Need some advice

[jrhilliard]

There are other avenues of aviation that will have you flying on the backside of the clock or switching back and forth which can be difficult. I work for a company which does air ambulance and on-demand charter and sometimes the on-demand part is in the middle of the night. I have moved on from the air ambulance and most of the charter and now fly businessfolk who, happily, travel at more reasonable hours.

Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. The schedule is only a small part of the equation for me. It also has to do with pay, stability, location, equipment...

If I ever leave instructing it will probably be for either air ambulance work or Part 91 corporate flying.

 

[wabower]

The 00-grade sandpaper sheets were my biggest hurdle. I couldn't determine if they were just cheap or if they were an added benefit based on their exfoliation properties.

I travelled quite a bit for about a 10 year stretch and learning how to sleep well in a hotel is a learned skill.

It's not home, has different sights, smells, textures, etc.

So the key is to have a set routine, and replicate your pattern at home.

The biggest impediment to sleep in hotel rooms is the stupid TV. Shut it off and read.

 

[dmccormack]

The 00-grade sandpaper sheets were my biggest hurdle. I couldn't determine if they were just cheap or if they were an added benefit based on their exfoliation properties.

...or the ridiculously perfumed fabric softener.

Hampton Inns seem to be consistently perfume-free the last few years.

 

[Everskyward]

Oh yeah, I know what you're talking about. The schedule is only a small part of the equation for me. It also has to do with pay, stability, location, equipment...

I agree. I was never particularly attracted to the airlines and that was back in the days when it was a very desirable job for many pilots. I can't begin to count the number of people who advised me to go for the airlines. No one quite understood why it wasn't my cup of tea and would not have been a good fit for either the airline or me.

 

[wabower]

A couple of friends had hired on with TWA and Braniff back when I was thinking about an airline career. They were quick to point out that my career would be totally tied to a seniority number, and that nothing else mattered regarding my ability for advancement. I couldn't figure out why anybody would want to do that and decided to pursue a different career.

I agree. I was never particularly attracted to the airlines and that was back in the days when it was a very desirable job for many pilots. I can't begin to count the number of people who advised me to go for the airlines. No one quite understood why it wasn't my cup of tea and would not have been a good fit for either the airline or me.

 

[hindsight2020]

This topic hits close to home for me. Here's my internet-free advice for ya.

You gotta figure out what the end goal is. If you're doing this so you can qualify for an entry level regional gig? My condolences. I'd say look for a career that puts real money on the table at the end of the month, so long as you can merely tolerate it, and fly for fun (affording the latter is an issue in it of itself).

I tried making the CFI thing work out, there was just no money. I couldn't justify it with two engineering degrees on the back pocket and no adult-sized income stream. I was able to tap into military aviation and avoid the bullet, which is what keeps me fed currently (Reserves) albeit I remain grossly underemployed (no civilian job). So much for economic recovery, when people are fighting each other for a 50K job....

Work for money, fly for fun. People are terribly misguided when they spew the "do what you love and the rest will follow". That's pure garbage that only rhymes in Disney movies. If I had no financial hardships to deflect that would be true. It's like the rich kid that sets up his own business with daddy's capital money and gets accolades for his cavalier and risk-taking attitude for opening a business. He took NO risk! If I knew that I could gamble all my capital trying to become then next Steve Jobs and failed miserably and had a home, a stable lifestyle, comfort and security to come back to I'd be "loving what I do without abandon" too! Alas, that's not how it works for the majority of the proletariat. We take risks and lose? We go hungry and nobody, not the one with the silver spoon in the least, says boo about it. You're poor because you're morally bankrupt and lazy they say. Gimme a break. Starving artist is for the movies. Maslow hierarchy of needs will get you in the hind every single time. Remind yourself that no matter how neat-o something is to do, if it doesn't FIRST meet the basic and security needs at the bottom of the pyramid, you will be INCAPABLE of attaining self-actualization out of it, unless you're irrational and yield pleasure out of your inability to feed your stomach while you accomplish a pleasurable activity that is. Regional pilots attempt to do it every day. Most who are without daddy's money, a family, or a previous career or retirement check to subsidize their hobby job, simply give up to their real human needs and look for ways of putting food on the table.

Work for money. Fly for fun. I have 'em at my unit. Men in their 50s who loved aviation and aviation didn't love them back. Multiple times in their career they were offered civil service positions to do the mil thing full-time. Alas, they were only navigators and they wanted to be professional pilots real bad, so they balked at these opportunities to chase the 121 iron. 10-20 years later the recall notice hasn't come yet, now they're in their 50s with only creditable service years to hodgepodge a part-time retirement check together and a chitty part 91 on-call 2-peanuts-a-day rate on day-only Slowtation gig to show for their "do what you love" mantra. And they ain't happy and merely console themselves by throwing aviation one-liners about "how do you end up with a fortune in aviation?.." jokes to mask away their failed expectations. How you like "love what you do" now? Optimism-bias I tell you.

