Need Pro's/Con's of 'Flapped' landings

Dr. Bill

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Bill Mitchell
My 18 y.o. son is learning to fly. This is good! His instructor is teaching him to make all landings with 20 degrees of flaps. I'm a 40 degree/ full stall kind of guy. This drives me nuts. I'm staying appropriately quiet, but eventually he'll get his ticket, and I'm gonna be making the argument...

So, I'd like to see pro's and con's that I may not be giving full appreciation for. Here's what I got so far:

Pro's: It's designed to do it (POH)
It's slower, so crashes break less (equipment and crew)
Saves brakes
Saves tires
Runway efficiency (possibly clears rwy quicker)

Con's: Not as easy to grease'em in (takes more practice)
Always has extra speed built in for gusty conditions as needed
Fun to go fast close to ground
Easier to keep speed up than it is to go slow
Less chance for malfunction of control surface/apparatus

I'm up for learning, but I'm really looking for more ammo for the big intervention B) . And, I admit I have a bit of "I learned it this way so it must be right/best" to my logic.:rolleyes: But hey, I am right....;) :yes:
 
I was a 40 degree guy, then a 25 degree guy for about a year. Now I'm back to 40 degrees for the past 18 months or so. His CFI needs a beatdown.
 
im kind of a full flap every time guy. slowest possible touchdown is always the goal in my mind. it is afterall, just a big tricycle, or worse yet, a backwards tricycle!
 
Absent a compelling reason otherwise, full flaps for me.
 
Personally, I'd like the airplane to be going as slowly as practical when it hits the ground. I'm more likely to come over the fence with full flaps and partial power than I am with two notches and no power.
 
Pro's: It's designed to do it (POH)
It's slower, so crashes break less (equipment and crew)
Saves brakes
Saves tires
Runway efficiency (possibly clears rwy quicker)
Concur with all of these, as well as reducing the chance of runway overruns (maybe the biggest reason for making "full flaps" your normal landing configuration.

Con's: Not as easy to grease'em in (takes more practice)
I'm not sure that building more skill is a "con."
Always has extra speed built in for gusty conditions as needed
Disagree. If you fly the right speed for the configuration you're using, you have the same stall margin either way. Whether you're using flaps or no flaps, you should add half the gust factor to your "1.3 times stall speed in the actual landing configuration" approach speed.
Fun to go fast close to ground
Questionable importance.
Easier to keep speed up than it is to go slow
If you trim right, it's always easy to keep your speed where you want it.
Less chance for malfunction of control surface/apparatus
I don't think there's any validity to this statement, unless you're suggesting the slight increase in dynamic pressure between 1.3 Vs0 and 1.3 Vs1 is going to lead to control surface failure, in which case your airplane is probably no longer airworthy and shouldn't be flown until it's fixed.
 
Is this 20° thing a starting point because the CFI thinks there is a =training= benefit to starting out that way but plans on teaching him to land with all degrees of flaps?

If that's the case, either get over it or find him another instructor whose teaching style you don't like for another reason.

His CFI needs a beatdown.
:rolleyes:
 
I think I can take'em... Just in case, be looking for a fly-in to my home drome... Ya'll can hold his arms :D
I'll hold, you hit him. If a pilot wants to do it his way, okay it's his flight. But to be teaching this....

As Spike so aptly stated...full flaps unless compelling reason not too.
 
Mark, He's got 27 hrs, 7 of which is solo, and he's fixing to do a cross country solo. I don't think it's just a beginning training thing.

He's an adult, and it's really irrelevant if I like his instructors style or not, so I'm not worried about getting over it... I'm just building shelter for the eventual storm I know is just around the corner!

Thanks!
 
Sir Ron, thanks for your replies. I must admit I was grasping for straws when I was coming up with con's; hence they may seem tenuous. Having kids, I know how important it is to be prepared to think like your adversary... I get GREAT Father's Day Cards...!!
 
