Need some advice

[SkyHog]

The difference with our situation is that we don't need another CFII. If we were actually turning away significant amounts of business because our staff wasn't qualified to provide the training, then we'd have two options--send our current staff to school to get qualified, or hire new staff who already hold the needed credentials. Both options are acceptable, IMO.

As it stands now, if a customer wants to do instrument training, we put them on the schedule with a CFII. If they want to fly their own aircraft, say, a 182 or a Citabria or something, and it requires an endorsement (high performance, tailwheel, etc.) we set them up with an instructor who has the proper endorsements.

If an instructor isn't qualified to provide the training, that's not the company's fault. The revenue is still flowing in to the company...it just isn't flowing in to that particular instructor's pocket. This is why it's beneficial to have any many qualifications as possible when it comes to teaching.

Why is that shady?

That is a slight bit different, knowing that you don't need another CFII. But if you did need another CFII, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, knowing what I know about the industry, that you would be more likely to hire a CFII than you would to provide job training to a proven CFI in your ranks.

Why?

Because you can, and because CFIs allow that to happen by paying for it out of pocket.

In this case, its not really shady, per se, since you don't need one, but its still not right (nor acceptable in almost any other industry).

 

[Areeda]

A school in AZ where I trained and taught would give you (the instructor)one free rating per year (xmas bonus) that you worked there...I dont know if they do that anymore but for the people who didnt burn out (super high paced school) it was a sweet deal...(seaplane/tailwheel ratings etc)..but most took them up on the II. ..I think it is important for someone to have skin in the game of some kind for thier CFI ratings etc...but I also think it pays to make invesments in the right people . If someone needs a II at my operation...I will help them out ...but I dont give it away either. my 2c

I think the benefits of employee loyalty cannot be overestimated.

My father told me "if they work for you remember that if they take care of you, it is your duty to take care of them. If they screw with you <you have to know my dad to fill this in>"

 

[Everskyward]

And, as I said earlier, if a boss asked me to pay for job-necessary training out of pocket, I'd balk and walk as quickly as possible. And that is not just in IT.

But according to jrhilliard it is not job-necessary training. They simply won't assign instrument students to instructors without a CFII.

 

[dmccormack]

Because you can, and because CFIs allow that to happen by paying for it out of pocket.

In this case, its not really shady, per se, since you don't need one, but its still not right (nor acceptable in almost any other industry).

Pshaw. (That's my old-fogeyism showing )

The Tech industry thrives -- thrives -- on hiring people who have learned stuff elsewhere and someone else's dime.

Very few companies pay for much of anything anymore. "Overhead" is a swear word.

 

[Ted]

Very few companies pay for much of anything anymore. "Overhead" is a swear word.

In engineering jobs with any sort of major company it's pretty routing for them to pay for continuing education. Coming out of school for me, most of the places that we all looked at were big into pointing out how they would pay for a master's degree. Of course, then they own you for a few years, but that's reasonable.

 

[Everskyward]

Just for some perspective, the aviation company I work for now paid for all my training including the first initial (King Air 200). However for each initial, and I've gone to four (King Air, Lear 35, Hawker 800, Citation Sovereign) I was required to sign a one year pro-rated training agreement. Like many companies they got burned in the past by paying for someone's initial or type rating and having them leave soon afterwards. I think it's reasonable that you would work for a year anyway if a company is going to pay $15,000 to $30,000 for a type rating.

On the other hand, I paid for every other rating except helicopter CFI myself. I got one of those 99s scholarships for that one. Unfortunately I never used it.

 

[dmccormack]

Just for some perspective, the aviation company I work for now paid for all my training including the first initial (King Air 200). However for each initial, and I've gone to four (King Air, Lear 35, Hawker 800, Citation Sovereign) I was required to sign a one year pro-rated training agreement. Like many companies they got burned in the past by paying for someone's initial or type rating and having them leave soon afterwards. I think it's reasonable that you would work for a year anyway if a company is going to pay $15,000 to $30,000 for a type rating.