Flying is neat-o. We all know it. That's part of the problem with the industry. But for the majority of these positions and for the peanut gallery, neat-o doesn't pay the mortgage (the bank won't take ILSs and sunsets at FLXX as legal tender). Neat-o doesn't allow the off time to be able to relate to your family and friends when they're off too. Neat-o doesn't allow for savings to weather the emergencies of life. Neat-o doesn't afford ya the ability to do what you love recreationally. And most importantly, neat-o doesn't inspire your children when in the process of spewing that garbage mantra to them you have to rationalize the irony of your life in that their economic hardship and familial strife is centrally due to daddy/mommy's desire to "do what she loves", economics be damned. People LOVE riding rollercoasters, some even admire the design and building process. But they don't go attempt to do it for a living at $7.50 a pop and free cotton balls just 'cuz is neat-o. Aviation is plagued with optimism-bias.

Also, beware of the "pay your dues" mantra. I had 'em during my tenure in undergrad/grad school in engineering. Everybody is on the rat race and nobody is making headway, but the second you disengage and say "this ain't worth it" everybody will accuse you of being a self-fulfilling prophecy. "You can't hack it" dynamics we used to call them. You know what happens to people who insist on blindly placing inherent value in "paying dues" where the pot of gold has already been taken by somebody else? They get stuck "paying dues" the rest of their lives. Ring a bell..aviation? I don't find that lifetime recipe as a suitable opportunity cost to merely insulating myself from being called lazy every now and then in my life, by the proverbial ship of fools. I can live with myself. Emerson did say it best, to be Great is to be misunderstood...

My only source of friction is that I can't afford to do it recreationally either while simultaneously running a household, but I'm working on it. But I tell you this much. Doing something I would probably dislike would get me closer to affording the ability to do both (life and flying) well before any 'career' in the cockpit of an airplane and available to the median would ever get me. Work for money, fly for fun.

Good luck

 

[dmccormack]

My only source of friction is that I can't afford to do it recreationally either while simultaneously running a household, but I'm working on it. But I tell you this much. Doing something I would probably dislike would get me closer to affording the ability to do both (life and flying) well before any 'career' in the cockpit of an airplane and available to the median would ever get me. Work for money, fly for fun.

Good luck

OK... so after reading this I called the 800 "Suicide Hotline."

The guy got excited and asked me if I knew how to drive a truck.

 

[gismo]

Yep, but I'll betthat during wartime that rest is not so quality and that they're pretty darn tired. Talk about a bad time to be fatigued while flying.

My dad said that the rules allowed part of the crew of his B29 to nap during parts of the long (sometimes >20 hr) missions but he never did, the stress of the trips (and some caffeine) kept him wide awake. The did typically get plenty of rest time after a mission but there was a fair amount of preparation before the flights as well.

 

[Ted]

My dad said that the rules allowed part of the crew of his B29 to nap during parts of the long (sometimes >20 hr) missions but he never did, the stress of the trips (and some caffeine) kept him wide awake. The did typically get plenty of rest time after a mission but there was a fair amount of preparation before the flights as well.

That sounds more or less like what I'd expect. Get home and, once you can wind down a bit, you may fall right asleep. But for the actual flight itself you'd likely be pretty tired and fatigued by the end.

 

[SCCutler]

A couple of friends had hired on with TWA and Braniff back when I was thinking about an airline career. They were quick to point out that my career would be totally tied to a seniority number, and that nothing else mattered regarding my ability for advancement. I couldn't figure out why anybody would want to do that and decided to pursue a different career.

But just think - if you had hired-on with Braniff (or TWA), no one in the whole wide world would have a higher seniority number than you, now!

 

[Tristar]

Well according to this website, airline pilots are one of the top paid jobs at $120,505. Although I'm not sure I believe the credibility of the website....just something about my experience in the industry.http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/slideshow/37.html?page=5http://www.askmen.com/money/career_150/177c_career.html

 

[jesse]

Airline pilots can certainly make over 100k. But it's a long road to get there and it takes some luck. The seniority system can really screw up your career if your company goes south or merges.

 

[Everskyward]

My only source of friction is that I can't afford to do it recreationally either while simultaneously running a household, but I'm working on it. But I tell you this much. Doing something I would probably dislike would get me closer to affording the ability to do both (life and flying) well before any 'career' in the cockpit of an airplane and available to the median would ever get me. Work for money, fly for fun.

I'm trying to figure out what the moral to your story is since your path doesn't seem to be working either...

 

[jrhilliard]

This topic hits close to home for me. Here's my internet-free advice for ya.

You gotta figure out what the end goal is. If you're doing this so you can qualify for an entry level regional gig? My condolences. I'd say look for a career that puts real money on the table at the end of the month, so long as you can merely tolerate it, and fly for fun (affording the latter is an issue in it of itself).

I tried making the CFI thing work out, there was just no money. I couldn't justify it with two engineering degrees on the back pocket and no adult-sized income stream. I was able to tap into military aviation and avoid the bullet, which is what keeps me fed currently (Reserves) albeit I remain grossly underemployed (no civilian job). So much for economic recovery, when people are fighting each other for a 50K job....