Mark, He's got 27 hrs, 7 of which is solo, and he's fixing to do a cross country solo. I don't think it's just a beginning training thing.

He's an adult, and it's really irrelevant if I like his instructors style or not, so I'm not worried about getting over it... I'm just building shelter for the eventual storm I know is just around the corner!

Thanks!
Well, why haven't you dragged him onto the board! We can all discuss it together.

BTW, I'm full flaps too, though sometimes on an ILS or a sim engine out I've been known to leave it at two notches when I have things nicely stabilized and plenty of room.
 
What matters is the airspeed he is training him to use. If the airspeed is higher than 1.3 Vso it may be something this CFI does because he'll rest a little easier as the student solos.

But I too believe in the law of primacy. 1.3 Vso and full flaps is the landing that my exhausted tired now new PVT ASEL pilot will use some late night, and it'll work.
 
My 18 y.o. son is learning to fly. This is good! His instructor is teaching him to make all landings with 20 degrees of flaps. I'm a 40 degree/ full stall kind of guy.
You didn't specify what type of airplane, but I assume it's a C-150 or 172.

For most airplanes I agree with "full flaps all the time." I landed my Cheetah with full flaps all the time, and do so now with my Bonanza -- except the two times when the flap motor quit. IMHO the C-150 and C-172, lightweight, relatively underpowered airplanes with oversized flaps, are exceptions.

Their manuals all say "[n]ormal landings are made power off with any flap setting" [emphasis added] I've flown both extensively since the 1960's, have owned both, and my experience is that their handling and control response in the flare is better at flaps 20-30 than at flaps 40.
It's slower, so crashes break less (equipment and crew)
Saves brakes
Saves tires
Is touchdown faster at flaps 20? More wear and tear on the gear and brakes? According to the C-150 manual there is a one mph (0.87 knot) difference between power-off stall at flaps 20 vs flaps 40. So if a proper approach speed is maintained on final, there will not be excessive float and the full-stall touchdown speed will be virtually the same as at flaps 40. I would routinely land my C-150F with flaps 20, gently on the mains with stall horn blaring, and hold the nose off until elevator power dissipated (longer than is possible at flaps 40) and the nose gear touched at a speed barely above a fast walk, and make the first turnoff with no braking or added power at all. I'd submit that's easier on the undercarriage (especially the relatively fragile nose gear). Less wear on the flap motor and flap tracks, too.

Runway efficiency (possibly clears rwy quicker)
Depends on the airport. If the first turnoff is 600 feet down the runway, full flaps may help. If like at my airport it's 1500 feet away, a full flap landing might slow things down, require the use of power to 'expedite' to the turnoff, and increase pilot workload.

At flaps 40 a Cessna 150 is not a healthy bird. In event of a balked landing drag is so great it ain't gonna climb worth beans until flaps are milked up to 20. (If you gotta go around at flaps 40 what do you do if the flap motor quits?) On approach with flaps 20 the potential pilot workload is decreased and safety margin increased.

At flaps 40 the airplane is more affected by gusty conditions, with less control response to deal with it. For crosswind landings the C-150 book calls for "minimum flap setting required for the field length," and the late Bill Thompson (former Cessna Manager of Flight Test & Aerodynamics, in his book Cessna -- Wings for The World, The Single-Engine Development Story, p. 41) said that was "for better rudder control."

Pro's: It's designed to do it (POH)
With regard to the C-150 and C-172 I don't buy that. The C-150 and C-172 are direct descendants of the C-140A and C-170A, respectively. Those models did just fine with the much smaller, plain flaps (of about the same chord as the ailerons) with which they were originally designed. The C-120, the low-cost version of the C-140, had no flaps at all. The "barn door" flaps were later adapted for the civilian models from the specialized, grossly overpowered L-19/O-1 Bird Dog. They give the C-150 and C-172 wonderful extra short-field capability, but they do not fundamentally change the way the basic designs were "meant" to be flown, as borne out by the "any flap setting" language in the manual. And I think it's telling that the factory limited flap travel to 30 degrees in the latest iterations of both designs (C-152 in 1978; C-172P through S since 1981). That the 30-degree limit allowed gross weight to be raised a little bit (70 lb on the C-152, even with a 10% increase in horsepower) suggests that full-flap performance was marginal to begin with.