Same for corporate training/ education/ credit programs -- there's almost always a promise to repay if you leave before a certain time.

The technology industry in the 90s really shattered the "old way" of pension/training/loyalty/etc.

It was supposed to be a whole new world, not fogey-fied and free and wealth driven.

Yeah, that worked.

 

[wabower]

That sounds good and moral when you say it, and might be partly true. Even so, it's still unlikely to happen. The cost to obtain the rating is a direct expense out of the employer's pocket that may or may not ever be recovered. And with no guarantees the employee will be around for the time required, the lesser of evils is to go with the flow and hire someone who may not be quite as good but doesn't require any out-of-pocket $ for training.

FWIW, long-range planning in the GA segment is what's happening after lunch.

..and also some of the pilots got them at other airlines on their dime. An important part worth mentioning

Southwest does not pay for the type rating because they don't have to. There are plenty of pilots that'll pay for it themselves or already have it.

The problem is -- there are plenty of instructors that are already a CFII. A new employee may sound attractive but IME it doesn't matter how good you interview you'll end up with a fair share of bad employees. A bad employee will cost your business dearly. When one has a good employee they can trust - it would make a lot of business sense to help them out with their CFII.

 

[Ghery]

You can take off feeling fine and then the drone of the engines...

Sounds like my wife in the right seat. XC and she's out fairly quickly. Which is fine with me, it means I'm not scaring her.

 

[SCCutler]

By the way, FWIW, SWA no longer requires a 737 type to get interviewed; you're expected to have it by start if you are hired, however. This was, I am told, changed in order to improve the quality of the applicant pool.

 

[Henning]

That's the "problem" with flying for a living...one can't (well...shouldn't) fly fatigued.

Hehe, never flown Ag I take it. When it's on, it's on and as long as the wind and weather allow it, you fly.

 

[Henning]

I'm not saying its not industry standard, but I am saying its wrong, and its just as much the employee's fault as it is the employer's.

And, as I said earlier, if a boss asked me to pay for job-necessary training out of pocket, I'd balk and walk as quickly as possible. And that is not just in IT.

Well, it is the norm in industries that people actually WANT to be in. I've paid for all my licenses. I know some companies that will pay for upgrades and such after a certain proof of longevity, especially if the employer will see a return. Thing is, with something like a II, where will they see the return? Most young CFIs will move out of the industry within a year or so. If James isn't experiencing turning away instrument students, and Tristan isn't available in the mornings anyway, and in a few more months she'll more likely than not be gone, where is his motivation to get her rated? He's got the situation covered, she doesn't. Who should have the motivation?

 

[flyersfan31]

Why does that matter?

Because, Nick, not everyone like to live their life ****ing off everyone around them.

If the FBO owner is ****ed at freelance CFI X, you think he won't make it known around the field. Difficult to rent. yada yada yada.

It's not necessary to **** off everyone, all the time.

 

[flyersfan31]

Mr JRH

May I say that I am impressed that you didn't come in here and **** all over Tristan, as many might have???

Your's was a well-thought out, fair response to a well-thought out, fair question.

If anyone begrudges you the fact that you take 50ish percent of the CFI pay they are idiots or know nothing about business. You have rent, loans, mx to pay. Moreover, pilots are, as a rule, cheap-azz SOBs who won't pay more than $50 for instruction unless it involves an SR71 or something.

I hope you and Tris can work something out. Aviation needs both of you.

 

[jrhilliard]

That is a slight bit different, knowing that you don't need another CFII. But if you did need another CFII, I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, knowing what I know about the industry, that you would be more likely to hire a CFII than you would to provide job training to a proven CFI in your ranks.

Actually, no.

Finding a new CFI is a pain. Sure, we have a stack of resumes on file, but it's very difficult to get the right fit. Somebody who is a good teacher, good customer service, dresses sharp, knows how to sell themselves, wants to live in Nebraska, wants to stick around for more than a few months, has a flexible schedule, willing to work for $20/hour, good technical skills when it comes to flying (knows the regs, knows how to deal with weather, etc.), experience in our aircraft types, is willing to follow our syllabus, has a personality that fits with the owner and myself....the list could go on.