Work for money, fly for fun. People are terribly misguided when they spew the "do what you love and the rest will follow". That's pure garbage that only rhymes in Disney movies. If I had no financial hardships to deflect that would be true. It's like the rich kid that sets up his own business with daddy's capital money and gets accolades for his cavalier and risk-taking attitude for opening a business. He took NO risk! If I knew that I could gamble all my capital trying to become then next Steve Jobs and failed miserably and had a home, a stable lifestyle, comfort and security to come back to I'd be "loving what I do without abandon" too! Alas, that's not how it works for the majority of the proletariat. We take risks and lose? We go hungry and nobody, not the one with the silver spoon in the least, says boo about it. You're poor because you're morally bankrupt and lazy they say. Gimme a break. Starving artist is for the movies. Maslow hierarchy of needs will get you in the hind every single time. Remind yourself that no matter how neat-o something is to do, if it doesn't FIRST meet the basic and security needs at the bottom of the pyramid, you will be INCAPABLE of attaining self-actualization out of it, unless you're irrational and yield pleasure out of your inability to feed your stomach while you accomplish a pleasurable activity that is. Regional pilots attempt to do it every day. Most who are without daddy's money, a family, or a previous career or retirement check to subsidize their hobby job, simply give up to their real human needs and look for ways of putting food on the table.

Work for money. Fly for fun. I have 'em at my unit. Men in their 50s who loved aviation and aviation didn't love them back. Multiple times in their career they were offered civil service positions to do the mil thing full-time. Alas, they were only navigators and they wanted to be professional pilots real bad, so they balked at these opportunities to chase the 121 iron. 10-20 years later the recall notice hasn't come yet, now they're in their 50s with only creditable service years to hodgepodge a part-time retirement check together and a chitty part 91 on-call 2-peanuts-a-day rate on day-only Slowtation gig to show for their "do what you love" mantra. And they ain't happy and merely console themselves by throwing aviation one-liners about "how do you end up with a fortune in aviation?.." jokes to mask away their failed expectations. How you like "love what you do" now? Optimism-bias I tell you.

Flying is neat-o. We all know it. That's part of the problem with the industry. But for the majority of these positions and for the peanut gallery, neat-o doesn't pay the mortgage (the bank won't take ILSs and sunsets at FLXX as legal tender). Neat-o doesn't allow the off time to be able to relate to your family and friends when they're off too. Neat-o doesn't allow for savings to weather the emergencies of life. Neat-o doesn't afford ya the ability to do what you love recreationally. And most importantly, neat-o doesn't inspire your children when in the process of spewing that garbage mantra to them you have to rationalize the irony of your life in that their economic hardship and familial strife is centrally due to daddy/mommy's desire to "do what she loves", economics be damned. People LOVE riding rollercoasters, some even admire the design and building process. But they don't go attempt to do it for a living at $7.50 a pop and free cotton balls just 'cuz is neat-o. Aviation is plagued with optimism-bias.

Also, beware of the "pay your dues" mantra. I had 'em during my tenure in undergrad/grad school in engineering. Everybody is on the rat race and nobody is making headway, but the second you disengage and say "this ain't worth it" everybody will accuse you of being a self-fulfilling prophecy. "You can't hack it" dynamics we used to call them. You know what happens to people who insist on blindly placing inherent value in "paying dues" where the pot of gold has already been taken by somebody else? They get stuck "paying dues" the rest of their lives. Ring a bell..aviation? I don't find that lifetime recipe as a suitable opportunity cost to merely insulating myself from being called lazy every now and then in my life, by the proverbial ship of fools. I can live with myself. Emerson did say it best, to be Great is to be misunderstood...

My only source of friction is that I can't afford to do it recreationally either while simultaneously running a household, but I'm working on it. But I tell you this much. Doing something I would probably dislike would get me closer to affording the ability to do both (life and flying) well before any 'career' in the cockpit of an airplane and available to the median would ever get me. Work for money, fly for fun.

Good luck

I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

However, I'd also like to say after five years as a professional pilot, I'm very satisfied. I've been fortunate enough to fly dozens of types of planes to literally every corner of North America. I've met some incredible people and seen some incredible things. I can't put it all in to words. I've flown an Ercoupe over the mountains of Washington state, landed a 206 on a dirt runway in Mexico, seen both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans from the window of my Cessna 140, crossed the Rocky Mountains in an SR-22, flew a 172 across Canada, and so many other stories.

When I look at everything I've been able to experience in the past 5 years, I can't imagine what the next 30 years hold. I'm truly blessed.

Last week I flew a Mooney Bravo from Nebraska to California for a client. As I talked to him over dinner the night I arrived, he asked me, "So what do you want to do long-term?" Without missing a beat, I answered, "This." It blew him away that I could be so happy with my life.

Somehow I've figured out a way to get paid about $30k/year to have all this fun. Is that a good living? I don't know. But I can pay all my bills, I'm home most nights, and I love the people I work with, so you won't hear me complaining any time soon.