Thompson wrote that he was initially unenthusiastic about the "projected low-performance C-150 with enlarged tail surfaces and more powerful flaps." So why did the C-150 have the big flaps?
"Our experience with tricycle gears on other airplanes, indicated that most low-time pilots use about 10-mph excess speed in the approach glide, and then they would float many hundreds of feet before touching down. Thus the C-150 would need lots of drag with big flaps."
[Thompson, p. 8]
I looked my old Piper Cherokee 140B manual. It says:
"The amount of flap used during landings and the speed of the aircraft at contact with the runway should be varied according to the landing surface and existing conditions, both windwise and loadwise. It is generally good practice to contact the ground at the minimum possible safe speed consistent with existing conditions.
"[...] In high wind conditions, particularly in strong crosswinds, it may be desirable to approach the ground at higher than normal speeds or with partial or no flaps."​
That said, please don't interpret my comments as disdain for the use of full flaps, and I certainly don't agree with training for only flaps 20 landings. The pilot should be profcient in all of the configurations as recommended by the manufacturer, so that he/she is familiar with all of the options available to complete a safe flight with minimal physical or emotional trauma to machine and occupants. Full flap? Partial flap? No flap? Sideslip? Forward slip? No slip? Oversquare or undersquare with a controllable prop? Wheel landing or full-stall in a taildragger? If it's recommended or permitted by the book (as it is in the case of the airplanes we're discussing), be familiar with it, know its advantages and disadvantages, and use your judgment to fly the way that is best for you under the circumstances.
 
I'm in the "as slow as practicable for the conditions camp". That is normally full flaps. If there is much cross wind or turbulence, it is less flaps. Higher speed equals more control authority. If full rudder won't keep you aligned with the runway, you need more speed. If it is turbulent, I may want more aileron authority. However, my primary instructor started me off landing with no flaps. I've never gone back to ask him why.
 
If the Cessna POH's were written by pilots rather than lawyers (I've had this discussion with Cessna's flight folks already), they might be more useful to pilots.
 
Pilawt, you make very good arguments, and I'm just going to play devil's advocate on one thing: It is true that the 150 and 172 only have a 1-2 kt difference in stall speed for no flaps and full flaps, but the argument could be made that it is not a good practice to get into because as you start flying more advanced aircraft, those stall speeds start to differ. It is easier to continue an ingrained behavior than to change one after you fly a more advanced aircraft.

That being said, I train in a 172N, which has a 40 deg setting. I typically only use that setting when doing a soft-field landing with calm winds. For most normal and short-field landings, I use 30 deg. The reason I use 30 instead of 40 is that the go-around procedure calls for full power, carb heat off, and flaps 20. You suffer less of a loss of lift going from 30-20 than you do from 40-20. I typically land a crosswind with 20 degrees of flap, so I won't be bounced around by the wind as much.

No matter what flap setting I use, my final approach speed for a normal landing is 65kias. Therefore, I don't buy the argument that full flaps gives you a slower touch-down speed, and less wear-and-tear, etc. For a given airspeed in a constant wind, your ground speed is going to be the same, no matter the flap setting. The only difference would be that it's easier to hold the airplane just off the runway with more flaps, which is why I do it with soft-field landings.

This is just the opinion of a humble (okay, maybe not so humble :) ) student, and if my interpretations are inaccurate in any way, please let me know as I'd like to correct any bad behaviors now before they become too ingrained.
 
Learning to approach and land with varying amount of flaps is crucial to knowing the airplane when use is restricted or under different wind conditions. But the practice to bring you as slow as possible should be the standard, meaning full flaps.