It's not impossible, but it's not something I'd take lightly. Instructors are a dime a dozen, but good instructors are hard to come by, and good instructors for our operation are even more rare.

And assuming we found somebody who was the right fit, it takes a lot of time and money to get them up to speed on our policies, computer system, aircraft, etc.



It's not like we don't have any perks for our instructors. Free instrument currency, night currency, flight reviews, aircraft checkouts, and occasional general proficiency flights, like spins, for example...all for the purpose of keeping us sharp and improving our skills. We definitely want to invest in our staff...it's just that there are budget constraints and we can't offer everything under the sun.

 

[Henning]

Actually, no.

Finding a new CFI is a pain. Sure, we have a stack of resumes on file, but it's very difficult to get the right fit. Somebody who wants to live in Nebraska,

You could pretty much leave it at that...
The root of the problem is that most people are cheap and aviation isn't.

 

[jrhilliard]

Hehe, never flown Ag I take it. When it's on, it's on and as long as the wind and weather allow it, you fly.

Ag isn't flying. It's farming with an airplane

But seriously, it is. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just that the work environment and risk factors associated with ag spraying are completely different from more mainstream flying jobs like instructing, charters, or airlines.

I've never personally done ag flying, but I've dropped a lot of meat missiles (skydivers) and I'd imagine the two are similar. Day VFR, very repetitive. It has its moments, but you're not really dealing with managing a cockpit, talking to controllers, navigating, flying on instruments, etc. Those are the mentally intensive tasks I worry about screwing up when I think of flying fatigued.

 

[jrhilliard]

I hope you and Tris can work something out. Aviation needs both of you.

Haha...thanks!

On a totally different note, you fly out of Wings Field?

I got my tailwheel endorsement there a few years ago, and bought my C-140 in Doylestown, PA. Used to live near Reading, PA. Did all my training with an aerobatic guy named Bruce Everett. Fun part of the country to fly. Small world!

 

[bbchien]

Actually, no.

Finding a new CFI is a pain. Sure, we have a stack of resumes on file, but it's very difficult to get the right fit. Somebody who is a good teacher, good customer service, dresses sharp, knows how to sell themselves, wants to live in Nebraska, wants to stick around for more than a few months, has a flexible schedule, willing to work for $20/hour, good technical skills when it comes to flying (knows the regs, knows how to deal with weather, etc.), experience in our aircraft types, is willing to follow our syllabus, has a personality that fits with the owner and myself....the list could go on.

The real problem remains. There just isn't enough $$s to get and support what we need. Sullenberger was exactly correct.

 

[Henning]

Ag isn't flying. It's farming with an airplane

But seriously, it is. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just that the work environment and risk factors associated with ag spraying are completely different from more mainstream flying jobs like instructing, charters, or airlines.

I've never personally done ag flying, but I've dropped a lot of meat missiles (skydivers) and I'd imagine the two are similar. Day VFR, very repetitive. It has its moments, but you're not really dealing with managing a cockpit, talking to controllers, navigating, flying on instruments, etc. Those are the mentally intensive tasks I worry about screwing up when I think of flying fatigued.

Uh, yes, actually you are. It's not the old days anymore where you had flagmen at the ends of the field. You now have a Satloc system you manage which has you flying a sub 1 meter lightbar/localizer across every run which you have to intercept while doing a keyhole turn at every end of the field departing and entering the field under the phone wire much of the time. These systems also generate a report which sees far more scrutiny than any airline pilot will ever see, even on a 709 ride after a crash. You also have pressure and flow to manage at the same time to make sure your get proper and even coverage. Sometimes you even have to calculate swath speeds "on the fly" when you have quartering winds on the field (that's why the Satloc Flow Control is a very nice option, too bad it's nearly as expensive as most recip ag planes), and you do all this while spending your entire day at 3' off the ground except when you are ferrying to the field, then you are at 300' with no autopilot or nav guidance except for a set of Platte Charts which you have to match up with the topographical features around you to make sure you're doing the correct field. You also have to make sure that you have the right chemical for the crop and any adjacent crops that it may drift on.