A lot of peoples' happiness comes from expectations. If you expect big cash to roll in, you'll always be disappointed. But I knew all along that I would not get rich from flying. I've made decisions along the way to keep from starving or being homeless and it's worked out ok. I know people in other careers making $30k/year that are perfectly happy as well.

Of course I'm 26, no wife or kids to support, and debt free. I'm fortunate in those respects.

For people with families or debt to repay...I don't know what to say. Maybe aviation isn't the right fit for them, financially speaking. Or maybe it is. It depends on so many factors.

To say aviation is a universally bad industry to be in...I could never say that. That's actually one of my big motivations for teaching--I hope to help other people experience many of the things I've been able to see and do.

 

[Richard]

Hindsight, that was a fun post to read. And I appreciate the time you put into it. I nominate that as the post of the year. Thumbs up, highly entertaining.

Yes, I know there is truth in your words.

 

[Richard]

Being debt free is always sound advice. Think of it as a 2nd income.

 

[wabower]

The funny twist to the story is that I made 3 digits before the comma the 11th year out of school. That happened to be in 1973, within a year of the time all my airline friends were furloughed--for the first time.

But just think - if you had hired-on with Braniff (or TWA), no one in the whole wide world would have a higher seniority number than you, now!

 

[Henning]

My dad said that the rules allowed part of the crew of his B29 to nap during parts of the long (sometimes >20 hr) missions but he never did, the stress of the trips (and some caffeine) kept him wide awake. The did typically get plenty of rest time after a mission but there was a fair amount of preparation before the flights as well.

The flip side to that you can read in Greg Boyington's book. He talks about rigging bungie cords to the stick to serve as an autopilot so he could get some napping in.

 

[Henning]

Well according to this website, airline pilots are one of the top paid jobs at $120,505. Although I'm not sure I believe the credibility of the website....just something about my experience in the industry.http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/slideshow/37.html?page=5

That's when and if you get near the top of the seniority scale. Start in your 20s and you'll be there in your 50s...maybe...if your airline survived. I was making that in my 30s, and better yet, it doesn't matter where I go, I'm not tied to a seniority number at that company. That is really the hidden dirty secret of the airline business. There are guys in their 50s who have been in the industry their entire lives who are making $30k because they've worked for 4 airlines that failed just as their seniority was getting them into decent equipment/route bid positions. I get paid commensurate with my 3000ton Ocean Masters license regardless of who I work for or how long I work for them. I get hired directly as captain, I do not spend time as mate because the union says I have to. The mess of the airline unions has had a big part in making it such a crap industry to work in.

 

[wabower]

When you're 26, what's not to like? The reality is that your life expectancy is about 86. That's another 60 years, of which with any luck you'll be able to fly about 45. You may be able to eke out a living and never look back, but I'll promise you that things look a hell of a lot different at 36, 46 and other 10-year intervals than they do now.

I see too many 56 and 66 year-olds who realize who have stuck with flying airplanes until they realize it's too late for them to make any decent money and they haven't ever made enough to fund a decent retirement plan. It's no fun to listen to their sad stories, and try to help them figure out a way to salvage something at the end. If you've ever wondered why so many old corporate and GA pilots end up working for the FAA for the last 10 years of their career, this is the answer.

I wish you well.

Of course I'm 26, no wife or kids to support, and debt free. I'm fortunate in those respects.

For people with families or debt to repay...I don't know what to say. Maybe aviation isn't the right fit for them, financially speaking. Or maybe it is. It depends on so many factors.

To say aviation is a universally bad industry to be in...I could never say that. That's actually one of my big motivations for teaching--I hope to help other people experience many of the things I've been able to see and do.

 

[Henning]

I don't disagree with anything you said. I'm sorry it didn't work out for you.

However, I'd also like to say after five years as a professional pilot, I'm very satisfied. I've been fortunate enough to fly dozens of types of planes to literally every corner of North America. I've met some incredible people and seen some incredible things. I can't put it all in to words. I've flown an Ercoupe over the mountains of Washington state, landed a 206 on a dirt runway in Mexico, seen both the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans from the window of my Cessna 140, crossed the Rocky Mountains in an SR-22, flew a 172 across Canada, and so many other stories.

When I look at everything I've been able to experience in the past 5 years, I can't imagine what the next 30 years hold. I'm truly blessed.

Last week I flew a Mooney Bravo from Nebraska to California for a client. As I talked to him over dinner the night I arrived, he asked me, "So what do you want to do long-term?" Without missing a beat, I answered, "This." It blew him away that I could be so happy with my life.

Somehow I've figured out a way to get paid about $30k/year to have all this fun. Is that a good living? I don't know. But I can pay all my bills, I'm home most nights, and I love the people I work with, so you won't hear me complaining any time soon.

A lot of peoples' happiness comes from expectations. If you expect big cash to roll in, you'll always be disappointed. But I knew all along that I would not get rich from flying. I've made decisions along the way to keep from starving or being homeless and it's worked out ok. I know people in other careers making $30k/year that are perfectly happy as well.

Of course I'm 26, no wife or kids to support, and debt free. I'm fortunate in those respects.

