Need advice (topic: buying a plane)

Your in luck, It's back on the market

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961...527020?pt=Motors_Aircraft&hash=item20bd19a16c

160MPH at 12GPH, 800 miles no problem, with 4 aboard.

165-170 with 2 aboard full fuel, at 12GPH

Getting the gear out of the wind pays off in speed.

Thank you! Questions:

963lbs payload? that sound pretty low... or is it after fuel?

So this basically looks like a 182RG?

Seems pretty old... what do you find attractive about this particular plane?
 
The two kids is a bonus. It's not important enough to justify a major cost increase. I only mention it because having started to look at 182's, I see some with child seats in the back.
...but then you give up your baggage area and you have the problem of how an adult is to reach those kids for "servicing." Also, those "child seats" are not going to take much more than a toddler.

I'm a little confused though. The 182's have 1100-1200lbs payload
Useful load, yes, but not payload. Load up enough gas for 800 sm (probably full long-range tanks), and probably all the payload you have left is enough for four adults and not much baggage at all. You need to check the W&B sheets for some real 182's, because I don't think you'll find many with empty weights in the 1200-1300 lb range.

EDIT: as far as prices go, I don't care about listing prices... I'm looking at what is actually selling, and it seems like for $50K (or so) I can afford a 182P in decent shape.
That's probably a good choice for you right now, but don't expect to be able to go 800sm with four adults in it, and you'll be leaving the kids home.

BTW, 135 KTAS is a realistic cruise speed burning around 12 gph. You can probably get 140 KTAS, but that will raise the burn to 14 gph, and that's a range-defeating tradeoff.
 
963lbs payload? that sound pretty low... or is it after fuel?
"Useful load" is max gross minus empty weight, and is the max total of fuel, baggage, and people. "Payload" is people and baggage, and will vary depending on how much fuel you carry. 963 lb payload is in the ballpark for a 182 with full fuel.
 
...and your point is? I don't see any real empty weight data there on aircraft of the vintage which would sell for $50K and the mfr.'s "standard" empty weights of that era are totally unrealistically low, usually by 150 lb or more for aircraft in the 182 class.

I'm not entirely certain what you folks are saying, but I did write the seller and that 963 is after fuel (people + luggage). Having read more about the 210, that is apparently its big benefit over the 182.
 
Just be sure to factor in the cost of insurance (how much do you want) cost of annuals and just general maintenance and upkeep. Don't blow your whole wad on just the plane. :)

Some friends were going to buy a plane together and the cost of the insurance alone made them back out. Just reminding....
 
I'm not entirely certain what you folks are saying, but I did write the seller and that 963 is after fuel (people + luggage). Having read more about the 210, that is apparently its big benefit over the 182.
The 210 is a whole lot more airplane -- size, complexity, etc. It's both "high performance" and "complex" which tends to scare insurers when talking to a low-experience, non-IR pilot. And yes, that 963 after fuel would be "payload.". I'm still thinking 182 now, and 210 (or its fixed gear cousin, the 206) later, after you get your IR and a couple years' experience in the 182.

And what I was saying about "standard" empty weights and useful loads prior to the 90's is that the mfrs used to "low-ball" the empty weights by leaving out everything not legally required for Day VFR operations, like radios, gyro instruments, landing lights, etc. By the time you put in all the stuff folks would normally install in something like a 182, the empty weight would go up (and the useful load would go down) by maybe 150 lb from the "standard" weights shown in the marketing brochures. At that point, you've basically lost one passenger worth of useful load, turning 4-seaters like the 172 into 3-person planes, and 182's into much shorter range aircraft with four adults and baggage aboard).
 
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Tas far as prices go, I don't care about listing prices...

Don't mean to hijack but I am curious what insight experienced plane purchasers have on the difference between listing price and actual selling price?
 
Fair enough.