 

[wabower]

And so?

Uh, yes, actually you are. It's not the old days anymore where you had flagmen at the ends of the field. You now have a Satloc system you manage which has you flying a sub 1 meter lightbar/localizer across every run which you have to intercept while doing a keyhole turn at every end of the field departing and entering the field under the phone wire much of the time. These systems also generate a report which sees far more scrutiny than any airline pilot will ever see, even on a 709 ride after a crash. You also have pressure and flow to manage at the same time to make sure your get proper and even coverage. Sometimes you even have to calculate swath speeds "on the fly" when you have quartering winds on the field (that's why the Satloc Flow Control is a very nice option, too bad it's nearly as expensive as most recip ag planes), and you do all this while spending your entire day at 3' off the ground except when you are ferrying to the field, then you are at 300' with no autopilot or nav guidance except for a set of Platte Charts which you have to match up with the topographical features around you to make sure you're doing the correct field. You also have to make sure that you have the right chemical for the crop and any adjacent crops that it may drift on.

 

[jrhilliard]

Uh, yes, actually you are. It's not the old days anymore where you had flagmen at the ends of the field. You now have a Satloc system you manage which has you flying a sub 1 meter lightbar/localizer across every run which you have to intercept while doing a keyhole turn at every end of the field departing and entering the field under the phone wire much of the time. These systems also generate a report which sees far more scrutiny than any airline pilot will ever see, even on a 709 ride after a crash. You also have pressure and flow to manage at the same time to make sure your get proper and even coverage. Sometimes you even have to calculate swath speeds "on the fly" when you have quartering winds on the field (that's why the Satloc Flow Control is a very nice option, too bad it's nearly as expensive as most recip ag planes), and you do all this while spending your entire day at 3' off the ground except when you are ferrying to the field, then you are at 300' with no autopilot or nav guidance except for a set of Platte Charts which you have to match up with the topographical features around you to make sure you're doing the correct field. You also have to make sure that you have the right chemical for the crop and any adjacent crops that it may drift on.

Whoa, easy there. I wasn't trying to say ag pilots don't have skillz. I was just saying it's a totally different game than the majority of flying jobs.

Aside from the always-present risk of hitting an obstruction, I'm not aware of many things that can happen in ag flying to end one's career or create a smoking hole as a result of fatigue. There are certain elements, like you described, that are very complicated, but for the most part, it's a repetitive job in day VFR conditions.

 

[Henning]

Whoa, easy there. I wasn't trying to say ag pilots don't have skillz. I was just saying it's a totally different game than the majority of flying jobs.

Aside from the always-present risk of hitting an obstruction, I'm not aware of many things that can happen in ag flying to end one's career or create a smoking hole as a result of fatigue. There are certain elements, like you described, that are very complicated, but for the most part, it's a repetitive job in day VFR conditions.

About 1/3rd of my time is at night. Most all of the spray work in AZ & NM is done at night. Outside of hitting the ground, I can't think of another aviation event that leads to a smoking hole....

 

[jrhilliard]

About 1/3rd of my time is at night. Most all of the spray work in AZ & NM is done at night.

Ok, you win.

 

[Henning]

And so?

It means there is a lot of cockpit management.

 

[Everskyward]

The real problem remains. There just isn't enough $$s to get and support what we need.

That's true, especially when you are talking about a small flight school. The customers aren't willing to pay enough to create much revenue for the company. Therefore the company is not able to pay their instructors much or to give them many other benefits. That applies all the way up to people paying for seats on an airline these days. As a customer who has bought a lot of airline tickets recently I'm happy with the low prices, but I can see how it can become unsustainable.

 

[SkyHog]

Because, Nick, not everyone like to live their life ****ing off everyone around them.

If the FBO owner is ****ed at freelance CFI X, you think he won't make it known around the field. Difficult to rent. yada yada yada.

It's not necessary to **** off everyone, all the time.