For people with families or debt to repay...I don't know what to say. Maybe aviation isn't the right fit for them, financially speaking. Or maybe it is. It depends on so many factors.

To say aviation is a universally bad industry to be in...I could never say that. That's actually one of my big motivations for teaching--I hope to help other people experience many of the things I've been able to see and do.

Yep, that's the key to your ability to be happy at $30k a year. The key for your future happiness is to stay that way or marry rich....

 

[Everskyward]

When you're 26, what's not to like? The reality is that your life expectancy is about 86. That's another 60 years, of which with any luck you'll be able to fly about 45. You may be able to eke out a living and never look back, but I'll promise you that things look a hell of a lot different at 36, 46 and other 10-year intervals than they do now.

I see too many 56 and 66 year-olds who realize who have stuck with flying airplanes until they realize it's too late for them to make any decent money and they haven't ever made enough to fund a decent retirement plan. It's no fun to listen to their sad stories, and try to help them figure out a way to salvage something at the end. If you've ever wondered why so many old corporate and GA pilots end up working for the FAA for the last 10 years of their career, this is the answer.

I wish you well.

I'll chime in as a 53-year-old who has worked in aviation in some form since I was 22 and I don't regret it at all, even if it ended tomorrow. I have always made a steady, if not spectacular living and I'm more financially secure than many people my age. Granted, I also didn't have a family, but I probably wouldn't have had one anyway even with another career choice. It had nothing to do with finances.

One thing people need to realize, though, is that flying for a living is not like flying as a hobby. The job comes with all the baggage as other jobs and probably more. Still I can't imagine voluntarily choosing a career just for the money. You spend a lot of your life working so it might as well be at something that interests you.

 

[bbchien]

jrh, I'm depressed to say you make less than my receptionist. She gets healthcare and a pension as well.

But it is for reasons such as yours and Tris' that I took advantage of the remnants of the GI bill and went back to school.

 

[colohan]

That's when and if you get near the top of the seniority scale. Start in your 20s and you'll be there in your 50s...maybe...if your airline survived.

Perhaps folks can explain this to me -- why are airline pilots promoted and paid based on seniority? Would it not make more sense to base it on track record, experience and demonstrated skill? Or is the assumption that all pilots get better at the same rate, or their skill is irrelevant as long as they are "good enough to get the job done"?

Chris

 

[wabower]

Big deal. Lots of guys used the GI bill to get their GED. Or some initials, anyway.

jrh, I'm depressed to say you make less than my receptionist. She gets healthcare and a pension as well.

But it is for reasons such as yours and Tris' that I took advantage of the remnants of the GI bill and went back to school.

 

[SCCutler]

Perhaps folks can explain this to me -- why are airline pilots promoted and paid based on seniority? Would it not make more sense to base it on track record, experience and demonstrated skill? Or is the assumption that all pilots get better at the same rate, or their skill is irrelevant as long as they are "good enough to get the job done"?

Chris

CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement). The Unions ensured this.

Not judging, that's for others.

 

[Henning]

Perhaps folks can explain this to me -- why are airline pilots promoted and paid based on seniority? Would it not make more sense to base it on track record, experience and demonstrated skill? Or is the assumption that all pilots get better at the same rate, or their skill is irrelevant as long as they are "good enough to get the job done"?

Chris

One word says it all..."Union"

 

[jrhilliard]

When you're 26, what's not to like? The reality is that your life expectancy is about 86. That's another 60 years, of which with any luck you'll be able to fly about 45. You may be able to eke out a living and never look back, but I'll promise you that things look a hell of a lot different at 36, 46 and other 10-year intervals than they do now.

Yep, that's the key to your ability to be happy at $30k a year. The key for your future happiness is to stay that way or marry rich....

jrh, I'm depressed to say you make less than my receptionist. She gets healthcare and a pension as well.

Ok, I'll bite.......how much should I be making in order to be happy? What's the magic number? $50k/year? $100k/year?

This is absurd. I just posted that I'm able to pay all my bills, and for the record, I have money left over for saving/investing, too. I don't want to come off as bragging, but I'm pretty decent at managing money.

Yet there's never a shortage of nay sayers. What's wrong with being content with where I'm at in life, right here, right now, at this moment? I never said *everybody* should be happy with $30k/year for *the rest of their lives*. I said *I* found a way for *me* to make a decent living *right now*, and I don't regret it one bit. Aviation has been good to me.

I have numerous friends in the aviation industry who have done well for themselves financially, making $50k-$60k/year in their late 20s and early 30s. I also have friends like hindsight2020 whose flying dreams never really worked out. I also know people outside of aviation who grew up poor and for one reason or another found a way to become quite wealthy. Then again, I met a guy the other day that went from a $110k/year office job before the recession to $11/hour as a clerk at Barnes and Noble now. What does all this prove? Nothing, other than that life is unpredictable regardless of the industry one works in. You can't count on your pay getting progressively higher over time. All you can do is make the most of the moment and roll with the punches all through life.

