scrap airplanes are bringing at auction does not give a person much if any margin to make money on repairing them so they are mostly a labor of love. Do it because you want to learn something, not because you think you're going to get a cheap airplane when you're done. That said, the asking price is too high. Based on the pictures, I'd guess that this plane would sell at auction for around $7-10k, maybe a touch more.

One thing that is interesting are the prop prices people are quoting here. I haven't gotten a quote for a prop for a Beech lately but the last prop I bought (about a year ago) for a Mooney was $8200. I also got a quote for a pair of feathering props for ~18,000 about six months ago so I suspect you can do better than the aforementioned numbers. Regardless of whatever prop is on the airplane I'd consider it junk and if it is repairable that would be a bonus.

The engine may or may not need an overhaul. I would disassemble, assess what you have, and make a decision from there. I just worked on an estimate for a prop strike inspection on a TSIO-550 and just to comply with the Continental service bulletin (no overhaul) was going to take about $5,000 in parts and machine shop labor. Depending on what the machine shop finds you may end up needing more work.

There is obviously some sheet metal work to be done but gear up landings usually don't seem to damage too much. Even then, the parts and labor start to add up. I haven't shopped for any Beech sheet metal lately to know what prices are.

Overall, I'd guess that if you could get the plane for a reasonable price you'd end up having the same amount of money invested in it as you would if you just bought what you wanted. One good thing about doing it this way is that you would be familiar with the condition of most of the airplane after making the necessary repairs, and you would have the opportunity to make it what you want while you fix it up.
 
Yeah, it looks like the prop is not as costly as I thought. There's a couple on BS for under $4k. Add a bit for OH, and it's prolly good to go. The engine teardown could be cheap, or it could be really, really ugly. The tin repair won't be too bad on a Bo unless it was crunched. Only an A&P can tell.

It's still not worth anything like $39k, but if it's what you want, and don't mind some greasy work, it could be a good long term investment. Get a better idea on the engine before signing up.
 
I'll add that the salvage values are only good for folks in the business of salvaging aircraft, and can quickly separate the valuable parts from the junk, and the existing channels set up to liquidate the valuable parts. To me, it would be worth the aluminum scrap value, minus shipping and labor...i.e. a negative number. So no, I wouldn't take it for free.

There's a reason this guy left it sitting until he passed away...he knew it wasn't worth it. The $39k figure? My guess is that's what he told his wife it was worth.
 
Do you want and can you afford a project? People like to fix up old airplanes and rebuild them whether they can sell it for what they have in it or not. It seems to me you need to be an A&P or know one real well to do it yourself. You're talking MAJOR work here.

If that is not the case, and what you REALLY want is a flying airplane, you don't want this airplane because its going to be a lot of work and expense to just get it running and you could buy a working one for less and fly it home!
 
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Having repaired one several years ago, if there is damage to the lower cowling it will be a major expense to repair that alone. It is a very labor intensive job, and some skins are not readily available.
 
sferguson524 said:
Sac, the plane is based at CRQ ~ 3 miles from the beach.. Prolly quite a bit of rust in that engine
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More than the engine. Looking at your pictures, the last one looks like the scat tubing on the co-pilot side is rusted and both rudder pedal sets look like they have corrosion on them.

Being that close to the water and without treatment, I suspect it will have lots of rust and corrosion to deal with.
 
Call Waypoint Aviation (at Chino, I believe) for a look-see; but I think the price is an order of magnitude too high. My gut here. $39k is about right if it's airworthy.
 
I'd love to take on a project.. But if I am going to invest 50-60K in a "project" that I won't recoup, it seems like that might be a case of good money after bad. :)
 
Any members near CRQ wanna take a look at it for me? If i still lived in Socal, i'd pop by
 
sferguson524 said:
I'd love to take on a project.. But if I am going to invest 50-60K in a "project" that I won't recoup, it seems like that might be a case of good money after bad. :)
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You've gotten the answer to your original question. But the words "investment" and "recoup" don't mix well with the word "flying"

Listen: if you want a Bonanza (or Debonare - same thing) then join BeechTalk and review the aircraft for sale over there.