To be clear (and by the way, calm down, and stop disrespecting me, I have never disrespected you):

If you want to run a business, you have to check with all of the neighboring businesses, in fear that you might upset them?

I wonder if CVS did that before they built a drugstore across the street from every Walgreens in ABQ. If not, I'm sure Walgreens was "****ed," and refuses to sell products to the CVS customers.

Or, more appropriately, I'm sure that the FBO checked with all the local CFIs before it opened its doors, right? Otherwise, the other CFIs might have been ****ed!

 

[SkyHog]

About 1/3rd of my time is at night. Most all of the spray work in AZ & NM is done at night. Outside of hitting the ground, I can't think of another aviation event that leads to a smoking hole....

Really, in NM? I've never seen that. (then again, I've never seen a cropduster in NM either, saw lots in AZ though....early morning).

 

[Ted]

Hehe, never flown Ag I take it. When it's on, it's on and as long as the wind and weather allow it, you fly.

And from people I've talked to flying in other realms, it's not just Ag.

Ag isn't flying. It's farming with an airplane

But seriously, it is. And I don't mean that in a negative way. It's just that the work environment and risk factors associated with ag spraying are completely different from more mainstream flying jobs like instructing, charters, or airlines.

I've never personally done ag flying, but I've dropped a lot of meat missiles (skydivers) and I'd imagine the two are similar. Day VFR, very repetitive. It has its moments, but you're not really dealing with managing a cockpit, talking to controllers, navigating, flying on instruments, etc. Those are the mentally intensive tasks I worry about screwing up when I think of flying fatigued.

Never flown Ag either, but I don't agree with what you at all.

Which sounds like a better day with the same number of flying hours: constant stick and rudder use going up and down or having to fly extremely precisely close to the ground, or a long IFR XC where the main things I have to do are set the autopilot, look for traffic, talk to controllers, change a few radio frequencies, and land the plane a few times. Oh, and I'm far above the ground. I left out deal with problems because that's universal. I'll take the long IFR XC, thank you. Ag flying or meat missiles? I see a lot more critical phases of flight (close to the ground, climbs/descents, time in the pattern, etc.), and therefore many more options for problems to go wrong with a lot less time to react. Flying on instruments? That's easy. Shooting approaches? That's more intensive, sure, but you're only doing that for a short period of time.

 

[SCCutler]

Ag flying looks like a blast. It also scares the bejeebers out of me.

Almost.. almost... as much as owing a small business, like (say) a flight school!

 

[jrhilliard]

And from people I've talked to flying in other realms, it's not just Ag.



Never flown Ag either, but I don't agree with what you at all.

Which sounds like a better day with the same number of flying hours: constant stick and rudder use going up and down or having to fly extremely precisely close to the ground, or a long IFR XC where the main things I have to do are set the autopilot, look for traffic, talk to controllers, change a few radio frequencies, and land the plane a few times. Oh, and I'm far above the ground. I left out deal with problems because that's universal. I'll take the long IFR XC, thank you. Ag flying or meat missiles? I see a lot more critical phases of flight (close to the ground, climbs/descents, time in the pattern, etc.), and therefore many more options for problems to go wrong with a lot less time to react. Flying on instruments? That's easy. Shooting approaches? That's more intensive, sure, but you're only doing that for a short period of time.

Maybe the accidents/incidents associated with fatigue during ag flying don't get reported, or if they get reported, aren't taken as seriously as other segments of the industry? I don't know.

All I know is that I never hear about accidents/incidents related to fatigue with ag operators, but I could easily list a dozen reports for problems that occurred during charter, cargo, or airline flights. It's the talk of the 121 world now, trying to revise the rest rules to keep crews from getting fatigued.

We can go back and forth with anecdotal evidence all day, but I think the real truth lies in hard numbers for what's happening in the real world as a result of fatigue.

 

[dmccormack]

We can go back and forth with anecdotal evidence all day, but I think the real truth lies in hard numbers for what's happening in the real world as a result of fatigue.

It's hard to fall asleep when you're on the edge. For some reason I don't get sleepy riding my liter bike.