Finally, I know plenty of people who make more money than me who are miserable. And plenty of people who make less that are happy. As long as a person isn't so broke that they're constantly wondering where their next meal will come from, happiness comes from much deeper causes than money. Friends, family, God, making a difference in the world...however you want to look at it, those are the kinds of things that matter in life. Go to a third world country and you'll see proof of this idea all over the place.

 

[jrhilliard]

Perhaps folks can explain this to me -- why are airline pilots promoted and paid based on seniority? Would it not make more sense to base it on track record, experience and demonstrated skill? Or is the assumption that all pilots get better at the same rate, or their skill is irrelevant as long as they are "good enough to get the job done"?

The simple answer, as others have said, comes from the unions. But an even simpler answer, to the core of the issue, is "safety."

Look at it this way: let's say airlines went to a "merit-based" system of promotion rather than seniority. How would a pilot's skills be evaluated? By on-time departures? By how many times they make it to the destination rather than diverting? By peer review? By how many times they don't crash?

You might already be seeing the problems. Set up a system based on rewarding pilots for completing flights and all sorts of external pressures pop up. Pilots would be tempted to defer maintenance, push into bad weather, fly fatigued, etc., all in the name of getting promoted. The captain's job is not to get to the destination--it is to operate the aircraft safely. Sometimes that means cancelling the flight, and the pilot should not be penalized for such a decision.

Base the upgrades on reviews from coworkers or supervisors and you open up the system to politics and butt kissing--again, at the least, it's not fair, and at the most, it has the potential to be unsafe. Suppose a captain was about to do something unsafe and the copilot didn't want to speak up, for fear of ticking the captain off and not getting a good review...bad things could happen.

Now, consider the impact of basing upgrades on pure flying skill. How do you measure perfection? Pilots can go their entire career without crashing once. They can all handle engine failures equally well. They can all keep the needles crossed up within a one dot deflection during an ILS approach. They can all hold airspeeds within 5 knots. How do you differentiate?

For how much I think the seniority system is a pain, I'm glad they have it. It really does keep airlines safe.

 

[jesse]

Ok, I'll bite.......how much should I be making in order to be happy? What's the magic number? $50k/year? $100k/year?

There is no magic salary number. Plus location really changes things - $30,000 in Nebraska is very different than $30,000 in LA.

This is absurd. I just posted that I'm able to pay all my bills, and for the record, I have money left over for saving/investing, too. I don't want to come off as bragging, but I'm pretty decent at managing money.

I'm convinced that salary does not determine if you are broke or financially stable. I've known people with 20k salaries that are stable and people with $100,000 salaries that are broke.

The biggest thing is to learn to live within your means. When the salary grows you can expand your means but don't ever lie to yourself. It seems like you have the balance figured out.

Yet there's never a shortage of nay sayers. What's wrong with being content with where I'm at in life, right here, right now, at this moment? I never said *everybody* should be happy with $30k/year for *the rest of their lives*. I said *I* found a way for *me* to make a decent living *right now*, and I don't regret it one bit. Aviation has been good to me.

I don't think anyone is saying there is something wrong with a $30,000 salary. You're living within your means and that is all that matters. The problem though, is there are folks with kids, etc that simply cannot get by on the salary. Perhaps aviation isn't for them.

I have numerous friends in the aviation industry who have done well for themselves financially, making $50k-$60k/year in their late 20s and early 30s. I also have friends like hindsight2020 whose flying dreams never really worked out. I also know people outside of aviation who grew up poor and for one reason or another found a way to become quite wealthy. Then again, I met a guy the other day that went from a $110k/year office job before the recession to $11/hour as a clerk at Barnes and Noble now. What does all this prove? Nothing, other than that life is unpredictable regardless of the industry one works in. You can't count on your pay getting progressively higher over time. All you can do is make the most of the moment and roll with the punches all through life.

You've got it. There isn't a person out there that can't fall on their ass. The wrong circumstances hitting someone at the wrong time can destroy someone financially. That said, the strong ones will always recover.

If you're stupid with money - you can make a million a year and be broke and unhappy. Plenty of people out there doing just that.

One can get into aviation, make a living, and be happy. You do have to be really careful though as to how you approach it. The initial salaries, as you know, are very low for the cost of training it takes to get the job. I'm not sure I know of a career that pays as poorly as aviation for the investment required.

It wasn't too long ago - I was 16 years old - sitting at my computer trying to decide what to do with my life. I really really wanted to be a professional pilot. I sat down, ran the numbers, and just realized it wasn't viable for me at the time. I had no way to pay for all the training required to be employable. Paying for all of it with loans didn't add up for me because I didn't see how I could possibly pay for the loans on the paycheck I'd receive. I chose a different route and I'm happy with the direction I took.

To each their own

 

[Henning]

Ok, I'll bite.......how much should I be making in order to be happy? What's the magic number? $50k/year? $100k/year?

This is absurd. I just posted that I'm able to pay all my bills, and for the record, I have money left over for saving/investing, too. I don't want to come off as bragging, but I'm pretty decent at managing money.