Fly short-to-medium distances (say up to 800m - enough for me to get from SF to Seattle, Salt Lake City, maybe Denver at a stretch, but more typically San Diego, Las Vegas, Portland OR and so on) without having to spend an entire day doing it. Rarely fly longer for fun, but still be able to complete a flight between coasts without considering it torture.

Fly with four adults on board. Bonus if I can carry a couple kids extra (so a 182 with one or two child seats in the back is an excellent option). A 172 won't do this, but having now spent some time looking into the 182 following some responses here, I have really warmed up to some of the extras.

Fly IFR (I also intend to do my IFR training on it).

Not sure what else to think about.


800 miles is a loooong way. Expect to spend the majoraty of a day on it, expect to make a stop as most people can't hold it that long.

Here are some real 182 numbers for mine:
Useful load (fuel, pilot, passengers, baggage) 1250lbs
Fuel burn (less for reduced power for-the-heck-of-it flying) 12.5 Gal/hr, flight plan at 13 for extra wiggle room
Speed, 130kts true is a fair average
Fuel capacity 88 gal useable


As you can see I'm not taking 4 adults and bags 800miles with out a stop, but that's ok, I don't want to sit still for that long either.

Put a stop at the midway point to streatch legs and pee (add an hour for each stop) and you are around 7hrs to make your trip.


FWIW I don't think a 172 meats your goals as a 182 is at the ragged edge of them but probably the best you can do with your (and my) budget

Edit: data point for coast to coast travel

Cincinnati to airport little west of Denver = full day in the saddle. Coas to coast would be two days to avoid pushing myself too hard.
 
Useful load (fuel, pilot, passengers, baggage) 1250lbs

Dang you and your 3100 lb MGTOW. ;)

You beat me by 116 lbs.

1/28/2011
Empty weight: 1815.9
Empty CG: 36.00"
New useful load: 1134.1
New moment: 65468.47
Max weight: 2950
 
4 adults, bags, kids, and 800 miles isn't going to happen in a 182 or any RV. You're going to need something big and expensive. You'd look good in a Kingair.
 
Dang you and your 3100 lb MGTOW. ;)

You beat me by 116 lbs.

1/28/2011
Empty weight: 1815.9
Empty CG: 36.00"
New useful load: 1134.1
New moment: 65468.47
Max weight: 2950
And if you bought a scrap of paper you could beat me out by 35lbs:rofl:

Dang you and your avability of the autogas STC;)
 
And if you bought a scrap of paper you could beat me out by 35lbs:rofl:

True. True. I think we probably will eventually.

Dang you and your avability of the autogas STC;)

That's been harder to utilize than my co-owners imagined. One of our co-owners just loves the idea of cheap gas and we now have a crazy jury-rigged setup with 55 gallon military bladder tanks, a 12V pump, hoses, filter, and all that stuff and gave it its first wet-run last weekend. It worked. A couple of leaks. Took three of us to mess with it. Could be done alone with a lot of time/effort. Two people is perfect.

We pumped 49 gal of 91 octane non-ethanol, from one of two places we've found that will sell to the public around here, into the bird.

Only one is open on Saturday and is 60 miles round-trip. The other is closer, weekdays only.

So far, he's up to $800 worth of pumping and carting gear and we're saving $1/gallon. It'd take a lot of flying to make that up and any fuel-ups away from home make that even longer.

That math plus the cost of the STC doesn't work out, business-wise, but it's a fun experiment/hobby to mess with, I guess.

What we need is a beater pickup truck with a bed-tank. That'd work but would completely blow the budget to the point it's *really* just a hobby.

One other concern is that MoGas doesn't store well for long.

But at least you could stuff the hose in the tank of the pickup and all your cars at home when it came time to "rotate" the fuel stock. :rofl: :D

I always look for airports claiming to have MoGas on long X-C's. The number doesn't seem to be climbing and they're never on my route of flight. :)
 
4 adults, bags, kids, and 800 miles isn't going to happen in a 182 or any RV. You're going to need something big and expensive. You'd look good in a Kingair.

