Need engine advice/help...

Jeff Creamer

Jeff Creamer

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May 19, 2017
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Georgia
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JJC
I'll try to keep this brief. But....
172K with the stock engine. We thought we were taking great care of the engine and plane. Recently replaced interior and added two G5's and the GFC 500 AP as well as new transponder and Garmin GPS (IFR).
We have had an oil leak for over a year that has been explained away many times. We got frustrated and asked another A&P to give us a second opinion. He found an obvious crack in the crank case near one of the bolts. The area is covered in oil. Honestly, I feel stupid for not seeing it myself. Regardless, we have been grounded until this is addressed. The engine has 1200 hours on it and we replaced the number 2 cylinder last year. It also needs a number 3 cylinder per the second opinion (42 compression on warm engine - other valves 58, 72, 76).
My question - what would you do? I would love to get a new engine and do the 180hp upgrade. But the estimate from Air Plains was $57,109 shipped to me.
This year (September) will be 20 years since the last overhaul. So based on dates, it's due.
Thanks for any advice. I love her. But she's been a money pit lately!
JC
 
A major overhaul even if the case can’t be repaired would be substantially cheaper than a new engine.
 
Jeff Creamer said:
I'll try to keep this brief. But....
172K with the stock engine. We thought we were taking great care of the engine and plane. Recently replaced interior and added two G5's and the GFC 500 AP as well as new transponder and Garmin GPS (IFR).
We have had an oil leak for over a year that has been explained away many times. We got frustrated and asked another A&P to give us a second opinion. He found an obvious crack in the crank case near one of the bolts. The area is covered in oil. Honestly, I feel stupid for not seeing it myself. Regardless, we have been grounded until this is addressed. The engine has 1200 hours on it and we replaced the number 2 cylinder last year. It also needs a number 3 cylinder per the second opinion (42 compression on warm engine - other valves 58, 72, 76).
My question - what would you do? I would love to get a new engine and do the 180hp upgrade. But the estimate from Air Plains was $57,109 shipped to me.
This year (September) will be 20 years since the last overhaul. So based on dates, it's due.
Thanks for any advice. I love her. But she's been a money pit lately!
JC
Click to expand...


I'd yank the prop and the crankshaft plug and see how corroded the ID of the drive end of the crank is before doing anything else. If the crankshaft is in any way in doubt of being serviceable (at proposed field overhaul) then that variable needs to be eliminated another way.

***Stage a recovery operation near Florida to intercept a used engine off the next round of totaled aircraft from hurricane season***
 
I have a Warrior with the 180HP STC. Had a big, hidden crack in my 1300 hour engine that also had a 0 compression cylinder, so I went with a “new” overhauled engine. Pen Yann was excellent to work with. Ultimately it was about $22,000 for a swapped, overhauled engine plus $2300 or so for the cracked case.

I suggest understanding the real costs. Price out an actual apples-to-apples swap. Then see what it would cost to upgrade to 180HP. There may be more than you think: the plane needs rebalancing (for mine it was moving the battery from under the bench seat to in the tail), there may (or may not) be new oil hoses and cooler, engine mounts, etc.

Bottom line, if you’re just looking to get back to what you thought you had, $28,000 is probably a rough estimate, with a Pen Yann overhaul trade, consideration for the damaged case, and install costs. Upgrading to 180HP is a different, separate story.
 
Is this conversion done with a new engine or did you overhaul your engine and then add the conversion? Who did this for you and what advantages did you see in the 10 extra horsepower?
 
You should be able to find a case without too much trouble. Call CSI in Sand Springs, OK. They do great work and have some cores on hand. I just sold them an IO360 case. They have many. Second choice would be Divco in Tulsa.

Once you have a case in hand start peeling the onion. A good shop for field overhauls can do a great job if you can stand the downtime. Parts are hard to get right now. My Mooney was down the first half of the year with many parts procurement delays. Superior cylinders are economical and good quality or send your cylinders to SAL in Prosper, Tx. Excellent cylinder shop. He will inspect them for no charge and will be honest about whether or not he can make good cylinders for you.

For bearings, gaskets, cams, lifters, etc, use Aircraftspecialties in Tulsa. They are an excellent source although their machine shop stays back logged about six weeks.They have exchange crankshafts available which can shorten the downtime.

if it’s a Lycoming talk to Dave at Aircraftspecialties right away and get him to put you on the list for NEW Lycoming lifter bodies or an entire cam kit. This will be a great mod to help stave off the common Lycoming cam and lifter failure.

if your mags have been serviced lately reuse them. Same for starter, alternator, etc. A qualified,detail oriented local aircraft engine mechanic can give you an outstanding result for less money.

Going through my Mooney engine this way cost less than $20K and was done by a meticulous engine builder. This included fresh Slicks. I expect that I saved some because I did the leg work sourcing parts and such. BTW, this was a zero time overhaul.
 
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"...Going through my Mooney engine this way cost less than $20K and was done by a meticulous engine builder. This included fresh Slicks. I expect that I saved some because I did the leg work sourcing parts and such. BTW, this was a zero time overhaul."

I thought that only the OEM could rebuild to "zero time" status...
 
Nope, he can do a zero time field major overhaul. There is different terminology for the manufacturers like “remanufactured” or something. There are certain various components that must be replaced with new in order to be zeroed. Various items, like valve retainers, rod bolts and various other things. If the criteria is not met, it is supposed to be logged as a repair.

My first Mooney had a 300 hour “since new” and it had come from Lycoming. I have seen it written, but have not confirmed, that an engine from Lycoming with that label can actually have components that were remachined old components and still get that label.
 
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@Jeff Creamer another more cost effective option for more power is overhauling your existing O-320-E2D with one of the STC’s available which increase compression from 7:1 to 8:1 (if memory serving correctly) boosting the engine to 160HP and still Mogas range for 91 octane. These STC’s are much cheaper. Then add the PowerFlow exhaust kit for another 18-20 HP. I trained in a buddy’s 172M with this configuration and the performance was remarkable. Nickson or Divco can assess the case if it’s repairable or needs a new half.

Many of these small compression upgrades for this engine have been performed with only a logbook entry since many consider this a minor and major upgrade. The STC from RAM was about $300 last time I looked.

if you’re looking for a new engine with more power, the Ram STC may be a good fit. They Replace 150 hp - E2D with 160 hp - D2J version all new engine.

The full 180HP upgrade options are great, but VERY expensive. Most everything surrounding the engine needs upgrading as well like a new engine mount and prop, etc.

If you’re set on upgrading to O-360, also shop Kenmore Air’s STC SA87NW 172 180HP upgrade: http://www.kenmoreairharbor.com/stcs.html
 
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