Depends on how well someone else has your back really. Here's something for you to contemplate. Next week you crash (it happens and can be through no fault of your own) and you end up unable to work for say a year with 6 months of that in the hospital. What will your situation be then? Who's got your back? You insured for all that?

As for the "magic number", it's variable, but I enjoy myself a lot more in years where I make $180k than when I make $30k (which is all I still really need to make. I can cover all my needs for the year working 9 weeks, but it doesn't leave a bunch left over for entertainment) plus I get to stash away a lot more for those "what ifs..." and for enjoying my vacation time. I actually enjoy myself most on the years I make around $90k. It's a really good balance between time working (about half the year) and money to enjoy my time off while still banking money. I've never worked "stable" jobs. The contract I'm on now is the closest I have ever been, but I haven't been "broke" in quite a few years. I have spent a good bit of time in third world countries and know what it's like. If you are happy with that level of existence, good on you, you will always live a happy life. I can't manage with that though.

The part about *not always* making the $30k and making more when you get older and your situation changes.... Well, that's not an overnight thing. It's a struggle that takes a few years to realize as well as opportunities. You can't just say one day "Oh, I'll have a wife and kids, I need to switch to a job that trebles my earnings tomorrow." if you haven't maneuvered yourself into that position. When it's time for you to move up, what's your planned route? Money issues are the leading cause of strife in a relationship and divorce. You are in an industry where the time to get into the $70k+ bracket is measured in decades. A green 18 year old deckhand in this (yacht) industry makes between $30 & $40k and has no living expenses. In 5 years he can be making $100k.

My first years captains license bought my pilots license (and an airplane, ever see a pilot make $400 a day in tips on a daily basis?). 20 years ago I took a job with a commuter (we called Regional Airlines "Commuters" back then). Went through the training worked for a while and was looking at my pay stub and figuring I was going to make $18k that year and would be very lucky to be making $40k in 6 years given current upgrade times when my phone rang. Can I come run a boat? $120k 28 days on, 14 off.... I like flying and all, but damn, running boats ain't a bad life either and at least they pay me well for it. The moral is, everyone in aviation should have a back up plan that can step them up to a paygrade commensurate with a step up in responsibilities in life, either that or marry rich.

 

[jrhilliard]

Depends on how well someone else has your back really. Here's something for you to contemplate. Next week you crash (it happens and can be through no fault of your own) and you end up unable to work for say a year with 6 months of that in the hospital. What will your situation be then? Who's got your back? You insured for all that?

Yes. I have money in savings to cover the basic stuff like rent, and I buy my own health insurance. That's what Suze Orman taught me

I have spent a good bit of time in third world countries and know what it's like. If you are happy with that level of existence, good on you, you will always live a happy life. I can't manage with that though.

I didn't mean I would like to have a third world standard of living. I meant the people in those places oftentimes have very little in the way of material possessions or financial resources, yet they're amazingly happy. They have friends, family, God, and so on...the things I think lead to true happiness.

The part about *not always* making the $30k and making more when you get older and your situation changes.... Well, that's not an overnight thing. It's a struggle that takes a few years to realize as well as opportunities. You can't just say one day "Oh, I'll have a wife and kids, I need to switch to a job that trebles my earnings tomorrow." if you haven't maneuvered yourself into that position. When it's time for you to move up, what's your planned route? Money issues are the leading cause of strife in a relationship and divorce. You are in an industry where the time to get into the $70k+ bracket is measured in decades.

When it comes to moving up, I've got several ideas. Hopefully our flight school will grow to a point of being able to pay better for the management side of my job...I'm taking a calculated risk of staying with the company in hopes of better pay as we grow. I've also become specialized enough that I might be able to command better pay simply for teaching...my aerobatics instructor made $70k/year from teaching, so I know it's possible. I'd also like to become a designated examiner in the future, at least for LSAs, and possibly for higher ratings. $300/checkride is good supplemental income.

If none of those things work out, I can always look for work elsewhere. I'm a smart guy, I'd figure something out.

When it comes to women, I'm well aware of the stress finances can have on a relationship. But I think it's a lot more important to be on the same page and see eye to eye with your significant other when it comes to money, rather than just making more of it. A couple can be poor and happy as long as they both agree to it

My first years captains license bought my pilots license (and an airplane, ever see a pilot make $400 a day in tips on a daily basis?). 20 years ago I took a job with a commuter (we called Regional Airlines "Commuters" back then). Went through the training worked for a while and was looking at my pay stub and figuring I was going to make $18k that year and would be very lucky to be making $40k in 6 years given current upgrade times when my phone rang. Can I come run a boat? $120k 28 days on, 14 off.... I like flying and all, but damn, running boats ain't a bad life either and at least they pay me well for it.

I don't mean this in a bad way at all...but...it sounds like you don't love flying the same way a lot of pilots do. A person has to almost love it like a drug to make it in this industry. If they have an, "Ehhh...I could take it or leave it attitude," especially right off the bat in their career, they probably are better off doing something else.

The moral is, everyone in aviation should have a back up plan that can step them up to a paygrade commensurate with a step up in responsibilities in life, either that or marry rich.