4 adults, 100 lbs of bags and enough fuel for 500 miles will happen in an RV-10 (max gross 2700lbs)... at nearly 200 MPH ;) Lose some pax and/or bags so you can carry full fuel, and you can get 800 mile range in it.
However, you're looking at typically the $160-200K price range for such a beast depending on how elaborately it is equipped, and there are not very many of them for sale on the open market, usually only one or two at a time.

I learned in Cessnas, owned a Cherokee for a decade, then helped a friend build an RV-8 and have been flying it for a little over a year, including 2 trips to Oshkosh. It cruises at 205 MPH @ 75% power and 10.5 GPH. I sold the Cherokee and will never own a factory spamcan again. There's more than 7000 RVs completed and flying today, so to summarily dismiss them as an oddball curiosity is just wrong. They are a seriously viable airplane choice.
 
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Yeah, mogas for a plane is less and less pratical.

I think a Q with the up gross would be great, get the 3100lb take off, the slower spinning U engine (quieter, I actually can tell) and call me crazy but I like the wet wings.

And unlike my R you get a wider CG range when under 2950.

That or an old narrow body, light, simple and fast.
 
RVs are a viable airplane, but the one that meets his mission is out of his budget.
 
RVs are a viable airplane, but the one that meets his mission is out of his budget.

Yep, I should've included as long as your mission profile fits the RVs... most of which are two-seaters.

Twins (e.g Piper Aztruck) that will haul four adults plus luggage are a dime a dozen right now, but fuel burn and insurance will eat your lunch.
 
Yep, I should've included as long as your mission profile fits the RVs... most of which are two-seaters.

Twins (e.g Piper Aztruck) that will haul four adults plus luggage are a dime a dozen right now, but fuel burn and insurance will eat your lunch.

Uh huh, I'm thinking of a two seat EAB in the not to distant future. RVs are off the list because they are two practical of an airplane for what I want :rofl:
 
I know to avoid the 172N because of the engine reliability issues on that one.

My 172N just went to TBO + 100hrs without a single piece of engine work ever done on it. No top overhaul, no cam issues, no valve issues, oil analysis was always v.good. Just had it overhauled by Penn Yan and have pictures of the old cam and lifters, they were like new with only slight wear and no sign of pitting. It started 1st time...every time, was smooth and compressions were all 77+. The only reason I had it overhauled was that it was over TBO and I had the money to do it. :dunno:
 
Argh.

Thanks for the feedback... four adults is for the shorter flights with no bags, longer ones are with one passenger. So the 182 will do just fine (as will a power-modded 172, although at this point I stopped looking at those).

I do think that 210A that Tom-D pointed out could work - it has a very nice payload and performance. But that's a plane I never even heard of before... is it crazy to be looking at a 1961 model?
 
My 172N just went to TBO + 100hrs without a single piece of engine work ever done on it. No top overhaul, no cam issues, no valve issues, oil analysis was always v.good. Just had it overhauled by Penn Yan and have pictures of the old cam and lifters, they were like new with only slight wear and no sign of pitting. It started 1st time...every time, was smooth and compressions were all 77+. The only reason I had it overhauled was that it was over TBO and I had the money to do it. :dunno:

Heck we had one go 1000 beyond TBO and only pulled it off because we had a spare engine and it was a slow week.

Cam was DOA, very worn, 6 of 8 lifters spauled etc.

Still made rated power, and no metal in oil.
 
182 or 210 will do the job fine. No, it's not crazy to look at a 1961 model - the planes I fly are a '68 and '69, and a number of us fly planes even older. I would personally emphasize looking at a complex if possible. You could probably even look at something like a V-tail Bonanza and do well with that. Those are pretty darn efficient.
 
V-tails are high on the bang for the buck scale too. Not the biggest of the Bos but the one I flew had a quite child friendly jump seat in a usable baggage area.