For <40K you will likely be looking at an old vtail like mine... Not recommended (I'm crazy).

40-60K will get you a really nice later model vtail or deb. Great aircraft. Personally, I consider all money "invested" in flying pretty much thrown away... Ok, not quite, but don't expect to get any more than pennies on the dollar...
 
Thanks Brian. Question, is your V-tail a 6 seater? i have a family of 5.
 
sferguson524 said:
Thanks Brian. Question, is your V-tail a 6 seater? i have a family of 5.
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His is a four. Although, technically there is an STC for 3 across seating, it's not comfy nor smart to do it. The planes that will take 5 or 6 people is a pretty short list in the GA world.
 
sferguson524 said:
I am thinking of acquiring a debonair that was landed gear up 5 years ago.. I know this about the plane - and don't know what other questions to ask. Seller is asking 39K for a 1960.. has the 260HP engine.. Looks like it needs flap skins, belly skins, a prop and an engine teardown.. Hasn't been in annual, and seller's husband died. I feel that 39 is a bit much, seeing the level of work that needs done, but i think this could be a fun project with someone watching over my shoulder. I am quite mechanically inclined, so turning wrenches isn't a problem
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With the gear up you may want to do the spar carry through inspection as part of the prebuy.

EDIT: Wait, the plane is still damaged from the gear up? It's worthless.
 
sferguson524 said:
Zang.. sounds like i'd be best served running away from this, and the dear widow should sell it for scrap?
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I wouldn't put it a "scrap" value (since aluminum prices are pretty sad right now and there's not THAT much magnesium in it), however this plane needs a lot more than justifies $30K.
 
sferguson524 said:
Thanks Brian. Question, is your V-tail a 6 seater? i have a family of 5.
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Looks like others have your answer.. I'm a working stiff... So I miss out on most of the fun...

5 pax.. Wow. I can't help there.. Cherokee 6 or twin territory... Remember the saying that two seats in most airplanes are for show... But first ask yourself whether the family is all in for flying...

I got the old vtail when I realized it was mostly just me... And sometimes my wife... But not very often..
 
sferguson524 said:
Zang.. sounds like i'd be best served running away from this, and the dear widow should sell it for scrap?
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Before you do so, I'd respectfully share with the widow what you've determined the value to be. She won't like it but at least you'll prep her for eventually what it will go for.

If you are thinking of buying a Deb.... and have the space... having a spare carcass to pull parts off can be valuable both for the parts as well as a learning tool. If that's the case, tell her you're interested if she drops the price into the single digit AMU territory. Sometimes they get back to you.
 
brian];1532976 said:
Looks like others have your answer.. I'm a working stiff... So I miss out on most of the fun...

5 pax.. Wow. I can't help there.. Cherokee 6 or twin territory... Remember the saying that two seats in most airplanes are for show... But first ask yourself whether the family is all in for flying...

I got the old vtail when I realized it was mostly just me... And sometimes my wife... But not very often..
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My wife and kids love flying with me. Aviation is part of our family.. I asked her to be my wife in a cessna, and gave the 2 older kids their first airplane ride.
 
Thanks everyone for confirming what the old gut was telling me.. It's nice to hear from others that have a LOT more experience than I do..
 
sferguson524 said:
My wife and kids love flying with me. Aviation is part of our family.. I asked her to be my wife in a cessna, and gave her the 2 older kids during their first airplane ride.
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:wink2:

These days you can buy a nice, well equipped, undamaged mid-low time S-35 in the $50-60 range. You'll spend that fixing and upgrading this one. The S-35 has the available 5th seat and big baggage door. IMO it's the best of breed.
 
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Wrecked Deb that's been sitting in salty air for half a decade, as other have already said, is worth little more than what you could drag it across the scales as scrap metal now. Go search Trade-a-Plane online website, there are three flying 1960 Debonairs for $40K or less right now if a Deb is what you want.
 
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