I agree.

 

[Henning]

I don't mean this in a bad way at all...but...it sounds like you don't love flying the same way a lot of pilots do. A person has to almost love it like a drug to make it in this industry. If they have an, "Ehhh...I could take it or leave it attitude," especially right off the bat in their career, they probably are better off doing something else.

I love flying. I've owned 3 airplanes over a span of over 15 years spending my own money. I've had other jobs flying, pipeline patrols, Ag, repos and seizures, ferry work, it's great, but it won't keep me in eight balls and hookers (which is cheaper than being married with children BTW). My current job, as soon as we get to Indonesia, will also give me access to a Twotter on amphibs. Spent a few bucks the other day to do some splash and goes in a Beaver moored on the other side of the seawall from me and while we were in Brisbane I was getting some time in the bosses Bell 407. It is possible to enjoy aviation without working in it, actually, it may be easier to enjoy it as you can afford to do it on your own terms rather than someone elses.

 

[Ted]

One thing people need to realize, though, is that flying for a living is not like flying as a hobby. The job comes with all the baggage as other jobs and probably more. Still I can't imagine voluntarily choosing a career just for the money. You spend a lot of your life working so it might as well be at something that interests you.

I tell people the same thing, although I only consider myself a half-professional pilot since it doesn't pay my bills (that's what I have my day job for). I love the flying that I do, but there are some days when it has baggage that I don't want. I made my choices and I am extremely fortunate that things have fallen the way they have, so I get out of bed, fire up the engines, and get to flying. Of course, on almost every flight I find things that make me smile.

I am glad I have another job that pays the bills and has more of a career path, but my flying is pretty unique and my career goals are probably different from James.

 

[TMetzinger]

Perhaps folks can explain this to me -- why are airline pilots promoted and paid based on seniority? Would it not make more sense to base it on track record, experience and demonstrated skill? Or is the assumption that all pilots get better at the same rate, or their skill is irrelevant as long as they are "good enough to get the job done"?

Chris

That's essentially it. Bus drivers are the same way.

 

[SkyHog]

Perhaps folks can explain this to me -- why are airline pilots promoted and paid based on seniority? Would it not make more sense to base it on track record, experience and demonstrated skill? Or is the assumption that all pilots get better at the same rate, or their skill is irrelevant as long as they are "good enough to get the job done"?

Chris

Like everything else that makes 0 sense in employment, you can sniff that giant nugget back to the Unions.

See, like most Unions, ALPA (and the other one, whatever it is) is so short sighted, they only see "Keep job now, keep fair job!" But they failed to see what happens when pilots leave for other airlines (voluntarily or not), so they've actually pigeonholed their own base into never seeking better opportunities, because they'll lose seniority, and seniority is key.

It works out great for the airlines, because they can start every pilot applicant at the bottom. It works great for the unions because, well, hey, they still get their dues, even when they botch something like this.

 

[jrhilliard]

I love flying. I've owned 3 airplanes over a span of over 15 years spending my own money. I've had other jobs flying, pipeline patrols, Ag, repos and seizures, ferry work, it's great, but it won't keep me in eight balls and hookers (which is cheaper than being married with children BTW). My current job, as soon as we get to Indonesia, will also give me access to a Twotter on amphibs. Spent a few bucks the other day to do some splash and goes in a Beaver moored on the other side of the seawall from me and while we were in Brisbane I was getting some time in the bosses Bell 407. It is possible to enjoy aviation without working in it, actually, it may be easier to enjoy it as you can afford to do it on your own terms rather than someone elses.

Fair enough. I underestimated you!

Personally, I'm happier working within the industry rather than trying to make a bunch of money to do it on my own dime. But it's clear you love it just as much and found a way to afford it. That's awesome. Good for you.

 

[jrhilliard]

Like everything else that makes 0 sense in employment, you can sniff that giant nugget back to the Unions.

See, like most Unions, ALPA (and the other one, whatever it is) is so short sighted, they only see "Keep job now, keep fair job!" But they failed to see what happens when pilots leave for other airlines (voluntarily or not), so they've actually pigeonholed their own base into never seeking better opportunities, because they'll lose seniority, and seniority is key.

It works out great for the airlines, because they can start every pilot applicant at the bottom. It works great for the unions because, well, hey, they still get their dues, even when they botch something like this.

So what would be a better way of doing it, without compromising safety like I talked about in my previous post?

 

[Ted]

Fair enough. I underestimated you!

Never underestimate Henning.

 

[Everskyward]

Personally, I'm happier working within the industry rather than trying to make a bunch of money to do it on my own dime.

Same here. I'd never make enough dimes in some other industry to fly the airplanes I fly anyway. I'm also not enchanted with the idea of jumping job to job or contract to contract in order to make more money. I'm just lazy at heart, businesswise. I know that independent contractors flying the same airplane I fly get on the average $800-$850/day plus expenses, but from that they need to pay for their training and other things since they are not employees.

It's interesting and good to listen to other people's stories, but in the end you are not them and people need to decide for themselves what they want.