Never looked at UL and all that however.
 
Argh.

Thanks for the feedback... four adults is for the shorter flights with no bags, longer ones are with one passenger. So the 182 will do just fine (as will a power-modded 172, although at this point I stopped looking at those).

I do think that 210A that Tom-D pointed out could work - it has a very nice payload and performance. But that's a plane I never even heard of before... is it crazy to be looking at a 1961 model?

NO.........!

Age has very little to do with it, material condition has every thing to do with it.

For your budget the early 210 is perfect, @ $80k you could buy a nice clean 210 at half your budget and use the other half to upgrade the aircraft to your liking. and save the $$$$ for a maintenance cushion.

my advice,, go fly one see what you think.
 
V-tails are high on the bang for the buck scale too. Not the biggest of the Bos but the one I flew had a quite child friendly jump seat in a usable baggage area.

Never looked at UL and all that however.

Mine is 1967 V35 Bonanza, and it has 1290 lbs UL. The only problem with V-tails is that it's pretty easy to load it beyond aft CG limit. Also, as you burn fuel, CG is also shifting aft, so you have to be really careful with your calculation. Mine has 3-bladed prop, so it helps a little.

However, for $50K you'll be looking at 1960 (M35) or older. They are also good airplanes, but have rather complicated fuel system. If you extend your budget to $65-70K you will be able to buy a good S35 or V35 (with mid-high time engine), or a very good P35 (with mid-time engine).

Early 210 sounds like a good option too, though. The only thing I don't like about them is interior and "shotgun" panel...
 
Early 210 sounds like a good option too, though. The only thing I don't like about them is interior and "shotgun" panel...

This particular one that tom-d linked here says it has a "king audio panel"? does anyone know what those are? is this a replacement for this "shotgun"?
 
This particular one that tom-d linked here says it has a "king audio panel"? does anyone know what those are? is this a replacement for this "shotgun"?

It's just an audio panel - the one you use to switch Com1/Com2, etc...
 
"shotgun"-style panel - is when you don't have a standard six-pack. All instruments are randomly placed in a panel instead (not even aligned)...
 
Early 210 sounds like a good option too, though. The only thing I don't like about them is interior and "shotgun" panel...
But if it's the only thing you fly you'll get used to it. I've flown a number of older airplanes with shotgun panels and after a while it seems normal.
 
But if it's the only thing you fly you'll get used to it. I've flown a number of older airplanes with shotgun panels and after a while it seems normal.

Agreed. I've flown so many different panel styles, I really don't care what I hop in and fly anymore. Get used to it, even better.

That said, you for yourself might choose a nicer panel layout just for your own reasons. But, no reason why you can't upgrade the panel as funds allow.
 
I just come across "Cessna 182 Skylane Safety Highlights" on AOPA web site. Interesting reading for anyone who considers C182 :rolleyes:
 

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I just come across "Cessna 182 Skylane Safety Highlights" on AOPA web site. Interesting reading for anyone who considers C182 :rolleyes:

Having a few hundred hours in these planes that is a fine description.

EDIT add on:

I only know of three gotchas for 182s so long as they are opperated within spec (gross weight, TO distance no ice etc)

1) Icemaker O470s on the 182-182R, carb temp guage a good idea and proper use of carb heat makes it a non issue. Starting with the S a fuel injected engine was installed reducing the chances of ice related power reduction.
2) In the interests of having the cargo compartment useable the CG is forward with no cargo and empty rear seats, don't let the heavy flare supprise you. This isn't unusualy as you step into bigger planes, you aren't flying a 172 anymore.
3) Water in the fuel system. Flush mounted caps on older models allowed water into the tanks. Impropper installation of fuel bladders can result in wrinkles preventing the water from draining during preflight. Planes with "killer caps" should have umbrella type caps installed and bladder equiped planes should be checked for wrinkles. Cessna "solved" the problem with the Q model with the move to a wet wing. Solve in quotes because some folks don't like the mess/labor involved in repairing them when they leak, as all fuel tanks will eventualy.
 