On the flip side of this, slow flight isn't taught nor practiced near enough. I wonder if this CFI pushes less flaps to avoid slow flight even on approach and landing?
 
From a legal point of view the POH should rule. What does it say?

Given the option I've never heard a compelling reason to use other than full flaps every time unless there is a specific reason not to do so.

Good reasons to use less than full flaps are because you're landing on a big runway at a busy airport and want to float down the runway to get closer to your turn off, or because there are gusty crosswinds.

Using partial flaps on every landing is bad practice in most ASEL types.
 
From a legal point of view the POH should rule. What does it say?

About the only thing in the POH that caries any legal implication is the limitations section. AFaIK no 172 "POH" includes any limitations WRT flap usage on landing (assuming you're not trying to land above Vfe).

Given the option I've never heard a compelling reason to use other than full flaps every time unless there is a specific reason not to do so.

Agree completely.

Good reasons to use less than full flaps are because you're landing on a big runway at a busy airport and want to float down the runway to get closer to your turn off, or because there are gusty crosswinds.

Certainly using zero flaps to allow for a higher approach and landing speed might be appropriate at a busy airport assuming much of that busyness is heavier/faster airplanes. But less flaps aren't going to help "float down the runway" and floating a long ways isn't the best way to land further down the runway (just aim further). And IME gusty crosswinds aren't more easily handled with partial flaps.[/quote]
 
Ice!!

But I am with you on the rest of it, I have never really found a good reason not to use full flaps.


You beat me to it! On an approach with possible icing you'll need the extra speed for energy management. I was taught that even with the lightest accumulation you shouldn't use them just. Is this correct?
 
I was taught partial flaps, the rationale being the last bit are always there if you need them. It made sense to me. Then I bought the Sundowner and found that landings were much smoother when flown with full flaps. Plus, full aft trim and full flaps would result in a nice 450fpm/65ias descent. So, now, I use full flaps unless wind conditions dictate otherwise. It works better in the T182 I now fly.
 
On an approach with possible icing you'll need the extra speed for energy management. I was taught that even with the lightest accumulation you shouldn't use them just. Is this correct?
Also, if ice has accumulated on the wings it is also on the horizontal tail. Putting down flaps changes the direction of the relative wind at the horizontal tail, which could then stall without warning (uncontrollable pitch-down) because of its ice-deformed shape. So the thinking is, if there's ice on the airplane, just leave the configuration as it is (flaps up) and deal with the devil you know rather than be surprised by the devil you don't know.
 
It's a good thing your son isn't training where I rent from... great place, but their policy for students is NO-FLAP landings in the C172 at 70 knots. The CFI's are required to teach it that way, and the students are expected to fly it that way. That's one of my very few beefs with this place... they really are a good FBO, school... have their act together. But I do have to shake my head on this one.

I'll have to scan a copy of their instruction/policy... but my car is at the shop right now, and the paperwork is in the trunk.
 
It's a good thing your son isn't training where I rent from... great place, but their policy for students is NO-FLAP landings in the C172 at 70 knots. The CFI's are required to teach it that way, and the students are expected to fly it that way. That's one of my very few beefs with this place... they really are a good FBO, school... have their act together. But I do have to shake my head on this one.
So will the DPE on the practical test.
 
Here's a concept for landings: Use the amount of flaps required in the POH for the given aircraft, runway, wind and other conditions. The 20* thing is just a short sighted, knee jerk response to safety concerns by some FBOs, some CFIs and some pilots because most light planes will still climb on a go around with the 20* of flaps forgotten to have been retracted.

The reality is not only will most GA planes climb with just the student pilot at even FULL* flaps but also, the practice of routinely using 20* leads to a "knee jerk safety habit" and the pilot then doesn't use full flaps on a soft field landing and noses in/or and over. I've seen it happen for real on the beach coupled with haze illusion, the owner/pilot was so shocked, saying he always used 20* flaps, even though he could quote his POA on the subject of full flaps for soft fields, while we waited beside my tent for a pickup truck to come drag his bent bird off the beach.
 