 

[wabower]

I got a first-hand look at fatigue-induced errors at the end of an 11-hour flight from Bangor to Kuwait. A guy who is rock-solid as they come made a bonehead of enormous proportions by trying to reset the altimeter to inches (which in a G-V isn't just a knob twirl but also requires some mode button pushing) before I yelled at him. The effect of the mistake was -650' elevation, while we were preparing for 200 ' X 1/2 or less in a sandstorm. Splat.

Maybe the accidents/incidents associated with fatigue during ag flying don't get reported, or if they get reported, aren't taken as seriously as other segments of the industry? I don't know.

All I know is that I never hear about accidents/incidents related to fatigue with ag operators, but I could easily list a dozen reports for problems that occurred during charter, cargo, or airline flights. It's the talk of the 121 world now, trying to revise the rest rules to keep crews from getting fatigued.

We can go back and forth with anecdotal evidence all day, but I think the real truth lies in hard numbers for what's happening in the real world as a result of fatigue.

 

[Everskyward]

It's hard to fall asleep when you're on the edge. For some reason I don't get sleepy riding my liter bike.

I think that fatigue and sleepy are two different things, though. You are often sleepy when you are fatigued but your performance can be affected even if you are not feeling sleepy. I will agree, though, that long stretches of not doing much of anything are more conducive to sleepiness.

 

[taters]

=jrhilliard It's the talk of the 121 world now, trying to revise the rest rules to keep crews from getting fatigued.

I dont think a change in the rest "rules" will really solve anything. As long as there are pilots commuting to work, CDO or stand-up shifts, Hampton Inns etc. 4:00 AM show times that tear at your normal sleep and eating schedule (circadian rhythms) you will find yourself in a bad place from time to time... I overnight quite often and my company always gives me 10 hours minimum..I cant recall a good night sleep in any hotel I have stayed at in the last 3 years unless I was on vacation...there is no such thing as "mandatory sleep". I wish there was...

 

[dmccormack]

I think that fatigue and sleepy are two different things, though. You are often sleepy when you are fatigued but your performance can be affected even if you are not feeling sleepy. I will agree, though, that long stretches of not doing much of anything are more conducive to sleepiness.

Yep -- you can be very well rested and yet get "sleepy" (memories of certain classes...)

"Fatigue" is more pernicious yet has similar symptoms.

 

[jrhilliard]

I dont think a change in the rest "rules" will really solve anything. As long as there are pilots commuting to work, CDO or stand-up shifts, Hampton Inns etc. 4:00 AM show times that tear at your normal sleep and eating schedule (circadian rhythms) you will find yourself in a bad place from time to time... I overnight quite often and my company always gives me 10 hours minimum..I cant recall a good night sleep in any hotel I have stayed at in the last 3 years unless I was on vacation...there is no such thing as "mandatory sleep". I wish there was...

Agreed. Some of the many reasons why I'm not in the 121 rat race!

 

[taters]

I will agree, though, that long stretches of not doing much of anything are more conducive to sleepiness.

Anti-sleepy shield = Coffee and NDB tuned to Am talk radio ....love "Savage Nation" :smile:...Does wonders at 4:00AM when your lucky to even hear a lone freight dog check on the radio.

 

[dmccormack]

I cant recall a good night sleep in any hotel I have stayed at in the last 3 years unless I was on vacation...

I travelled quite a bit for about a 10 year stretch and learning how to sleep well in a hotel is a learned skill.

It's not home, has different sights, smells, textures, etc.

So the key is to have a set routine, and replicate your pattern at home.

The biggest impediment to sleep in hotel rooms is the stupid TV. Shut it off and read.

 

[Everskyward]

Agreed. Some of the many reasons why I'm not in the 121 rat race!

There are other avenues of aviation that will have you flying on the backside of the clock or switching back and forth which can be difficult. I work for a company which does air ambulance and on-demand charter and sometimes the on-demand part is in the middle of the night. I have moved on from the air ambulance and most of the charter and now fly businessfolk who, happily, travel at more reasonable hours.