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The three big high priorities for the 182, EGT, Carb temp, and monarch fuel cap/covers
 
Having a few hundred hours in these planes that is a fine description.

EDIT add on:

I only know of three gotchas for 182s so long as they are opperated within spec (gross weight, TO distance no ice etc)

1) Icemaker O470s on the 182-182R, carb temp guage a good idea and proper use of carb heat makes it a non issue. Starting with the S a fuel injected engine was installed reducing the chances of ice related power reduction.

There are also some differences between model letters of the O-470, most notably the jump from the "S" to the "U" around 1976 (?), the "U" turns slower with higher compression, and heavy and light cases, etc. There are fans of all of the variants, really. O-470's a big dumb lug of an engine that won't fly LOP at all unless you're god-awful lucky and like beading with partial carb heat in cruise.

The "S" he refers to is the C-182S which since Cessna was bought by Textron, Lycoming's parent company, it would have been politically incorrect to hang a Telledyne Continental on the nose. The Lycoming is fuel-injected and derated from it's maximum possible power to match the horsepower of the Continental so Cessna didn't have to re-certify the aircraft.

The Lycoming can be operated LOP like most injected engines.

2) In the interests of having the cargo compartment useable the CG is forward with no cargo and empty rear seats, don't let the heavy flare supprise you. This isn't unusualy as you step into bigger planes, you aren't flying a 172 anymore.

Trim, trim, trim... Trim some more. ;)

Really hamfisted pilots whack the nosegear down hard enough to pay for a minor Skylane weakness, that big heavy engine out front is hung from the firewall as is the nosegear bracketed to it.

Wrinkling the firewall is an expensive thing to fix and happens when you slam the nosegear on or fly onto the runway nosegear first and push down wheelbarrow-style. Proper flare technique and touching down with the weight on the mains is required.

As he said, it's not a Skyhawk. ;)

3) Water in the fuel system. Flush mounted caps on older models allowed water into the tanks. Impropper installation of fuel bladders can result in wrinkles preventing the water from draining during preflight. Planes with "killer caps" should have umbrella type caps installed and bladder equiped planes should be checked for wrinkles. Cessna "solved" the problem with the Q model with the move to a wet wing. Solve in quotes because some folks don't like the mess/labor involved in repairing them when they leak, as all fuel tanks will eventualy.

The Cessna "umbrella" caps also work fine if well-maintained and the rubber grommet on top and the orange silicone vent are kept in good shape. The Monarch STC is nice but not 100% necessary. The recessed "push outward to seal" caps are the killers. Only one owner in a recent CPA "legacy" C-182 tech course still had them on his aircraft, and was going home with the intent of replacing them after what he learned in the course. (By the way, the course is highly recommended. It's a steal for the price and you learn a ton about maintaining your 182.)

Bladder tanks on the older birds all eventually fail and must be replaced. We had a premature failure of our left tank at 7 years, and replaced it this year with an Eagle. Current warranty is 10 years, when ours was purchased prior to us owning the aircraft, 5 years. Competition has heated up. Plan $3000 all-in with labor to buy one and replace it. If the bladders are more than 10 years old, especially. The original bladders in our airplane went almost 20 years according to the logs and failed within one year of each other, the second set, one went 7 and the other is still going so far.

You'll know when they go. Blue all over the side of the aircraft and a puddle on the floor. Messy.

Our mechanic likes Eagle bladders, but there are other options. We were okay with Eagle.

Eagle also makes an STCd fuel drain that is built better than the originals, and we installed one with the bladder and put the other on the shelf for when the right bladder eventually fails. It's nicer than the originals and worth the extra $150 for the pair.

Thing to watch on the pre-buy... Often mechanics change a bladder and don't replace the little rubber hoses that go from the tank to the fuselage. We had leaks in those prior to the left bladder failure on both sides and replaced all of them.