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I'm just going to play devil's advocate on one thing: It is true that the 150 and 172 only have a 1-2 kt difference in stall speed for no flaps and full flaps, but the argument could be made that it is not a good practice to get into because as you start flying more advanced aircraft, those stall speeds start to differ. It is easier to continue an ingrained behavior than to change one after you fly a more advanced aircraft.
A lot of procedures change as you move from one type of airplane to another, even in the same general performance class. Consistency is a good thing in general, but what works best in one type might not necessarily work best in another.
 
Well, tonight I did 1.1 solo hrs in the pattern, experimenting with various flap settings on approach. I did 11 circuits of the pattern... 10 landings and 1 go-around. The winds were 160/12 and I was using rwy 17. What I found was that I did have to use a good bit more crab/side-slip to correct for the cross-wind the more flaps I used. Surprisingly enough (to me, anyway), was that I had the softest touch-down with 10 deg. of flaps. I also found that 0 flap forward slips-to-land are the most fun you can have in the pattern :).
 
what speeds were you flying on final with the various flap settings?
 
For the normal and short-field landings, 65kias, max 30 deg. For the soft-field landings, 60 kias, 40 deg.
 
ok thats what i thought. you had bigger crab angle at higher flap settings because you were flying slower not because you had more flaps. easier to get smoother touchdown with 10 degrees because the sink rate is much lower so the transition to flare is much easier. did you do any slips with flaps (gasp!)? why were the 0 flap slips so much fun?
 
No, I obeyed the placard that said, "Avoid slips with flaps deployed." I'm not sure why the 0 flap slips were so fun, maybe it's because that's a maneuver that gave me trouble initially, but now I seem to have it licked. I think it's kind of fun to be in that unusual attitude on final, and having to balance between bank angle and rudder deflection.
 
No, I obeyed the placard that said, "Avoid slips with flaps deployed." I'm not sure why the 0 flap slips were so fun, maybe it's because that's a maneuver that gave me trouble initially, but now I seem to have it licked. I think it's kind of fun to be in that unusual attitude on final, and having to balance between bank angle and rudder deflection.

they are fun. fairly effective way to lose altitude. for real fun roll it over to 60 degrees, top rudder to the stop and stick back to keep the speed down. down you go, round and round...:D
 
they are fun. fairly effective way to lose altitude. for real fun roll it over to 60 degrees, top rudder to the stop and stick back to keep the speed down. down you go, round and round...:D

I'll have to try that out in the practice area sometime ;).
 
No, I obeyed the placard that said, "Avoid slips with flaps deployed."
While there's nothing wrong with following that advice (not "limitation" or "restriction"), keep in mind that if you ever go to a short, obstructed field, you'll have to ignore it. You can't get the best descent angle over an obstruction without a slip, and you can't keep your landing distance short without flaps. Remember that the "avoid slips..." placard relates only to an oscillatory mode which can (but rarely does) occur with a flaps-extended slip.

Now, I've done hundreds of slips in C-172's with flaps fully extended (including the older 40-flap models), and I've never run into that oscillation, but I know that if I do, all I need do is center the rudder and it will stop. And I've landed C-172's in some very short and obstructed fields by doing it -- fields I'd never have gotten into safely without a full-flap slip to a landing.
 
I'll have to try that out in the practice area sometime ;).

ive never done it in a 172, its pretty impressive in the supercub, but that has a lot more rudder authority
 
Yeah, I'm not sure how well that will work in a 172... especially the N models, which have very limited rudder authority... You can't even bank it while in slow flight just using the rudders. I was on my solo proficiency check with another instructor and he had me put it in slow flight, trim it out, and let go of the yoke, then tried to have me turn just using the rudders. I had full right rudder deflection and I was still banking left due to the tendency.
 
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