Same problem with rear air vent tubing and avionics cooling tubing and other rubber, tubes, etc... all over the aircraft. The stuff is 30+ years old - replace it. Get the orange scat stuff and do it right.

Baffles are another thing to look at carefully with the cowl off. Should be flexible and not folded over or cut.

Another common expensive item: Carb air box and door. Keep it in good condition and get the $150 stiffeners/braces from I believe, McFarlane. The box cracks, it's $4000 or more to replace. The cowl pushes on it and deforms it. Stiffeners solve the problem. Cheap. Do it.

Cowl flap hinges. If you let them get bad, the flap will depart the aircraft and probably beat a few holes in the fuselage before the control cable linkage lets go. It'll be a minimum $5000 in repair costs. Replacement hinges from McFarlane are about $150. Another simple fix if you're ahead of it.

Lighting: the models with cowl-mounted landing/taxi lights burn out at a horrendous rate due to being mounted where engine vibration is the worst.

Options include finding a friendly FSDO that'll let you substitue 100 hour halogen bulbs for "safety" reasons, LED bulbs, or HID bulbs.

We haven't done ours yet, but we're tired of changing bulbs. There are some drawbacks to LED, but they're far better than burnt out bulbs. Far cheaper than HID and less problems with noise from a ballast. HID are awesomely bright though. So pick your poison but the 25-hour tractor bulbs Cessna put on our bird were the cheapest thing the could find 35 years ago and they're outdated now.

Both work well with a flasher system, might as well install one of those for daytime use too, once you're not counting the minutes of "on" time with a halogen.

There's more but that's enough for now...

Oh, one way to get the carb temp gauge as well as individual CHT/EGT, fuel totalizer, and other goodies is to add a JPI. It's on our wish list. Easier/cheaper to install at engine overhaul time but not hideous in between engine cycles.
 
Fellow I know came up with what he calls the RTV trick for the cowl flap hinges.

He impregnates the hinge with RTV, this prevents the vibration damage that makes them fail but still provides the needed flex to open and close.
 
Fellow I know came up with what he calls the RTV trick for the cowl flap hinges.

He impregnates the hinge with RTV, this prevents the vibration damage that makes them fail but still provides the needed flex to open and close.

That's interesting. I guess it'd keep loose ones from departing the airplane for a long time. Many are so worn (maybe ours included... they're getting there) that this'd work. I'm sure they were tighter in 1975.

The replacements aren't *that* expensive, but someone's gotta rivet 'em onto the cowl flaps.

New cowl flaps... scary expensive.
 
So, guys... let's say I may be in position to acquire the plane tom-d pointed out earlier. Let's say it's in decent condition (although somewhat higher hours than quoted in the ad), but had been flown very little for the past 15 years.

What do y'all think? yes, I know buying a plane isn't entirely rational, or makes sense financially, and all of that. I'm doing it for the soul - there is something tremendously appealing about owning one (I have no clue why). This plane does seem to fit my mission reasonably well. I don't know of this is the right plane, but it's possible.

What do you think of this one as a starter plane of sorts? (while I am chatting to a couple other owners about similar planes, too, since this one was linked here I am using it as the example)

I'm still quite nervous about the age of the frame and the implied age of the technology involved in an aircraft this old. At the same time, it's likely that I will trade up at some point in the future (5-10 years).

What should I think about? is it easy to find a mechanic for these? how about an instructor that can teach me it for insurance? I am in the SF east bay, any pointers?

Thanks all.
 
I'm still quite nervous about the age of the frame and the implied age of the technology involved in an aircraft this old. At the same time, it's likely that I will trade up at some point in the future (5-10 years).
Thanks all.

Cessna used the same rivets and sheet stock to build all their single engine line from 1946 to 2011, not much changed.

the age of metal isn't much of a issue. other material condition can be checked out.,
 
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